Catholics Can Be Pro-Choice?

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The term “pro-life” and the term “pro-choice” are not directly opposed;
The terms are mortal enemies of each other.
rather, they function in relation to two different sets of oppositions. One may be “pro-choice” and “pro-life” simultaneously.
One cannot because, the common understanding of the term “pro-choice” is “pro-abortion” or “pro-death” which is directly opposite the term “pro-life”. Common usage in a given linguistic system is an important and necessary consideration.
Likewise, one can be opposed to abortion (“pro-life”) and opposed to violent categorical prohibition (“pro-choice”).
No, one cannot support allowing others the freedom or the choice to murder one another.
 
My position is that, at least in relation to this issue, federal legislation is neither an effective nor a productive answer. It is really not that important to me. If you want to spend your time supporting or opposing federal abortion bans, feel free. To me, that is not what is important.
I as a heretical Protestant do not often visit these parts. But I do feel compelled to address a couple of points.

In the abortion issue today, federal legislation to outlaw abortion is not on the table. Therefore this statement is a non-starter.

The issues on the table today are:
(1) Whether abortion is a Constitutional Right, or whether the people through their elected state government have the right to determine the status of abortion.
(2) Certain legislation, mostly on a state level, to regulate certain practices and impose certain limits on the practice of abortion.

None of these issues have anything to do with imposing federal bans on abortion.

In fact none of these issues have anything to do with “pro choice”.

Even if the constitution is correctly interpreted to allow states to determine the status of abortion, there will not be a federal ban on abortion.

And if the good folks of (say) the state of Mississippi decide that the practice of abortion should be illegal in their state, that is their right to do so. The state of (say) California, does not necessarily have to follow suit.

Now back to your debate.
 
The terms are mortal enemies of each other.

One cannot because, the common understanding of the term “pro-choice” is “pro-abortion” or “pro-death” which is directly opposite the term “pro-life”. Common usage in a given linguistic system is an important and necessary consideration.

No, one cannot support allowing others the freedom or the choice to murder one another.
I agree. We cannot support allowing others the freedom or the choice to murder one another. We don’t allow that for born individuals so why should we allow it for unborn individuals?
 
It is a choice.
Of course it is a choice. Murder is a choice – no one is compelled to commit murder. The same with rape, bank robbery and so on.

They are choices, but they are henious, immoral choices.
The proper response is not to attempt to in some way prevent people from having opportunities to make morally significant choices. Rather, the proper response is to encourage people to make good choices when they are faced with morally significant ones.
So we should not attempt to prevent people from committing murder, burglary and so on?

If that’s so, why do you lock your doors?
I thought about this, and thought about mentioning something about it. However, I do not think it is entirely the case. “Pro-choice” is primarily a statement of position on a legal question: should the law be used to categorically deny women reproductive choice? I know many people who are opposed to abortion but do not think prohibition is the answer.
The law should be used to categorically deny people the right to murder the innocent. If you disagree with that, why are you not lobbying to have laws against murder repealed?
However, the term “pro-choice” has also become associated with the idea that abortions are somehow good and desirable. I do not know many people who think this way, but I know a very few. If that is the way you think of the terms, then sure, the “pro-choice” label is not particularly helpful. I am not particularly attached to it. What is important to me is the recognition that one can be opposed to abortion but also opposed to particular bill X to legally ban it in some fashion.
When you say murder is not murder, you are perilously close to saying abortion is a good thing.
My position is that, at least in relation to this issue, federal legislation is neither an effective nor a productive answer. It is really not that important to me. If you want to spend your time supporting or opposing federal abortion bans, feel free. To me, that is not what is important.

But the fact that I am not adamant about an abortion ban does not mean I am “in favor of abortion” or “support murder” or anything like that.
Frankly, I think you have rationalized the issue away.
 
