Catholic's can't justify the Crusades

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M_Oliver

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Have you ever read the pathetic excuses put forth by catholics to make their bloody history go away? The crusades were WAR, period. A true Christian never supports war.

**They admit:

“For starters, the Crusades to the East were in every way defensive wars.”**

Oh, so because it was a defensive war it was ok? I guess Jesus was just kidding around…

"Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword.”(Matthew 26:52)

**They say:

“They were a direct response to Muslim aggression—an attempt to turn back or defend against Muslim conquests of Christian lands.”**

Sounds just like Peter’s logic in defending Christ, doesn’t it? Of course he was wrong, Christ said so.

**They say:

"With enormous energy, the warriors of Islam struck out against the Christians shortly after Mohammed’s death. They were extremely successful. Palestine, Syria, and Egypt—once the most heavily Christian areas in the world—quickly succumbed.

By the eighth century, Muslim armies had conquered all of Christian North Africa and Spain. In the eleventh century, the Seljuk Turks conquered Asia Minor (modern Turkey), which had been Christian since the time of St. Paul. The old Roman Empire, known to modern historians as the Byzantine Empire, was reduced to little more than Greece.

In desperation, the emperor in Constantinople sent word to the Christians of western Europe asking them to aid their brothers and sisters in the East.

That is what gave birth to the Crusades. They were not the brainchild of an ambitious pope or rapacious knights but a response to more than four centuries of conquests in which Muslims had already captured two-thirds of the old Christian world. At some point, Christianity as a faith and a culture had to defend itself or be subsumed by Islam. The Crusades were that defense."**

Oh I see! A defensive war is a justified war! I guess Christ was was wrong…

"Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword.”(Matthew 26:52)

A pope wouldn’t entertain WAR would he?

"Pope Urban II called upon the knights of Christendom to push back the conquests of Islam at the Council of Clermont in 1095."

In other words he called them to WAR! I guess Christ was just kidding…

"Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword.”(Matthew 26:52)

How did the church who says it is the only church of salvation respond?

"The response was tremendous. Many thousands of warriors took the vow of the cross and prepared for war. Why did they do it?"

Why DID they do it??? Because they were not and are not True Christian’s!

**How do they explain it?

“Crusading,” Professor Jonathan Riley-Smith has rightly argued, was understood as an “an act of love”—in this case, the love of one’s neighbor. The Crusade was seen as an errand of mercy to right a terrible wrong. As Pope Innocent III wrote to the Knights Templar,

“You carry out in deeds the words of the Gospel, ‘Greater love than this hath no man, that he lay down his life for his friends.’”**

OOOOOOOOHHHHHHH. Forgive me. We can murder when it is an act of love. Surely Christ must have been speaking “metaphorically”. Isn’t that the catholic answer to almost every sin they commit that is prohibited by Scripture.

I remind you Christ said:

"Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword.”(Matthew 26:52)

My intention was to go through this entire joke of an article but I must admit it is to troubling to me when I read it. Catholism was out of control from it’s beginning as it is today. They have mastered the art of BS, to put it mildly, when it comes to their MANY unscriptural actions throughout history.

Here is the link if you want to read the rest of this lame attempt to justify war (murder) in the name of catholicism:

crisismagazine.com/april2002/cover.htm

May Chist our Lord speed His return and have mercy on those who are liars inside but bless you with their lips.
 
Yep, I’ve definitely got to get bifocals or a magnifying glass or something.:yawn: :sleep:
 
I don’t think the Muslim aggression could be justified, either. I don’t see any reason for excusing it as anything else that it was, raw aggression.

And, warfare just happens to be one venue where Christianity had to defend itself and assert itself, whether anyone likes it or not.

Revisionist history is insulting. God punished Israel for falling away from the covenant and it was conquered by foreigners, and at other times God enabled Israel to establish a homeland and to live in a peace that pointed to our future home in the afterlife.

The issue is certainly complex, and one has to define what can be allowed by the word “justify.”

The virtue of “poverty” does not mean rejecting absolutely everything that sustains life and is vain, nor demand that one simply wait for death to arrive, while we cower in more fear of God than He would have us.

I’ve never heard anyone suggest that Jesus wanted us all literally to be crucified as the best expression of being a Christian. The movement would have come to an end long ago.
 
Ecclesiastes 3:1-8
For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven: 2 a time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up what is planted; 3 a time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; 4 a time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; 5 a time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing; 6 a time to seek, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away; 7 a time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; 8 a time to love, and a time to hate; a time for war, and a time for peace.
 
M_Oliver, does that mean the United States had no business entering WWII after Pearl Harbor. If even defensive war isn’t justified, you think we should’ve let Japan continue to attack us or allow Germany to be in a position to launch attacks on our soils?

That’s the logical conclusion one must follow if defensive wars aren’t justified as you indicate.
 
