Catholic's can't justify the Crusades

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The Crusades were justifiable. You may not think so from a 20th and 21st century standpoint.

But from standpoint in time when they were done, they were very justifiable.

My only regret is that the Crusades were not won and Islam was wiped off the face of the earth. This might be a more peaceful earth than it is now.
 
M_Oliver said:
What have I taken out of context? Show me the Scriptures where Jesus gave us the “sacraments”. Where does God reveal “pergutory”? I’m serious. WHERE??

Fallen nature? Man never fell. He was CREATED THAT WAY!
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M-Oliver, I suggest you start new threads. You will get plenty of answers. You may not LIKE them, but you will get plenty of answers. I might also suggest you pick up a copy of the Catechism.

Of course, you can read it online here: usccb.org/catechism/text/
 
Some wars are inevitable. When tyrants and aggressive rulers and countries still exist, some wars may be absolutely necessary. When true evil exists in the world, the good can not and should not stand by. We have seen this first hand in Nazi Germany, Rwanda, and Cambodia.

While fighting and war should be avoided whenever possible, I believe God condones and even encourages some to act in the defense of innocents. If evil is allowed to spread unchecked, the world would have gone to h*** in a hand basket long ago.

When a soldier asked John the Baptist how he should act, John did NOT tell him to get another occupation or not to go to war, BUT he merely told him to be content with his wages and not to abuse his authority.

Jesus tells us “blessed are the Peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God.” In many many cases, the Peacemakers are the soldiers or countries who are willing to fight in defense of those who can not help themselves.

The great irony is that in many instances in order to preserve the peace, you may have to fight a war to get it. History has already shown that you can not appease a Hitler, or Pol Pot or Saddam or any other despot.
 
Why do people always try to judge some people of the past in an effort to discredit those of the present? Even worse they try to force modern views upon previous generations with very little understanding of human history. I wonder if people 500 years in the future will look upon people of today with distain and think that we are all barbarians.

I guess the OP thinks that people of day should be punished for the crimes of their ancestors. If that is true, then the OP should punish himself because his ancestors, Catholic or not, are guilty of murder in self-defense. Many of us today have fathers and grandfathers that killed germans during ww2. Does that mean that everyone who fought against the nazi evil and shot down a germans will go right to hell? I think not.

The fact is everyone has an ancestor that at one point or another had to kill inorder to save his/her own life.

The fact is, God is not stupid. He does not expect you to let your entire family die at the hands of a mad man. In fact, you have a right to protect them and a right to save their lives even if it means that you must shoot to kill.

I’m so sick of people who try to always blame the Church for the wars of the past. The people outside the church who have refused the message of Christ are infact the ones to blame. They are the ones to blame for forcing the good people of the world into war.

The OP should be thankfull that christian nations pulled togeather and defeated the Moors. If that didn’t happen none of us would be alive today.
 
M_Oliver,

the Bible is the History of the Hebrews and the Church until about the end of the first century. The Catholic Church and its teachings now includes all of that AND the history of the Christ’s Church from the first century until now. The doctrines and revelations since then can be found in the stories about all the saints, popes and Church councils since then.

Where in your Bible is the concept of the Holy Trinity, the divinity of Christ ? That was established at a Church council (Trent or Nicene)

Your question is akin to asking, where in Bible is the life story of St Joan of Arc or St. Padre Pio or St Juan Diego. Grab a history book from the early 1900’s and see if you can find an entry for World War II or the walk on the moon. Does than mean these events did not happen ??? - some folks will still tell you they didn’t.
 
M_Oliver said:
A true Christian never supports war.
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I guess God the Father isn’t “Christian.” He commanded the Jews to go to war all the time. In fact, nearly half of the Old Testament deals with wars and battles.
 
M_Oliver said:
If man was NOT “created flawed and with a tendency to do evil” then HOW did man sin? Your church teaches man was created in the image of God. Right? So how does a creature made in the image of God sin? Ever think about that with your own brain?Ever hear of Lucifer?
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M_Oliver said:
Your church teaches that a creature “made in the image of God” was INCAPABLE of sinning BUT it sinned anyway! HOW can something MADE IN THE IMAGE OF GOD sin when God is INCAPABLE of sinning? Are you saying God is NOT in control? Blaspheme!

