Catholics can get Christened by any Christian pastor in any Church

[thirddec]

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html

WOW I read this and My hair stood on end; i’m not your lets all get back to latin ; or get the women in veils type but this is such a carte blanche to really get started on manipulating church docrines. It is so incideous that it will need deciphering. Already I am starting to cut for later pasting and following questioning in threads some very worrying passages. This is only the starting point as suggested by someone on another thread so It will be interesting what else this leads me too.

I’m begining to think all the discussions about superficial moves to traditional practice like encouraging Latin and changing the rites is a distraction from the real dangers.

I feel a torrent comming my way I hope I don’t drown

BTW I agree on working for better relations between Christians but not on these terms that look more like a dignified surrender than an honest discusion based on what we as catholics have always believed.

 

[thirddec]

DECREE ON ECUMENISM
UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO

For men who believe in Christ and have been** truly baptized **are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect.

Am I reading this right that according to this document any Baptism is a true baptism so if I can’t get a good date at the local Catholic Church and theres a free spot at the local Baptist Church thats fine as the are all true baptisms. ?

If this is wrong then surely there is confusion in this sentence in the Decree

 

[TrueLight]

DECREE ON ECUMENISM
UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO

For men who believe in Christ and have been** truly baptized **are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect.

Am I reading this right that according to this document any Baptism is a true baptism so if I can’t get a good date at the local Catholic Church and theres a free spot at the local Baptist Church thats fine as the are all true baptisms. ?

If this is wrong then surely there is confusion in this sentence in the Decree

I read that to mean anyone who believes in Christ and is baptized in his church, has a valid baptism. I don’t see why a Catholic would want to be baptized in a church that is in imperfect communion.

 

[LoyalViews]

DECREE ON ECUMENISM
UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO

For men who believe in Christ and have been** truly baptized **are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect.

Am I reading this right that according to this document any Baptism is a true baptism so if I can’t get a good date at the local Catholic Church and theres a free spot at the local Baptist Church thats fine as the are all true baptisms. ?

If this is wrong then surely there is confusion in this sentence in the Decree

Only a Trinitarian baptism is valid and true. But, if you are wanting to get baptised in the Catholic church, then they should, and will make time for your baptism. You shouldn’t just go hopping off to another church, get baptised into their denomination, and come back home and get your other Sacraments here. It’s different if you’ve converted from another faith, but not if you want to convert to the CATHOLIC church, so to answer your question, no. It’s not fine. Also, often times they might not say the formula correctly “I Baptise you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost (or Holy Spirit. Same thing)”.

Also remember, that there’s baptism by blood too, but we’ll not get into that.

 

[thirddec]

DECREE ON ECUMENISM
UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO

It follows that the separated Churches(23) and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.

Am I reading this wrong when I think it is saying that A good Catholic missionary who has lived by their faith faithfull in every way including preaching the Pope is Christs representative on Earth has as good a chance of making it into heaven as a Good Baptist missionary who believed and preached the Pope was the devils representative on Earth.

 

[thirddec]

I read that to mean anyone who believes in Christ and is baptized in his church, has a valid baptism. I don’t see why a Catholic would want to be baptized in a church that is in imperfect communion.

the communion may be imperfect but the statement does not say the baptism is

 

[LoyalViews]

In the case of a emergency, a lay faithful can baptise someone as well

God Bless :byzsoc:

 

[TrueLight]

Only a Trinitarian baptism is valid and true. But, if you are wanting to get baptised in the Catholic church, then they should, and will make time for your baptism. You shouldn’t just go hopping off to another church, get baptised into their denomination, and come back home and get your other Sacraments here. It’s different if you’ve converted from another faith, but not if you want to convert to the CATHOLIC church, so to answer your question, no. It’s not fine. Also, often times they might not say the formula correctly “I Baptise you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost (or Holy Spirit. Same thing)”.

Also remember, that there’s baptism by blood too, but we’ll not get into that.

And baptism by intention.

