Catholic's can't justify the Crusades

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Milliardo:
When we talk about His Church, what do you think the answer is? I think what Jesus said should be enough: The gates of hell shall not overcome it. As well, who are we to question God’s greater design? Wars might not be morally correct, but then again God did use wars to preserve Israel in the Old Testament. Was God morally reprehensible then in using such means? The greater contention should be then, why does God allow wars to happen? Yes, morally it is wrong; we all know that, but then we must as well think about this.
Re: His church: The answer is we go to war when He says we are to go to war, we don’t when He says we don’t. Under the New Covenant He says NO. We cannot argue or reason through it. He sets the rules.

Re: Was God morally reprehensible (for using war): NO. He is God the Creator and we the creation cannot make that determination. He had His reasons. Are we to judge Him?

Re: Why does God allow wars to happen?: He only told us NOT to do it. He doesn’t keep us from doing it. He saw all of this from the beginning, you know He did. He is simply letting mankind learn a very valuable lesson. That lesson is we cannot govern ourselves in peace. I don’t know why we think we have the right to ask why.

If you want to put it in our language you could say that God is a movie director. We are the actors. He already knows the beginning and the end. The actors are still trying to figure it out. It’s none of the actors business except what we know from the script, or Holy Bible. Got study? 🙂
 
Luke 22
He said to them, 12 "But now one who has a money bag should take it, and likewise a sack, and one who does not have a sword should sell his cloak and buy one
Why does Jesus say to buy a sword if not for self defence?
 
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scylla:
So are you saying that you cannot be wrong in your interpretation of the Bible Oliver, and that you are 100% correct?

This personal interpretation that says no war even in defense is wrong, is this an infallible statement of Oliver.

Please answer yes or no as Christians we are supposed to.

God Bless
Scylla
Where under the New and BETTER Covenant does it allow us to go to war? I’m a Christian not a Muslum. My Bible doesn’t say it, does yours???
 
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M_Oliver:
Re: His church: The answer is we go to war when He says we are to go to war, we don’t when He says we don’t. Under the New Covenant He says NO. We cannot argue or reason through it. He sets the rules.
Show us then where Jesus explicitly tells us to surrender our faith in times of danger.
Re: Was God morally reprehensible (for using war): NO. He is God the Creator and we the creation cannot make that determination. He had His reasons. Are we to judge Him?
My ponit exactly.
Re: Why does God allow wars to happen?: He only told us NOT to do it. He doesn’t keep us from doing it. He saw all of this from the beginning, you know He did. He is simply letting mankind learn a very valuable lesson. That lesson is we cannot govern ourselves in peace. I don’t know why we think we have the right to ask why.
You’re not answering the question, Oliver.
If you want to put it in our language you could say that God is a movie director. We are the actors. He already knows the beginning and the end. The actors are still trying to figure it out. It’s none of the actors business except what we know from the script, or Holy Bible. Got study? 🙂
Thank you. You have just invariably defended why there is war, and why we must defend our faith, even if it should mean war. Good job. 😃
 
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M_Oliver:
Where under the New and BETTER Covenant does it allow us to go to war? I’m a Christian not a Muslum. My Bible doesn’t say it, does yours???
Oliver,
Let me ask you a question. If you saw an old woman being brutally struck down by a mugger, do you really believe that Jesus would want you to sit there and watch it. No. Violence is a part of this world. Satan and sin have made it so. If Christians never fought back, we would be non-existant. The Church would have perished, and the true means of salvation nothing but a memory. Wow, sort of makes you think that defense is acceptable, doesn’t it?
 
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AquinaSavio:
Oliver,

Yes, of course Jesus told all Christians to be peacable. However, your theory that no Christian should ever support war is unthinkable. Jesus said: “Those who live by the sword, will die by the sword.” This means that Christians should live peaceably. However, sometimes to preserve peace, one must prepare for war. Do you think that the people during the Crusades were just going to stand by, watch their children killed, their whole civilization taken over? Of course not. It is absurd to expect that of them.

Don’t try to discredit the Catholic faith by reminding us of how the people defended themselves against death. Life is God’s gift to all humans. Every person has a right to defend themself.
Why is it absurd to think that they should have stoodby? If they truly trusted God do you think He would have let their children be killed? It is a matter of SINCERE TRUST in your Creator Christ that you do what He says and let Him work things out. If they felt the need to make war, they DID NOT TRUST CHRIST.

If, God forbid, one of your family members were brutally murdered tonight what would your reaction be? Would you kill the bad guy? You shouldn’t, God has His reason. Do you doubt that as a professing Christian?
 
