Catholics ~ can you properly explain this?

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In its most literal sense, the Magisterium is the teaching authority of God, and it doesn’t make sense to separate that from Sacred Tradition.

If you refer to the Magisterium as the College of Bishops, then how exactly does that apply to the local Church? Are you telling me that each time a local Church makes some kind of change, then an Ecumenical Council has to be called to approve it?🤷

Blessings
The Magisterium is the Pope and the College of Bishops ( which includes the Cardinals. ) Each Bishop is responsible only for whatever occurs within his diocese and he takes a vow to obey the Magisterium and the canon of the Church.

A council is called only when there is a change that would affect the entire Church, and not a diocese alone, or to define a tenet or doctrine.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
The Magisterium is the Pope and the College of Bishops ( which includes the Cardinals. ) Each Bishop is responsible only for whatever occurs within his diocese and he takes a vow to obey the Magisterium and the canon of the Church.

A council is called only when there is a change that would affect the entire Church, and not a diocese alone, or to define a tenet or doctrine.
Good.

So since a Patriach and the members of his Synod helped make the laws for the universal Church, then they are exclusively competent to interpret and apply those laws accordingly for the benefit of their local Church.

Blessings
 
As far as the split between Eastern and Western Churches is concerned, they are both to blame. The West did not leave the East and the East did not leave the West. They left each other. Both at the time acted like spoiled brats with each one wanting to be in control of the entire Church. The West using St. Peter’s prominance and the East using the Emperor’s prominance. The West picked up its bat and gloves and the East took the ball and bases and each went home crying blaming the other for the split. When each admits its guilt in the cause of the split, then, maybe, the Eastern and Western Churches will again be one.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
I kind of agree with this synopsis. It seems very odd to me that all the major schisms in the church have been along ethnopolitical bounds. This indicates to me that doctrinal issues were secondary. The miaphysite/dyophysite issue perfectly split Antioch and Alexandria each in half along Greek/Syriac and Greek/Coptic lines respectively. The Prozymes/Azymes issue split Rome and Constantinople in half, again, along ethnopolitical bounds. The Nestorian schism isolated the Church in Babylon and beyond.

It’s really suspicious. Especially since the Roman Church and the Byzantine Church both began to claim that their particular Rite was the only legitimate way to worship. I mean, yes, Christianity took off in Greek speaking areas at first, but it seems odd that suddenly all the non-Greek churches are heretics. Especially in light of the fact that we now understand that the miaphysite schism was really over linguistic and political reasons - not doctrinal. The statements on Christology by the groups indicates agreement.

The same with the Church of the East, in fact, which turned out not really to be Nestorian (see the common Christological agreement).

Of course, the latest schism in the Antiochian Church 250 years AGAIN split along Greek/Arab lines, the Arabs tending towards the Melkites and the Greeks tending towards the Antiochians (although ironically, the Melkites got their name for being the Greek speaking dyophysites back in the day).

The refusal of many Orthodox I’ve talked with to acknowledge that most of these schisms are really matters of geographical, linguistic, and political isolation, and not matters of doctrine is disturbing to me. I mean, yes, it’s okay to discuss the doctrinal issues and acknowledge that they’re real, but people, especially leaders of the church, are liable to behave like people.

Just to clarify to all Orthodox reading this, I’m not saying that there weren’t real doctrinal issues to be sorted out (Prozymes/Azymes, Triple pouring/Triple immersion, Primacy/Supremacy, Filioque/Monopatrism). I’m not saying that these aren’t important. I’m also not saying that the ONLY reasons for the schism were geographical, lingustic, and political. However, I am saying that they were a very large and significant part.
 
Politics and religion don’t mix. Or rather, they do often mix, but with bad result.

The same kind of thing happened in the west, BTW.

This is the best explanation of why the Catholic church is not primarily responsible for the Spanish Inquisition. The church had become an adjunct of the state, and the state had a policy about uniformity of religious practice.In his role, Torquemada was acting on behalf of the king.

Of course, the Roman Inquisition was another matter.

