Catholics believe abortion is okay

[concerneduser]

How can a catholic believe that an abortion is not the murder of an unborn person?..I know of a catholic who believes this, and even goes to church every sunday. They claim anti abortionist blow the situation out of proportion and make it seem worse then it is and talks about money in the situation. How can this be so? The fact is that anti abortion organizations are mostly founded by different church groups, and that pro abortion people are the one’s backing up the million dollar abortion hospitals and doctors. This person buys the ‘third trimester’ deal in terms of when an unborn baby becomes a human, and believes that is when it gets it’s soul. Any suggestions to help get this person back on track or do they seem hopeless like I am afraid of?
-Please pray for me and this person
-Thank you

 

[concerneduser]

How can a catholic believe that an abortion is not the murder of an unborn person?..I know of a catholic who believes this, and even goes to church every sunday. They claim anti abortionist blow the situation out of proportion and make it seem worse then it is and talks about money in the situation. How can this be so? The fact is that anti abortion organizations are mostly founded by different church groups, and that pro abortion people are the one’s backing up the million dollar abortion hospitals and doctors. This person buys the ‘third trimester’ deal in terms of when an unborn baby becomes a human, and believes that is when it gets it’s soul. Any suggestions to help get this person back on track or do they seem hopeless like I am afraid of?
-Please pray for me and this person
-Thank you
…I also posted this under apologetics…not sure where to post it

 

[Newbie2]

So they’ve destroyed the “soul-less embryo” and there’s nothing wrong with that?

It’s never hopeless…pray for their understanding, and keep up the discussions.

 

[FanChan]

I think one can look to scriptures for this. Straight to the story of Mary and Elizabeth. Mary was a few weeks pregnant, if that, when she came to Elizabeth, who was just entering her third trimester. John leapt in the womb - suggesting that John had awareness, he knew that the Christ was near. Which in and of itself suggests that Christ was there in Mary’s womb. Not just a little bundle of tissue, but the fully incarnated Christ.

 

[DavidFilmer]

This person buys the ‘third trimester’ deal in terms of when an unborn baby becomes a human, and believes that is when it gets it’s soul.

Ask him why he believes this. Is there any scientific evidence? Why should the third trimester be any different than the first two?

If he believes the baby “becomes human” at the third trimester, ask what species it was before the third trimester. All living things belong to some species. So what species did the baby belong to during the first two trimesters? Was it a tuna? A flower? (hint: humans beget humans - the baby never “becomes” human - it *starts out *that way).

 

[D_M]

Hi,

A catholic who performs an abortion is automatically excommunicated from the church.

Canon law: Can. 1398 A person who procures a completed abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.

The church has not set down an infallible definition, to my knowledge, as to when life actually begins, however, she does traditionally hold that life begins at conception and that is what we ought to follow.

Scripture that points to life beginning at conception:

Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the wom I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

Luke 1:42-43 and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

← if the soul didn’t enter the child until the end of the pregnancy, then how does Elizabeth, speaking by the Holy Ghost, say that Mary is the mother of the Lord when Mary had only just conceived?

Genesis 16:4-11 And he went in to Hagar, and she conceived; and when she saw that she had conceived, she looked with contempt on her mistress. … The angel of the Lord also said to her, “I will so greatly multiply your descendants that they cannot be numbered for multitude.” And the angel of the Lord said to her, "Behold, you are with child, and shall bear a son; you shall call his name Ishmael; because the Lord has given heed to your affliction.

← Hagar had only just conceived and yet the angel tells her that ‘you are with child’

The third trimester argument is very silly… how much flesh does a person need in order to become a person? We believe that human beings are human beings not on the basis of how much flesh they have, but on the immaterial soul that is given to them.

Besides that, even if the soul didn’t enter the human until some later point in the pregnancy after conception, is there anyone who would be so rash as to think they would know exactly when the soul entered or not? If there is simply a possibility that the fetus is a human being, even if we somehow didn’t know when the soul supposedly entered it after conception, then an abortion must not happen… if you don’t know, then don’t do it! Even from that perspective, it is still insane to think that abortion is permissible because you are implicitly accepting the possibility that you may be killing someone.

(anyone can say this herself if she chooses)

Lord, help concerneduser and the person he/she is referring to in the OP. We ask that you bring that person, and all such persons in such circumstances, to know the truth concerning abortion. We ask this, if it is your will, in Jesus’ name, Amen.