I respectfully disagree. One of the most famous prophesies that we humans keep reasoning around says it all:

“He shall judge between the nations,and shall decide disputes for many peoples;and they shall beat their swords into plowshares,and their spears into pruning hooks;nation shall not lift up sword against nation,neither shall they learn war anymore.”

I just cannot understand why man MUST go to war when God clearly prohibits it under the New Covenant. Can we argue with God and win??
 
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M_Oliver:
I respectfully disagree. One of the most famous prophesies that we humans keep reasoning around says it all:

“He shall judge between the nations,and shall decide disputes for many peoples;and they shall beat their swords into plowshares,and their spears into pruning hooks;nation shall not lift up sword against nation,neither shall they learn war anymore.”

I just cannot understand why man MUST go to war when God clearly prohibits it under the New Covenant. Can we argue with God and win??
Are you saying that we should allow aggressor nations to overrun innocent nations (I realize the irony of this question)? Fortunately we have two oceans separating us so an invasion post-Pearl Harbor wasn’t a certainty. But what about nations like Poland that were invaded by Germany to satisfy Hitler’s racist policies?

What about Saddam’s invasion of Kuwait?
 
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M_Oliver:
I just cannot understand why man MUST go to war when God clearly prohibits it under the New Covenant. Can we argue with God and win??
Man goes to war because of sin: until we learn how to have peace, we will always have war. That being said, is the Crusades justified then? In a historical perspective, it is. Note that no war is justified per se; however, we must also look at what are the reasons why it happened, and whether or not we should let people just trample on us like that. Case in point, as some posted, is Wordl War II and Pearl Harbour. We must also view things with the bigger picture in mind: if not for the Crusades, would Europe have ben preserved for the Faith then?
 
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LRThunder:
Are you saying that we should allow aggressor nations to overrun innocent nations (I realize the irony of this question)? Fortunately we have two oceans separating us so an invasion post-Pearl Harbor wasn’t a certainty. But what about nations like Poland that were invaded by Germany to satisfy Hitler’s racist policies?

What about Saddam’s invasion of Kuwait?
If we are truly crucified with Christ, yes, we should learn war no more. Christ Himself tells us:

*"You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven.

For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?

You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."*

Could He say it more clearly? I think not. If a person or a nation is truly living what Christ taught it is a brutal life in the flesh. We must look beyond the flesh and see the spiritual if we are to ever inherit the Kingdom of God.

It is not easy, that is the message of the whole Bible!
 
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M_Oliver:
If we are truly crucified with Christ, yes, we should learn war no more. Christ Himself tells us:

"You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven.
Yes, we should love our enemies. In the sane vein then, Jesus did say to turn the other cheek, right? But that begs the question: are we to simply let people trample over us? What if, for instance, a religion makes war against the Church, what are we to do then? Simply roll over and give in? Or must we defend our Faith?
 
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Milliardo:
Man goes to war because of sin: until we learn how to have peace, we will always have war. That being said, is the Crusades justified then? In a historical perspective, it is. Note that no war is justified per se; however, we must also look at what are the reasons why it happened, and whether or not we should let people just trample on us like that. Case in point, as some posted, is Wordl War II and Pearl Harbour. We must also view things with the bigger picture in mind: if not for the Crusades, would Europe have ben preserved for the Faith then?
Does MAN’S bigger picture matter to the God of ALL that exists? Really, does it?
 
OK, I have a legitimate grievance here. I could not read the original post. I tried to make light of it but evidently some of you could read it. May I suggest that the OP re-post the original post so that those of us with less than 20/20 vision can read it?
 
JSmitty2005 said:
:nope: You’re wrong.

“The Lord is a man of war.” (Exodus 15:3) :hmmm:

Certainly not forever Smitty. Christ as our creator reserves the right to direct His creation as He sees fit , does he not? It is clearly true according to Scripture that He directed man to go to war as He saw fit under the old covenant. It was for HIS pupose, not ours. Can the creation question the Creator? God forbid.

What most men are failing to see is the fact that GOD IS IN CONTROL. Man must thoroughly humble himself and understand that we do not determine our destiny. God does! If He directed war under the old contract but now tells us in the new contract that we are not to, WHO ARE WE TO ARGUE?

That really is what it comes down to. Man has gotten so arrogant we have lost sight of Who lets us live every, every, every second we breath. Is it that difficult for you to see? The hair on your head is numbered by God! What else matters but what He tells us to do?
 
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M_Oliver:
Does MAN’S bigger picture matter to the God of ALL that exists? Really, does it?
When we talk about His Church, what do you think the answer is? I think what Jesus said should be enough: The gates of hell shall not overcome it. As well, who are we to question God’s greater design? Wars might not be morally correct, but then again God did use wars to preserve Israel in the Old Testament. Was God morally reprehensible then in using such means? The greater contention should be then, why does God allow wars to happen? Yes, morally it is wrong; we all know that, but then we must as well think about this.
 