Anyway, it is important to realize that the early church had a different sort of organizational arrangement, based upon dioceses gathered into local synods. The bishops were named locally and the synod called local councils. The Catholic Encyclopedia is full of references to these local councils, they were very important in the development of the western church. They don’t, as a general rule, happen anymore.

Synods were organized around a ‘Metropolitan’, the first mentioned in the canons of the ecumenical councils were of Rome (for central Italy), Alexandria (for Egypt and Libya) and Antioch (for Asia). Others were not named specifically, but when a conflict arose over the governance of the very ancient church at Cyprus, the Fathers in Council declared that church to also be self governed. It was a general process of reorganization that went far beyond what was mentioned in the Ecumenical Councils as examples, because we know Palestine was governed by Caesarea Maritima on the coast (with Jerusalem as a suffragan See), this is well attested. (Later an Ecumenical Council elevated the Jerusalem church over Caesarea.) We also know Milan was the Metropolitan See for northern Italy (which explains why or how they developed the different liturgical tradition from very early on, called the ‘Ambrosian’).

There was a very interesting thread in the Traditionalist section about the Mozarabic church (from early Spain) which demonstrates how independent it was. This pattern existed throughout the church, east and west.

The trouble was, and can be today, that kings and nobility want to control the churches in their regions, the bigger the kingdom, the more synods that would be affected. This was a huge problem in the western church as well as the eastern, with for example the Italian nobility which contested over the Papacy for perhaps two centuries, the naming of Popes by the Byzantine empire for a stretch, then the naming of Popes by Frankish empire for a stretch. The same problem happened in France and Spain and it is also remembered as the investiture controversy in the Holy Roman (German) empire.

Here in China the Catholic church is under this kind of strain even today. Considering the very similar history of the church elsewhere in the past, I don’t blame them for these problems, it was imposed upon them from outside and they have to deal with it.

In any case, the Orthodox church is still organized along local synodal lines. In countries where the government respects the church, there is no problem with it. In countries where the government does not respect the church, no form of organization does particularly well.

The Catholic (or Western) church is now very centrally governed. This can be traced mostly to the Gregorian reformation of the church. It helped eventually liberate the church from a lot of the stresses of local governmental control, but introduced a host of it’s own problems.

For one thing, it made the Papacy a big juicy target, as witnessed by the ‘Babylonian Captivity’ of the Papacy at Avignon with powerful people like Charles V and Napoleon locking Popes up. It also allowed for larceny and church corruption on a much grander scale than had been possible before.
 
Politics and religion don’t mix. Or rather, they do often mix, but with bad result.

The same kind of thing happened in the west, BTW.

This is the best explanation of why the Catholic church is not primarily responsible for the Spanish Inquisition. The church had become an adjunct of the state, and the state had a policy about uniformity of religious practice.In his role, Torquemada was acting on behalf of the king.

Of course, the Roman Inquisition was another matter.

Anyway, it is important to realize that the early church had a different sort of organizational arrangement, based upon dioceses gathered into local synods. The bishops were named locally and the synod called local councils. The Catholic Encyclopedia is full of references to these local councils, they were very important in the development of the western church. They don’t, as a general rule, happen anymore.

Synods were organized around a ‘Metropolitan’, the first mentioned in the canons of the ecumenical councils were of Rome (for central Italy), Alexandria (for Egypt and Libya) and Antioch (for Asia). Others were not named specifically, but when a conflict arose over the governance of the very ancient church at Cyprus, the Fathers in Council declared that church to also be self governed. It was a general process of reorganization that went far beyond what was mentioned in the Ecumenical Councils as examples, because we know Palestine was governed by Caesarea Maritima on the coast (with Jerusalem as a suffragan See), this is well attested. (Later an Ecumenical Council elevated the Jerusalem church over Caesarea.) We also know Milan was the Metropolitan See for northern Italy (which explains why or how they developed the different liturgical tradition from very early on, called the ‘Ambrosian’).

There was a very interesting thread in the Traditionalist section about the Mozarabic church (from early Spain) which demonstrates how independent it was. This pattern existed throughout the church, east and west.