Thirddec, is this the thread you said you were going to start? Because I feel you want to ask something else.

 

[chevalier]

Nope, a Protestant minister isn’t as good as a Catholic priest. In fact, I suppose he might be a less desirable candidate for the function than a Catholic layman even in a case of necessity, in which indeed any person with the right intention (Can. 861 §2) is allowed to baptise.

Actually, the person baptising does not even have to be baptised himself, he must only use the Christian formula and be in good intention. But this is in necessity, such as e.g. in danger of death, such as a sick child that may die any moment.

 

[thirddec]

And baptism by intention.

Thirddec, is this the thread you said you were going to start? Because I feel you want to ask something else.

You are correct ; the question I want to get the forum focused on is the real threat to our doctrines and faith an approach that is driving for ecumenism by trying to massage all the faiths into one message even if it means to sacrifice our beliefs rather that Ecumenism that looks at what we already hold true together and appreciating that without the need for any church especially the church thats supposed to hold all the depository of truth to start drop or manipulate its beliefs to sound better . Could the drive for more unity amoung Christians also be used by satan to cause the Church to drop its standards. And as I read through this document Alarm bells are ringing.

 

[thirddec]

Erm, why would a foreign minister (other than maybe Orthodox or otherwise in Apostolic Succession) be better than a lay Catholic? A foreign minister is not only a layman himself in any sacramental sense but also less in visible communion than a member of the Catholic laity.

I agree with you ; but if you read that statement ; then what I have said above is also logically correct too. And we have barely got into this starting document about the Ecumenism drive by the Church.

 

[thirddec]

Nope, a Protestant minister isn’t as good as a Catholic priest. In fact, I suppose he might be a less desirable candidate for the function than a Catholic layman even in a case of necessity, in which indeed any person with the right intention (Can. 861 §2) is allowed to baptise.

Actually, the person baptising does not even have to be baptised himself, he must only use the Christian formula and be in good intention. But this is in necessity, such as e.g. in danger of death, such as a sick child that may die any moment.

So where in that statement do you see any mention of any class of baptism apart from a true baptism if it is caried out with the Trinity Formula by another christian ?

 

[jmcrae]

DECREE ON ECUMENISM
UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO

For men who believe in Christ and have been** truly baptized **are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect.

Am I reading this right that according to this document any Baptism is a true baptism so if I can’t get a good date at the local Catholic Church and theres a free spot at the local Baptist Church thats fine as the are all true baptisms. ?

If this is wrong then surely there is confusion in this sentence in the Decree

There is no intention in the decree to say that Catholics can be baptized in other ecclesial communities. If a child of Catholic parents is baptized in a Protestant church, for example, the Church considers that child to be a Protestant, and (normally) he can’t receive any further Sacraments in the Catholic Church until he converts by Profession of Faith from his Protestant faith to the Catholic faith.

But it does mean that when a non-Catholic Christian who has been baptized comes to convert to the Catholic faith, he does so by making a Profession of Faith, and not by being re-baptized - because his baptism is valid. Once having made his Profession of Faith, he goes for his First Reconciliation, followed by Confirmation and First Holy Communion.

All of this occurs after a period of discernment, and quite often, these people are placed in a modified RCIA program, to ensure that they receive as much instruction as possible before making their final decision to become Catholic.

 

[jmcrae]

PS: With regard to your scenario - in the first place, priests will baptize as many people as show up on Baptism day - there is no limit that I am aware of - as long as they have undergone whatever preparation he deems necessary.

Secondly, showing up at a Baptist Church for baptism, the person would have had to undergo whatever preparation for baptism is normal in that community (typically, four weeks of special Sunday School classes) and it would be assumed that the person would be coming to that church for Sunday services, and volunteer on one of their committees, besides.

Baptism is of course primarily about having one’s sins washed away, and becoming a member of Christ’s body, but it is also about being part of the local parish.

 

[TrueLight]

PS: With regard to your scenario - in the first place, priests will baptize as many people as show up on Baptism day - there is no limit that I am aware of - as long as they have undergone whatever preparation he deems necessary.