Based on St. Thomas Aquinas’ Summa Theologica, and explained in Article 6 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, an individual’s conscience is one’s highest moral authority. The role of the Church is not to compel obedience, but rather to “form” one’s conscience in alignment with God’s will.

By exercising one’s conscience, i.e., CHOOSING right over wrong, one utilizes God-given FREE WILL. Therefore, the Catholic Church is officially PRO CHOICE, and its PRO LIFE position is what the Church teaches should be the choice.

In other words, the Church says, “CHOOSE LIFE” … which one cannot do unless one HAS the choice.
This logic demotes the Church from Moral Authority to Suggestion Giver.
 
vern humphrey:
The law should be used to categorically deny people the right to murder the innocent. If you disagree with that, why are you not lobbying to have laws against murder repealed?
Why would I lobby to have laws against murder repealed? I have better things to do with my time. I could, for example, work in my community so that children are raised in loving, functional families where they are taught not to murder and have the context of support from which to act accordingly. Or I could, for example, work in my community with those who have already made a choice to murder someone, helping them make sense of their life and placing them in situations where they can experience caring relationships and can offer caring relationships to others, make a living, and break the cycle whereby our society too often drives them to repeat the same poor decision a second time.

The laws are interesting, I suppose, but the real issues are elsewhere.
vern humphrey:
When you say murder is not murder, you are perilously close to saying abortion is a good thing.
Whew. Good thing I didn’t say that. 😉
vern humphrey:
Frankly, I think you have rationalized the issue away.
You are free to think that, of course. But I am not sure where you are coming from. You oppose abortion. You think ways R, S, and T of opposing abortion are good strategies. I am opposed to abortion. I think ways X, Y, and Z of opposing abortion are good strategies. So now I am “perilously close” to saying abortion is a good thing? I am opposed to all those who are “pro-life”? I have “rationalized the issue away”? Hardly.
 
Why would I lobby to have laws against murder repealed?
So you are only against some murders? Only some people should have the protection of the law?

If all of us do not have equal protection of the law – which the 14th Amendment requires – then none of us have such protection. We live only at the sufferance of the government.
 
vern humphrey:
So you are only against some murders?
I have explained a number of times that this is a blatant misrepresentation of my position. It is difficult to carry on a productive (and respectful) conversation when you continue to make these sorts of suggestions, despite full knowledge that they are erroneous. 😦
vern humphrey:
Only some people should have the protection of the law?

If all of us do not have equal protection of the law – which the 14th Amendment requires – then none of us have such protection. We live only at the sufferance of the government.
The law prevents rich and poor alike from sleeping under bridges, right? :rolleyes:

I have a number of concerns. First, my concern is that the law has a history of being used to oppress and exploit, not just to affirm and liberate. Second, my concern is that in relation to this issue specifically that has been the case. Reproductive rights are not reducible to a single concern, important as it may be (namely, the life of the fetus). Rather, they are embroiled in a long, determining context of patriarchal violence against women, of which the law has been a primary instrument. Third, I am not convinced that such laws would be prudent, given their actual effects on the lives of those for whom we ostensibly have compassion when we advocate for such laws. Fourth, the law is a strictly peripheral concern relative to substantive issue of the lives of those who make such decisions. Etc., etc., etc.

The point, however, is not to get into a debate over whether prohibiting abortion on the federal level is a good idea, or prohibiting it on the state level is a good idea, or going on pro-life prayer walks is a good idea, or funding ministries to pregnant teens is a good idea, or anything like that. The point is that it is completely possible and sensible for one to be “pro-life” (in this specific sense: that one opposes abortion) and at the same time “pro-choice” (in this specific sense: that one does not advocate the creation of laws which would categorically prohibit abortions (if you do not like the term “pro-choice” here, please substitute whatever term you find more palatable)).
 
I have explained a number of times that this is a blatant misrepresentation of my position.
Do you agree that the murder of a helpless child is as henious as the murder of an adult?