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M_Oliver:
REPOSTED due to some seeing it in very samll text?

Have you ever read the pathetic excuses put forth by catholics to make their bloody history go away? The crusades were WAR, period. A true Christian never supports war.
First, I find you opening statement rather insulting. You are not attempted to dialog in a Christian manner, but rather insight anger. My initial reaction to your post was to respond in kind; however, in keeping with the topic, I will forego a verbal war with you. God bless.

PS – See as I have demonstrated, Catholics can turn the other cheek when protestants attack.
 
Cubsfan said:
"Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword.”(Matthew 26:52)

Hmmm…M_Oliver if Jesus was a total pacifist he would have told Peter to “throw away his Sword” instead he tells him to put it back into its place (sheath, scabard, etc). Could it be that Jesus was telling one of his newly inaugurated priests that it is not right for them to take up arms, but at the same time he did not say that there might not be moments where arms would have to be directed at the unjust.

This is a great point, and well put. I never thought of it that way. It reminds me of the conversation between Christ and the centurion:

Matthew 8:8: “And the centurion making answer, said: Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldst enter under my roof: but only say the word, and my servant shall be healed. 9 For I also am a man subject to authority, having under me soldiers; and I say to this, Go, and he goeth, and to another, Come, and he cometh, and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. 10 And Jesus hearing this, marvelled; and said to them that followed him: Amen I say to you, I have not found so great faith in Israel.

Christ has nothing but praise for this man, even after a description of his job duties.

If just war were never allowed, Christ would have condemned his role as a centurion.
 
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M_Oliver:
Why is it absurd to think that they should have stoodby? If they truly trusted God do you think He would have let their children be killed?
They were killed; that’s the point. Thousands of Christians were being slaughtered by the Muslims. It was only after those killings that the defensive measures were taken.
If, God forbid, one of your family members were brutally murdered tonight what would your reaction be? Would you kill the bad guy? You shouldn’t, God has His reason.
The point is, do you have a right to step in before they are murdered? The answer, of course, is yes.
 
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M_Oliver:
My Bible doesn’t say it, does yours???
Yeah, it says one must prepare oneself for self-defense, as adrift pointed out above (Post #22):

Luke 22:36 “Then said he unto them: But now he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise a scrip; and he that hath not, let him sell his coat, and buy a sword.”

Why won’t you answer adrift’s question:

“Why does Jesus say to buy a sword if not for self-defense?”
 
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M_Oliver:
If, God forbid, one of your family members were brutally murdered tonight what would your reaction be? Would you kill the bad guy? You shouldn’t, God has His reason. Do you doubt that as a professing Christian?
We have both the right and the responsibility to preserve life. This is obvious according to Natural Law. Correct…Jesus did not want violence. However, the quote that has been cited several times means that we should not be violent people, not that we should stand by and let the world destroy itself out of hatred. Jesus actually became violent once. Remember the sellers in the temple? That was justifiable anger and punishment. Jesus was defending His Father’s house. The Crusaders were defending their Father’s Church. Similarly, if I was being attacked and I defended myself, I would be defending a temple of the Holy Spirit (my body). I hope you see my point.
 
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AquinaSavio:
However, sometimes to preserve peace, one must prepare for war. .
Isn’t this reason the one that is invariably given by people who want to start or continue a war.
 
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Kirane:
Isn’t this reason the one that is invariably given by people who want to start or continue a war.
No it is not. This reason was given by Ragan and the Soviet Union collapsed. Ragan did not go to war nor was there a war going on at the time. Although I really believe it was through Mary’s promise that it collapsed.
 
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adrift:
No it is not. This reason was given by Ragan and the Soviet Union collapsed. Ragan did not go to war nor was there a war going on at the time. Although I really believe it was through Mary’s promise that it collapsed.
Reagan is how his name is spelled. Otherwise I agree with you. 😉
 
I tend to lean more towards Oliver’s stance more than others.

God gave me a sword. It’s called the Bible. If that Sword fails to reach people’s hearts, It’s not our place to send their soul to Hell. To make disciples of all nations, we can’t kill people. 2 Corinthians 10:2-7. Exodus 20:13 many different translations phrase it “do not kill”, “do not murder”, “Thou shall not murder”, “Thou shalt not kill” and even “do not kill other people.” (Biblegateway.com)

Sometimes dying for your faith is seen as more of an inspiration for others to follow Christ. To glorify God in life as well as in death is a truly christian goal. I hope my death is an inspiration for others to follow Christ more.