Secondly, showing up at a Baptist Church for baptism, the person would have had to undergo whatever preparation for baptism is normal in that community (typically, four weeks of special Sunday School classes) and it would be assumed that the person would be coming to that church for Sunday services, and volunteer on one of their committees, besides.

Baptism is of course primarily about having one’s sins washed away, and becoming a member of Christ’s body, but it is also about being part of the local parish.

I agree. Minus the part about joining a committee.

When I was baptized in a Baptist church, I had to first appear before the Pastor and his wife, deacons, elders and registered church members and they had to judge whether I was Christian or not before I was deemed ready to be baptized.

You can bet if I did anything like make the sign of the cross or mention the Church with a capital C or “mass” or “Holy Father” this and that, I would not have been allowed to get baptized.

 

[LoyalViews]

And baptism by intention.

Thirddec, is this the thread you said you were going to start? Because I feel you want to ask something else.

Silly of me to forget that. Thank you for putting it there!

 

[thirddec]

There is no intention in the decree to say that Catholics can be baptized in other ecclesial communities. If a child of Catholic parents is baptized in a Protestant church, for example, the Church considers that child to be a Protestant, and (normally) he can’t receive any further Sacraments in the Catholic Church until he converts by Profession of Faith from his Protestant faith to the Catholic faith.

But it does mean that when a non-Catholic Christian who has been baptized comes to convert to the Catholic faith, he does so by making a Profession of Faith, and not by being re-baptized - because his baptism is valid. Once having made his Profession of Faith, he goes for his First Reconciliation, followed by Confirmation and First Holy Communion.

All of this occurs after a period of discernment, and quite often, these people are placed in a modified RCIA program, to ensure that they receive as much instruction as possible before making their final decision to become Catholic.

I am just showing you how vague and easily read to mean a lot of things this document is for instant I agree with what you say above but read further.

But even in spite of them it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ’s body,(21) and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.(22)

In the above scenario the child has had a true Babtism and is accepted as a brother by the catholic Church MMMH not step brother but brother ; we are brothers in the catholic church this document makes them a brother too so why the need for further courses if he is raised as a catholic by his parents from then.

 

[MikeDunphy]

DECREE ON ECUMENISM
UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO

It follows that the separated Churches(23) and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.

Am I reading this wrong when I think it is saying that A good Catholic missionary who has lived by their faith faithful in every way including preaching the Pope is Christs representative on Earth has as good a chance of making it into heaven as a Good Baptist missionary who believed and preached the Pope was the devils representative on Earth.

With respect, yes I do believe you are reading it wrong. I see no clear indication of their relative chances in what you quoted, however, it would seem that someone from a church or community which is “deficient in some respects” would be at a disadvantage.

 

[TrueLight]

I am just showing you how vague and easily read to mean a lot of things this document is for instant I agree with what you say above but read further.

But even in spite of them it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ’s body,(21) and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.(22)

In the above scenario the child has had a true Babtism and is accepted as a brother by the catholic Church MMMH not step brother but brother ; we are brothers in the catholic church this document makes them a brother too so why the need for further courses if he is raised as a catholic by his parents from then.

Well, I happen to agree with that. Which is why I was so adamant in another thread about saying, “I am a Christian. I am a child of God.”

Thanks for pointing me to this document!

However, I may be a sister, butI wasn’t raised in the same household. so if I want to be a Catholic and not someone related to a Catholic, I have to learn how Catholics do things.

 

[thirddec]

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html
thats the document I quoted from why not read it with an attitude of whats the worst that could happen and see what you think.

I dont want to labour on too much on this but the point I,m trying to get across how we are putting or doctrines on the line in these ecumenical events; while with other Christians there is a limit to whats on the line but what about the Gestures being made to other totaly alien religions like the last time when the Pope kissed the Quran.

There are people in the forum who think that critics of the pope are a risk to us ; maybe but what is the bigger risk?