God Bless,

 

[Texas_Roofer]

FYI = Supreme Court Roe v Wade

3. The common law. It is undisputed that, at common law, abortion performed before “quickening” – the first recognizable movement of the fetus in utero, appearing usually from the 16th to the 18th week of pregnancy [n20] – was not an indictable offense. [n21] The absence [p133] of a common law crime for pre-quickening abortion appears to have developed from a confluence of earlier philosophical, theological, and civil and canon law concepts of when life begins. These disciplines variously approached the question in terms of the point at which the embryo or fetus became “formed” or recognizably human, or in terms of when a “person” came into being, that is,* infused with a “soul” or “animated.” **A loose consensus evolved in early English law that these events occurred at some point between conception and live birth. [n22] This was “mediate animation.” Although [p134] Christian theology and the canon law came to fix the point of animation at 40 days for a male and 80 days for a female, a view that persisted until the 19th century, there was otherwise little agreement about the precise time of formation or animation. There was agreement, however, that, prior to this point, the fetus was to be regarded as part of the mother, and its destruction, therefore, was not homicide. Due to continued uncertainty about the precise time when animation occurred, to the lack of any empirical basis for the 40-80-day view, and perhaps to Aquinas’ definition of movement as one of the two first principles of life, Bracton focused upon quickening as the critical point. The significance of quickening was echoed by later common law scholars, and found its way into the received common law in this country.

Whether abortion of a quick fetus was a felony at common law, or even a lesser crime, is still disputed. Bracton, writing early in the 13th century, thought it homicide. [n23] But the later and predominant view, following the great common law scholars, has been that it was, at most, a lesser offense. In a frequently cited [p135] passage, Coke took the position that abortion of a woman “quick with childe” is “a great misprision, and no murder.” [n24] Blackstone followed, saying that, while abortion after quickening had once been considered manslaughter (though not murder), “modern law” took a less severe view. [n25] A recent review of the common law precedents argues, however, that those precedents contradict Coke, and that even post-quickening abortion was never established as a common law crime. [n26] This is of some importance, because, while most American courts ruled, in holding or dictum, that abortion of an unquickened fetus was not criminal under their received common law, [n27] others followed Coke in stating that abortion [p136] of a quick fetus was a “misprision,” a term they translated to mean “misdemeanor.” [n28] That their reliance on Coke on this aspect of the law was uncritical and, apparently in all the reported cases, dictum (due probably to the paucity of common law prosecutions for post-quickening abortion), makes it now appear doubtful that abortion was ever firmly established as a common law crime even with respect to the destruction of a quick fetus.*

law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0410_0113_ZO.html

I am not supporting the statement only referencing it to your original question

 

[Michael_Prophet]

Actually the question of when life begins is a moot point. Abortion is wrong because it is a selfish act, in fact it is one of the most selfish acts a women can commit. It disregards the feelings of the father, the grandparents, the other family members, the community, and the world. A women getting an abortion is putting herself in front of, and making her desires more important than everyone and everything else in the world. Even if it were not taking a human life it would still be a major sin.
Mike

 

[Lancer]

Below are four excerpts from the CCC. DM has offered some excellent biblical truth and apologetic reasoning/logic–and prayerful support. I would only add (re: the issue of when life begins)…that** science (doctors / AMA–American Medical Association/many others) have unequivocally stated that human life begins at conception:
**(below is from the pro-life site --Abort73.com)
abort73.com/HTML/I-A-1-medical.html
**"**The official Senate report reached this conclusion:

Physicians, biologists, and other scientists agree that ***conception ***marks the ***beginning of the life of a human being *- a being that is alive and is a member of the human species. There is overwhelming agreement on this point in countless medical, biological, and scientific writings.
This, of course, should come as no surprise since the American Medical Association (AMA) declared as far back as 1857 (referenced in the Roe. v. Wade opinion) that "the independent and actual existence of the child before birth, as a living being” is a matter of objective science. They deplored the “popular ignorance…that the foetus is not alive till after the period of quickening.” **

Doctors knew it during the 1800’s and doctors know it today. Human life begins at conception.