God bless you all.
 
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Kirane:
Isn’t this reason the one that is invariably given by people who want to start or continue a war.
Well, I doubt that the Crusaders really wanted to travel hundreds of miles from their homes and fight the Moslems in a totally different land under burning heat and filled with plagues. No, a Catholic should never want war, but sometimes it is necessary. Look at WWII. Do you think that the Allies shouldn’t have fought Germany for the horrific things the Nazis were doing?
 
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M_Oliver:
Have you ever read the pathetic excuses put forth by catholics to make their bloody history go away? The crusades were WAR, period. A true Christian never supports war.

They admit:

"For starters, the Crusades to the East were in every way defensive wars."


Oh, so because it was a defensive war it was ok? I guess Jesus was just kidding around…

"Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword.”(Matthew 26:52)

They say:

"They were a direct response to Muslim aggression—an attempt to turn back or defend against Muslim conquests of Christian lands."


Sounds just like Peter’s logic in defending Christ, doesn’t it? Of course he was wrong, Christ said so.

They say:

"With enormous energy, the warriors of Islam struck out against the Christians shortly after Mohammed’s death. They were extremely successful. Palestine, Syria, and Egypt—once the most heavily Christian areas in the world—quickly succumbed.

By the eighth century, Muslim armies had conquered all of Christian North Africa and Spain. In the eleventh century, the Seljuk Turks conquered Asia Minor (modern Turkey), which had been Christian since the time of St. Paul. The old Roman Empire, known to modern historians as the Byzantine Empire, was reduced to little more than Greece.

In desperation, the emperor in Constantinople sent word to the Christians of western Europe asking them to aid their brothers and sisters in the East.

That is what gave birth to the Crusades. They were not the brainchild of an ambitious pope or rapacious knights but a response to more than four centuries of conquests in which Muslims had already captured two-thirds of the old Christian world. At some point, Christianity as a faith and a culture had to defend itself or be subsumed by Islam. The Crusades were that defense."


Oh I see! A defensive war is a justified war! I guess Christ was was wrong…

"Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword.”(Matthew 26:52)

A pope wouldn’t entertain WAR would he?

"Pope Urban II called upon the knights of Christendom to push back the conquests of Islam at the Council of Clermont in 1095."

In other words he called them to WAR! I guess Christ was just kidding…

"Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword.”(Matthew 26:52)

How did the church who says it is the only church of salvation respond?

"The response was tremendous. Many thousands of warriors took the vow of the cross and prepared for war. Why did they do it?"

Why DID they do it??? Because they were not and are not True Christian’s!

How do they explain it?

"Crusading," Professor Jonathan Riley-Smith has rightly argued, was understood as an “an act of love”—in this case, the love of one’s neighbor. The Crusade was seen as an errand of mercy to right a terrible wrong. As Pope Innocent III wrote to the Knights Templar,

"You carry out in deeds the words of the Gospel, ‘Greater love than this hath no man, that he lay down his life for his friends.’"


OOOOOOOOHHHHHHH. Forgive me. We can murder when it is an act of love. Surely Christ must have been speaking “metaphorically”. Isn’t that the catholic answer to almost every sin they commit that is prohibited by Scripture.

I remind you Christ said:

"Then Jesus said to him, “Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword.”(Matthew 26:52)

My intention was to go through this entire joke of an article but I must admit it is to troubling to me when I read it. Catholism was out of control from it’s beginning as it is today. They have mastered the art of BS, to put it mildly, when it comes to their MANY unscriptural actions throughout history.

Here is the link if you want to read the rest of this lame attempt to justify war (murder) in the name of catholicism:

crisismagazine.com/april2002/cover.htm

May Chist our Lord speed His return and have mercy on those who are liars inside but bless you with their lips.
Is this person talking about Jimmy Swaggart or Jim Bakker ???
 
I had hoped to be able to read the original post. I did try a magnifying glass this morning (very bad idea on a computer monitor). However, judging from all of your responses, I guess it’s just as well that I couldn’t read it. I pray that God allows this poster to keep good vision and to give the poster charity towards those of us whose eyesight has begun to fail.
 
M Oliver, if the Scriptures are so clear and absolute on this, I’m assuming you’re saying we ought not to respond with violence if, say, our children or wives are being physically assaulted.

Stand by, rather, and trust God.

You really believe Christ was saying this?
 
I think M Oliver is a troll.

Anyway, his basic premise is not one agreed to by any Christian I know or have ever known.

So he might as well say that the moon is made of green cheese. It doesn’t make it so…🙂
 
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