The trouble was, and can be today, that kings and nobility want to control the churches in their regions, the bigger the kingdom, the more synods that would be affected. This was a huge problem in the western church as well as the eastern, with for example the Italian nobility which contested over the Papacy for perhaps two centuries, the naming of Popes by the Byzantine empire for a stretch, then the naming of Popes by Frankish empire for a stretch. The same problem happened in France and Spain and it is also remembered as the investiture controversy in the Holy Roman (German) empire.

Here in China the Catholic church is under this kind of strain even today. Considering the very similar history of the church elsewhere in the past, I don’t blame them for these problems, it was imposed upon them from outside and they have to deal with it.

In any case, the Orthodox church is still organized along local synodal lines. In countries where the government respects the church, there is no problem with it. In countries where the government does not respect the church, no form of organization does particularly well.

The Catholic (or Western) church is now very centrally governed. This can be traced mostly to the Gregorian reformation of the church. It helped eventually liberate the church from a lot of the stresses of local governmental control, but introduced a host of it’s own problems.

For one thing, it made the Papacy a big juicy target, as witnessed by the ‘Babylonian Captivity’ of the Papacy at Avignon and also with powerful historical figures like Charles V and Napoleon locking Popes up. This high degree of centralization also allowed for types of larceny and church corruption on a much grander scale than had been possible before.
 
Good.

So since a Patriach and the members of his Synod helped make the laws for the universal Church, then they are exclusively competent to interpret and apply those laws accordingly for the benefit of their local Church.

Blessings
I should have added that the College of Bishops includes ALL Bishops of the Catholic Church, both Eastern and Western rites.

God Bless.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
Politics and religion don’t mix. Or rather, they do often mix, but with bad result.

The same kind of thing happened in the west, BTW.
Oh, absolutely. It’s incredibly suspicious that suddenly only Latin believers profess the orthodox faith - oh wait, there are the Maronites!

For all the talk we make about the 23 sui iuris churches, Latin believers comprise what, 98% of the population?
 
Can you properly explain why many Eastern Orthodox branches are not in communion with
-other- Eastern Orthodox branches?
Because each Orthodox Church is Autocephalous (Eastern,Coptic,Oriental etc) is independent and self-governing.
Can you properly explain why Eastern Orthodoxy was always more susceptible to Arian heresy?
Does it have something do with the Filioque??
 
Good.

So since a Patriach and the members of his Synod helped make the laws for the universal Church, then they are exclusively competent to interpret and apply those laws accordingly for the benefit of their local Church.

Blessings
I understand this. 👍
 
Good.

So since a Patriach and the members of his Synod helped make the laws for the universal Church, then they are exclusively competent to interpret and apply those laws accordingly for the benefit of their local Church.
I think ‘exclusively’ is not the word you were looking for.

If it was the word you intended to use, you were wrong. That does not even exactly apply to Orthodox Catholic synods (who must agree with the other synods, or in other words are not competent to change theological expression unilaterally), much the less to Catholics under the Pope.

They (Eastern Catholic Patriarch and the members of his Synod) must agree with the bishop of Rome. If the bishop of Rome disagrees, they may be expected to change their interpretation to one he can agree with, the Pope doesn’t have to change his interpretation.

Perhaps if you dropped that thorny little word ‘exclusively’ the sentence would be more Papal Catholic, as in “… since a Patriach and the members of his Synod helped make the laws for the universal Church, they are competent to interpret and apply those laws accordingly for the benefit of their local Church”.
 
I think ‘exclusively’ is not the word you were looking for.

If it was the word you intended to use, you were wrong. That does not even exactly apply to Orthodox Catholic synods (who must agree with the other synods, or in other words are not competent to change theological expression unilaterally), much the less to Catholics under the Pope.
They (Eastern Catholic Patriarch and the members of his Synod) must agree with the bishop of Rome. If the bishop of Rome disagrees, they may be expected to change their interpretation to one he can agree with, the Pope doesn’t have to change his interpretation.
**It should be noted that the Pope, if he is not a theologian, relies on the advice of Church theologians for his decision as to whether or not to agree with the Bishops. **
 
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