​

I believe that the Church has never doctrinally/definitively said that the spirit-soul is infused at conception…but the below CCC excerpts (along with DM’s scripture references) surely lead to the most likely correct answer…at conception.363 In Sacred Scripture the term “soul” often refers to human *life *or the entire human person.230 But “soul” also refers to the innermost aspect of man, that which is of greatest value in him,231 that by which he is most especially in God’s image: “soul” signifies the spiritual principle in man.
1703 Endowed with “a spiritual and immortal” soul,5 the human person is "the only creature on earth that God has willed for its own sake."6 From his conception, he is destined for eternal beatitude.
**1711 **Endowed with a spiritual soul, with intellect and with free will, ***the human person is from his very conception ordered to God and destined for eternal beatitude. ***He pursues his perfection in “seeking and loving what is true and good” (*GS *15 § 2).
1718 The Beatitudes respond to the natural desire for happiness. This desire is of divine origin: God has placed it in the human heart in order to draw man to the One who alone can fulfill it: We all want to live happily; in the whole human race there is no one who does not assent to this proposition, even before it is fully articulated. How is it, then, that I seek you, Lord? Since in seeking you, my God, I seek a happy life, let me seek you so that my soul may live, **for my body draws life from my soul **and my soul draws life from you.
**God alone satisfies. **
In any case…the Church has always taught from the times of the Apostles that abortion is grave evil/sin…irregardless of science and when life begins or the spirit-soul is infused (note: both St. Augustine and St.Thomas Aquinas taught that abortion is always evil even though scientifically they were in the dark about life at conception…no matter what lies/errors Senator (now VP) Joe Biden or Speaker Nancy Pelosi say about what these two great Saints taught) :
Didache
The Lord’s Teaching Through the Twelve Apostles to the Nations. (written by apostles between the years 50 - 120 AD)

(Chapter 2. The Second Commandment: Grave Sin Forbidden. And the second commandment of the Teaching; You shall not commit murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not commit pederasty, you shall not commit fornication, you shall not steal, you shall not practice magic, you shall not practice witchcraft, you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill that which is born.
​

Hope some of this helps.
Pax Christi

 

[kyria]

How can a catholic believe that an abortion is not the murder of an unborn person-

Being Catholic and going to regular Sunday mass doesn’t mean a person has truly converted in their hearts to the laws of God. Many don’t understand some of our teachings and why we have them, they do not understand these teachings stem from God and that we have them in place to minimise man’s separation from God and to bring man closer to God and salvation.

Many believe in God, worship God, but not all know God in their hearts.

Example was I used to be a contracepting Catholic until I was given the grace of God to start to feel his laws in my heart and see the connection between Catholic teachings and God. Before that I knew that contraception was against Church teachings, but didn’t realise it was against God.

Many Sunday church goers also don’t necessarily partake in regular Confession and thus do not receive the grace from this sacrament that assists one to move more closer to God, and become closer to Him and his laws in their hearts.

And this person appears ignorant of when life begins and how it develops and looks like in the womb. If more people got to see images of a fetus in gestation, they would clearly see a baby, even in the first trimester. The amount of people who have told me it is simply a lump of tissue until at least 12wks is amazing.

I heard a story from a Catholic who did some part time counselling on a phone line for people contemplating abortion, and was surprised to receive calls from Catholics thinking about a termination.

I am sure the Pro-life movement can assist you with some information to bring this person to the truth that abortion is wrong and why, and you can pray for this person’s heart to become more in tune with God’s laws.

 

[thistle]

How can a catholic believe that an abortion is not the murder of an unborn person?..I know of a catholic who believes this, and even goes to church every sunday. They claim anti abortionist blow the situation out of proportion and make it seem worse then it is and talks about money in the situation. How can this be so? The fact is that anti abortion organizations are mostly founded by different church groups, and that pro abortion people are the one’s backing up the million dollar abortion hospitals and doctors. This person buys the ‘third trimester’ deal in terms of when an unborn baby becomes a human, and believes that is when it gets it’s soul. Any suggestions to help get this person back on track or do they seem hopeless like I am afraid of?
-Please pray for me and this person
-Thank you
…I also posted this under apologetics…not sure where to post it

Its not new that abortion is evil and considered murder.
In the Didache (teachings of the Apostles) written around 70AD to 100AD:

Chapter 2. The Second Commandment: Grave Sin Forbidden. And the second commandment of the Teaching; You shall not commit murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not commit pederasty, you shall not commit fornication, you shall not steal, you shall not practice magic, you shall not practice witchcraft, you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill that which is born. You shall not covet the things of your neighbor, you shall not swear, you shall not bear false witness, you shall not speak evil, you shall bear no grudge. You shall not be double-minded nor double-tongued, for to be double-tongued is a snare of death. Your speech shall not be false, nor empty, but fulfilled by deed. You shall not be covetous, nor rapacious, nor a hypocrite, nor evil disposed, nor haughty. You shall not take evil counsel against your neighbor. You shall not hate any man; but some you shall reprove, and concerning some you shall pray, and some you shall love more than your own life.