And that it’s just as henious if the child is White, Black, Jew, Catholic, Protestant, born or unborn?
 
I have a number of concerns. First, my concern is that the law has a history of being used to oppress and exploit, not just to affirm and liberate.
This may be true but it is surely irrelevant to the question of whether abortion should be illegal.
Second, my concern is that in relation to this issue specifically that has been the case. Reproductive rights are not reducible to a single concern, important as it may be (namely, the life of the fetus). Rather, they are embroiled in a long, determining context of patriarchal violence against women, of which the law has been a primary instrument.
The discussion is not about “reproductive rights” - whatever that vague term means - but about what the law should say about the termination of the life of a fetus. Unspecific references to “patriarchal violence” are irrelevant as well: past misdeeds by one group do not justify current misdeeds by another.
Third, I am not convinced that such laws would be prudent, given their actual effects on the lives of those for whom we ostensibly have compassion when we advocate for such laws.
OK, this one has legs; let’s elaborate on it. What are the actual effects on (all of) the people involved?
Fourth, the law is a strictly peripheral concern relative to substantive issue of the lives of those who make such decisions.
It would be more than a peripheral concern to those who execute the abortions.
The point is that it is completely possible and sensible for one to be “pro-life” (in this specific sense: that one opposes abortion) and at the same time “pro-choice” (in this specific sense: that one does not advocate the creation of laws which would categorically prohibit abortions (if you do not like the term “pro-choice” here, please substitute whatever term you find more palatable)).
I’m still struggling to understand your opposition to making abortion illegal. Is it because you don’t think it would result in fewer abortions or because fewer abortions is not the most important concern?

Ender
 
Do any pro-lifers notice a trend? Every time there’s an election, you vote pro-life, and then at the next election you get to vote pro-life AGAIN because nothing was actually done about abortion.

How many Republicans do you have to go through before you realize it’s campaign rhetoric?

The day abortion becomes illegal is the day the Republican Party comes to an end. Really.

Mike
 
Do any pro-lifers notice a trend? Every time there’s an election, you vote pro-life, and then at the next election you get to vote pro-life AGAIN because nothing was actually done about abortion.

How many Republicans do you have to go through before you realize it’s campaign rhetoric?

The day abortion becomes illegal is the day the Republican Party comes to an end. Really.

Mike
And the day poverty comes to an end is the day all the poverty program bureaucrats get fired.😉

The fact is, we have made progress. The most recent numbers show abortion is down – as low as it’s ever been since statistics have been kept. We have managed to pass – and have the Court uphold – a partial birth abortion band.

The fact that progress is slow shouldn’t be used to support the idea that we might as well vote for pro-abortion politicians – that is an idea foisted off by the pro-abortion crowd.
 
And the day poverty comes to an end is the day all the poverty program bureaucrats get fired.😉

The fact is, we have made progress. The most recent numbers show abortion is down – as low as it’s ever been since statistics have been kept. We have managed to pass – and have the Court uphold – a partial birth abortion band.

The fact that progress is slow shouldn’t be used to support the idea that we might as well vote for pro-abortion politicians – that is an idea foisted off by the pro-abortion crowd.
I’m not suggesting you should vote pro-choice. But, a “yes” vote to pro-life is a “no” vote to Democratic social programs that ALSO potentially save a lot of lives.

So, can’t you make them an ultimatum or something? I’m just wondering…
 
I’m not suggesting you should vote pro-choice. But, a “yes” vote to pro-life is a “no” vote to Democratic social programs that ALSO potentially save a lot of lives.
That “potential” has been there since the Johnson Administration, and the balance sheet is in the red. We didn’t save lives by promoting out-of-wedlock births, drug abuse and crime while failing to educate the poor.
So, can’t you make them an ultimatum or something? I’m just wondering…
Yes we can make them an ultimatum – by voting for pro-life candidates only. If you self-identify as a Democrat, purge your party. Work to deny nomination to pro-choice candidates, and recruit and support pro-life candidates.
 