REPOSTED due to some seeing it in very samll text?

Have you ever read the pathetic excuses put forth by catholics to make their bloody history go away? The crusades were WAR, period. A true Christian never supports war.

They admit:

“For starters, the Crusades to the East were in every way defensive wars.”

Oh, so because it was a defensive war it was ok? I guess Jesus was just kidding around…

"Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword.”(Matthew 26:52)

They say:

“They were a direct response to Muslim aggression—an attempt to turn back or defend against Muslim conquests of Christian lands.”

Sounds just like Peter’s logic in defending Christ, doesn’t it? Of course he was wrong, Christ said so.

They say:

"With enormous energy, the warriors of Islam struck out against the Christians shortly after Mohammed’s death. They were extremely successful. Palestine, Syria, and Egypt—once the most heavily Christian areas in the world—quickly succumbed.

By the eighth century, Muslim armies had conquered all of Christian North Africa and Spain. In the eleventh century, the Seljuk Turks conquered Asia Minor (modern Turkey), which had been Christian since the time of St. Paul. The old Roman Empire, known to modern historians as the Byzantine Empire, was reduced to little more than Greece.

In desperation, the emperor in Constantinople sent word to the Christians of western Europe asking them to aid their brothers and sisters in the East.

That is what gave birth to the Crusades. They were not the brainchild of an ambitious pope or rapacious knights but a response to more than four centuries of conquests in which Muslims had already captured two-thirds of the old Christian world. At some point, Christianity as a faith and a culture had to defend itself or be subsumed by Islam. The Crusades were that defense."

Oh I see! A defensive war is a justified war! I guess Christ was was wrong…

"Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword.”(Matthew 26:52)

A pope wouldn’t entertain WAR would he?

“Pope Urban II called upon the knights of Christendom to push back the conquests of Islam at the Council of Clermont in 1095.”

In other words he called them to WAR! I guess Christ was just kidding…

"Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword.”(Matthew 26:52)

How did the church who says it is the only church of salvation respond?

“The response was tremendous. Many thousands of warriors took the vow of the cross and prepared for war. Why did they do it?”

Why DID they do it??? Because they were not and are not True Christian’s!

How do they explain it?

“Crusading,” Professor Jonathan Riley-Smith has rightly argued, was understood as an “an act of love”—in this case, the love of one’s neighbor. The Crusade was seen as an errand of mercy to right a terrible wrong. As Pope Innocent III wrote to the Knights Templar,

“You carry out in deeds the words of the Gospel, ‘Greater love than this hath no man, that he lay down his life for his friends.’”

OOOOOOOOHHHHHHH. Forgive me. We can murder when it is an act of love. Surely Christ must have been speaking “metaphorically”. Isn’t that the catholic answer to almost every sin they commit that is prohibited by Scripture.

I remind you Christ said:

"Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword.”(Matthew 26:52)

My intention was to go through this entire joke of an article but I must admit it is to troubling to me when I read it. Catholism was out of control from it’s beginning as it is today. They have mastered the art of BS, to put it mildly, when it comes to their MANY unscriptural actions throughout history.

Here is the link if you want to read the rest of this lame attempt to justify war (murder) in the name of catholicism:

crisismagazine.com/april2002/cover.htm

May Chist our Lord speed His return and have mercy on those who are liars inside but bless you with their lips.
 
So are you saying that you cannot be wrong in your interpretation of the Bible Oliver, and that you are 100% correct?

This personal interpretation that says no war even in defense is wrong, is this an infallible statement of Oliver.

Please answer yes or no as Christians we are supposed to.

God Bless
Scylla
 
Oliver,

Yes, of course Jesus told all Christians to be peacable. However, your theory that no Christian should ever support war is unthinkable. Jesus said: “Those who live by the sword, will die by the sword.” This means that Christians should live peaceably. However, sometimes to preserve peace, one must prepare for war. Do you think that the people during the Crusades were just going to stand by, watch their children killed, their whole civilization taken over? Of course not. It is absurd to expect that of them.

Don’t try to discredit the Catholic faith by reminding us of how the people defended themselves against death. Life is God’s gift to all humans. Every person has a right to defend themself.
 
"Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword.”(Matthew 26:52)

Hmmm…M_Oliver if Jesus was a total pacifist he would have told Peter to “throw away his Sword” instead he tells him to put it back into its place (sheath, scabard, etc). Could it be that Jesus was telling one of his newly inaugurated priests that it is not right for them to take up arms, but at the same time he did not say that there might not be moments where arms would have to be directed at the unjust.

The chain of events prior to Urban the II declaring the crusades would certainly indicate that the followers of Mahomet had no love for Christians and that they intended to eradicate them.

Sorry but you are so very wrong on this issue!😛
 
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