Ender,

Thank you for your thoughtful post. I have been thinking the issue over, trying to clarify my position to myself and figure out how to communicate it to you (and others). Perhaps this time around I will be clearer.

First, I have no ultimate objection to people dying. I am saddened by death, and some sorts of death sadden me more than others (the deaths of those to whom I am close, for example, or the deaths of children). I am angered by some deaths more than others (the deaths of those who are killed as innocent, for example, or the victims of war). But when it ultimately comes down to it, I view death as an important part of life, and I think that any attempt to prevent and stave off all death by whatever means possible is misguided and harmful. (And as Christians, what do we have to fear?)

For this reason, I am not willing to let the notion of “saving a life” trump all other concerns. I will not, to use an extreme and silly example, vote for a bill that would earmark $2 trillion annually for the federal government to find all persons who are homeless and station 24-hour bodyguards with them so as to prevent them from being killed. I appreciate the value of life, and the way that our society sweeps certain people under the rug and allows them to be abused angers me, but I don’t think that particular strategy is the answer.

It matters to me how things are done. In terms you are probably familiar with: I care about the means, not just the ends. (Incidentally, one thing that has been attracting me to the Catholic Church is the liturgy, wherein there is tremendous care taken with how we worship.)

When it comes to abortion, my first opinion is one you probably all share: ideally, I would prefer if no one were to choose to have an abortion. In that case, a law would not even make any effective sense, right? There would be nothing to prohibit. I realize this is not the way things are, of course. Given that it is not the way things are, how am I going to respond to the real situation in which I find myself?

As I mentioned, there are any number of approaches that I think are good ideas. In our town, we recently had a large get-together devoted to prayer about the abortion issue – praying that people would make better choices, that doctors would give up the practice, etc. I do not know anyone who is pregnant, but I suspect that one of the single most effective deterrents to abortion would be the counsel of close friends and family members. I also think we live in a culture where life is commodified and no longer viewed as sacred (see, for example, the industrial food complex… ::shudders:: ). I think that working to cultivate a sense of respect and awe for life in myself and in those around me goes a long way toward addressing the issue of abortion. I could go on and on with examples of strategies that I think are productive, but you get the picture.

Now what about the law? Well, go back to my position that how things are done matters. There are a million concerns in relation to the law, of course. For example, I would support overturning Roe v Wade, because I think that these legal decisions should be made at a local level (the state level, although more localized would probably be better) rather than a federal level.

What about the legal prohibition of abortion specifically, on whatever level we are considering? As I said before, I don’t support it. I do not think it is a good way to address the issue. (Of course, I am not running around adamantly opposing it, either – if there were a ban, it probably would not do that much harm, and might do some incidental good.) Why not? In the first place, we are not dealing with a bunch of cold-hearted killers and sociopaths here, but rather with women (and men) who find themselves in deeply vulnerable, emotional, and complex situations. I do not think that waving the blunt billy-club of the law in their face, threatening them with imprisonment or capital punishment or whatever, is a proper way to approach and deal with them. In the second place, I recognize that we are working within a cultural context wherein the law has all too often worked toward the oppression and exploitation of women at the hands of men, and that the issues surrounding sexual intercourse (including rape), pregnancy, child-bearing, child-rearing, and so forth have been a big part of that. I do not feel comfortable wielding a weapon with that immanent history in this situation. (I know that you disagree; that is fine with me. We don’t have to agree on this point.) In the third place, I think that prohibitions may lead to a great deal of problems (think, for example, of all the problems caused by the prohibition of drugs), and for that reason may be an imprudent approach. Finally, I think the law is at best a sort of “band-aid” on the problem. Perhaps having a prohibition would make some conservatives feel better about themselves and their country or something like that, but the real issue is that people are making choices to kill their unborn child (fetus). If we [try to] stop them at the last second, we are at best merely dealing with symptoms, not with the disease.

So take all of those considerations, roll them together, and you have someone (me) who is not convinced that prohibiting abortion is a great idea.

(Continued in next post)
 
(Continued from previous post)

Also, I should say something that I have not yet said in this thread: I am not convinced that a fetus is a human person. It seems entirely clear to me that a newborn baby is a human person, and it seems likewise clear to me that an egg or sperm cell is not a human person. Somewhere between the two a baby child emerges. I rather honestly have no idea where that point is (although it seems pretty apparent that it is earlier in the process than later). In my mind, this does not affect my position on the issue much, but some of you may find it a good excuse to write off everything I say (“Oh, no wonder he is so messed up! He doesn’t even know for certain that a zygote is equivalent to a newborn!”). Also, I am not one of these people who think that life is only worthwhile if it is human life. Whether a zygote is qualitatively identical to a newborn baby or not, I believe it is a sacred and beautiful creation, and do not think it should be killed.

I hope that helps, Ender (and others, too). I look forward to hearing what you have to say in return.
 
It seems entirely clear to me that a newborn baby is a human person,
Correct.
and it seems likewise clear to me that an egg or sperm cell is not a human person.
Again, correct.
Somewhere between the two a baby child emerges. I rather honestly have no idea where that point is (although it seems pretty apparent that it is earlier in the process than later).
It occurs when the sperm fertilizes the egg – what we call conception.

Get a copy of the National Geographic DVD, In The Womb. You’ll be amazed at how early the heart starts beating, and how early the unborn child begins to behave like a human.

And ponder this – a serial killer, caught red-handed, would be entitled to a trial. We’d have to prove him guilty, and consider him innocent until then.

Shouldn’t the unborn child have at least that much? If you don’t know when he becomes human, shouldn’t you err on his side, give him the benefit of the doubt?
 
If you don’t know when he becomes human, shouldn’t you err on his side, give him the benefit of the doubt?
I don’t know that it matters, if I am opposed to abortion regardless. There is no “erring” involved, except in acting as though I know something I don’t.
 
I view death as an important part of life, and I think that any attempt to prevent and stave off all death by whatever means possible is misguided and harmful.
This view muddles together two very different aspects of life. From a medical treatment aspect I agree with you. I am content with a natural death; dying is part of living. From a criminal standpoint however, I disagree completely. Being killed by someone else is not a natural part of life and should be strenuously opposed. It would be hard to defend any society that was indifferent to the casual murder of its citizens.
For this reason, I am not willing to let the notion of “saving a life” trump all other concerns.
There are rational limits that have to be applied in every situation but you again apply a vague, undefined inference to address a real issue. I think if your approach was more rigorous you would find your position harder even in your own mind to support - a good indication that you haven’t sufficiently grappled with all the implications of your position.
I think that working to cultivate a sense of respect and awe for life in myself and in those around me goes a long way toward addressing the issue of abortion.
The law is a teacher; if the law does not respect the right of the unborn that works against the cultivation of a “sense of respect and awe for life.”
if there were a ban, it probably would not do that much harm, and might do some incidental good.
I’ll ask a direct question: if abortion was illegal do you think the incidence of abortion would go down or stay the same?
we are not dealing with a bunch of cold-hearted killers and sociopaths here, but rather with women (and men) who find themselves in deeply vulnerable, emotional, and complex situations.
Some are but I think you overestimate the number in that category.
I do not think that waving the blunt billy-club of the law in their face, threatening them with imprisonment or capital punishment or whatever, is a proper way to approach and deal with them.
The mothers do not face these threats, only the abortionists.
I recognize that we are working within a cultural context wherein the law has all too often worked toward the oppression and exploitation of women at the hands of men
A law banning abortion is either a good idea or a bad one and to that determination the past is utterly irrelevant. This objection has no traction at all.
I think that prohibitions may lead to a great deal of problems (think, for example, of all the problems caused by the prohibition of drugs), and for that reason may be an imprudent approach.
Of course this would cause problems for some. The real question is whether you should be allowed to kill another human being to make your life simpler.
the real issue is that people are making choices to kill their unborn child (fetus). If we [try to] stop them at the last second, we are at best merely dealing with symptoms, not with the disease.
A lot of people run away from the objective fact of what an abortion is. There may be innumerable reasons why women end up with unwanted pregnancies but that doesn’t change the fact that by having an abortion the woman resolves her dilemma by ending the life of an innocent human being. No problem can be justifiably resolved that way.

Ender
 
Ender,

Though I appreciate you willingness to discuss the issue with me, I feel as though in some places, you are not really listening to or understanding what I am saying. I’ll try to address the questions and comments in the order you offered them; hopefully that will clear some things up for both of us.
This view muddles together two very different aspects of life. From a medical treatment aspect I agree with you. I am content with a natural death; dying is part of living. From a criminal standpoint however, I disagree completely. Being killed by someone else is not a natural part of life and should be strenuously opposed. It would be hard to defend any society that was indifferent to the casual murder of its citizens.
Technically, I would say that killing and being killed is a natural part of life, and has been since before humans were even on the scene. Nevertheless, I oppose murder, as I have said a number of times. And, as I have said a number of times, I in no way advocate or defend a society that is indifferent to murder in general or abortion in particular.
There are rational limits that have to be applied in every situation but you again apply a vague, undefined inference to address a real issue. I think if your approach was more rigorous you would find your position harder even in your own mind to support - a good indication that you haven’t sufficiently grappled with all the implications of your position.
I am well aware that I have not exhausted the full potential for thought in relation to this issue, my current position, and its implications. Of course, neither have you. 😉 Hence, our discussion.
The law is a teacher; if the law does not respect the right of the unborn that works against the cultivation of a “sense of respect and awe for life.”
Now this is completely foreign to me. The law is a teacher? What does that mean? Does the fact that the law does not mandate that everyone be Catholic “work against the cultivation” of the Catholic faith?
I’ll ask a direct question: if abortion was illegal do you think the incidence of abortion would go down or stay the same?
I would be fairly confident guessing that the incidence of abortion would go down (as it has been been for many years now).
we are not dealing with a bunch of cold-hearted killers and sociopaths here, but rather with women (and men) who find themselves in deeply vulnerable, emotional, and complex situations.
Some are but I think you overestimate the number in that category.

I have no firsthand experience, but I would be fairly confident asserting that pregnancy is a vulnerable, emotional, and complex situation.
I do not think that waving the blunt billy-club of the law in their face, threatening them with imprisonment or capital punishment or whatever, is a proper way to approach and deal with them.
The mothers do not face these threats, only the abortionists.

A prohibition on abortion would not prohibit having one, only performing one?
I recognize that we are working within a cultural context wherein the law has all too often worked toward the oppression and exploitation of women at the hands of men
A law banning abortion is either a good idea or a bad one and to that determination the past is utterly irrelevant.

On this point I will have to simply disagree with you. The past is utterly irrelevant to current social institutions and practices? If that is what you believe, perhaps we should start another thread on that question (although I am surprised that any Catholic would believe that).
I think that prohibitions may lead to a great deal of problems (think, for example, of all the problems caused by the prohibition of drugs), and for that reason may be an imprudent approach.
Of course this would cause problems for some. The real question is whether you should be allowed to kill another human being to make your life simpler.

If you will look over my post again, you will see that we are not talking about whether I should be allowed to kill another human being to make my life simpler, so that is not the “real question.”
There may be innumerable reasons why women end up with unwanted pregnancies but that doesn’t change the fact that by having an abortion the woman resolves her dilemma by ending the life of an innocent human being. No problem can be justifiably resolved that way.
That is a great reason to oppose abortion, but you are preaching to the proverbial choir by saying this.
 
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