The answer is it cannot, and to teach otherwise blasphemes our Creator. It is a serious contradiction of ALL identifiable churches!Haven’t we been down this road before. Man fell for the same reason Lucifer did. He has the free-will to make his own decisions, and he wanted to be like God, knowing the difference between good and evil.
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M_Oliver said:
Despite your churches claim to understand everything Our Church has NEVER made that claim.
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M_Oliver said:
they bigtime fail to see that God is CREATING man [and women] in His own image. He has NOT created man [and women] in His own image YET. Pay attention to the WORDS!

Here is some basic Scripture that speaks volumes:

For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. (1 John 2:16)

So WHERE have we heard that before? Why all the way back in Genesis BEFORE the false teaching of “the fall” promoted by the world occurred.

I’ll emphasize to help you out…

So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food[LUST OF THE FLESH], and that it was a delight to the eyes[LUST OF THE EYES], and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise[PRIDE OF LIFE], she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate. (Genesis 3:6)

So BEFORE, yes BEFORE she ate of the fruit she ALREADY possessed that which was of the world and NOT of the Father. The “fall” of man is a lie. We were created CARNAL[spirtually weak] from the beginning so that God could MOLD us into his image during our life in the flesh.

There is your “explaining”.
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Thanks M, you’re so close. It was lust and pride that caused Man’s downfall.

But just as Lucifer fell from Grace, so did man.
 
Originally Posted by M_Oliver
Despite your churches claim to understand everything
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There are a lot of things it does not understand. Most of Revelations for example. The mere attempt to interpret places one in jeopardy. You interpret it wrongly, then you have damned yourself by unintentionally adding to or taking away. Even the Church is wise to let most of Revelations lay as it is.
 
M_Oliver,

Can you be any more condescending ? First off your understanding of Catholic theology is way off base. Secondoff, your interpretation of scriptures is no better and in many cases far more off base than any one elses.

The problem with you protestants, is that each and every one of you have your own interpretation of scriptures. That is why you have literally thousands of denominations. Every time a minister disagrees with some nuance, they march off and create their own new congregation.

We have ONE interpretation of scriptures, made from centuries of research and study from thousands of Biblical scholars. SO you sit in your study read a few passages, and you want to debate Church doctrines ??? Think about it !

Did God suddenly give you some divine inspiration and access to the Truth that somehow eluded thousands of Catholic theologians and centuries of research ??? I think not.

I know you protestants believe that by just merely reading the Bible, some miracle happens and you are suddenly open to God’s Truth. Well how can that possibly be ???, when like I said there are thousands of differnent protestant viewpoints. IF your miracle of scriptural reading really happened, would they not ALL come up with the exact SAME interpretation each and every time ???

They don’t, so you are wrong, BUT notice that this is exactly what happens in the Catholic Church, we have thousands of theologians BUT we have ONE interpretation for scriptures. Now THIS is the way it is supposed to be. Is it not ?

Could it possibly be that your way is wrong ???
 
yeah for Dr. Madden,

If things go well for me, I will be studying under him next year.
I think that there is more to the past than what the modern mind thinks there is, and I agree that you cannot push modern values onto historical peoples.

A lone Raven
 
wcknight said:
M_Oliver,

Can you be any more condescending ? First off your understanding of Catholic theology is way off base. Secondoff, your interpretation of scriptures is no better and in many cases far more off base than any one elses.

The problem with you protestants, is that each and every one of you have your own interpretation of scriptures. That is why you have literally thousands of denominations. Every time a minister disagrees with some nuance, they march off and create their own new congregation.

We have ONE interpretation of scriptures, made from centuries of research and study from thousands of Biblical scholars. SO you sit in your study read a few passages, and you want to debate Church doctrines ??? Think about it !

Did God suddenly give you some divine inspiration and access to the Truth that somehow eluded thousands of Catholic theologians and centuries of research ??? I think not.

I know you protestants believe that by just merely reading the Bible, some miracle happens and you are suddenly open to God’s Truth. Well how can that possibly be ???, when like I said there are thousands of differnent protestant viewpoints. IF your miracle of scriptural reading really happened, would they not ALL come up with the exact SAME interpretation each and every time ???

They don’t, so you are wrong, BUT notice that this is exactly what happens in the Catholic Church, we have thousands of theologians BUT we have ONE interpretation for scriptures. Now THIS is the way it is supposed to be. Is it not ?

Could it possibly be that your way is wrong ???
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:clapping: :clapping: This is one of the reasons I left the Methodist Church and became Catholic.
 
If the crusades didn’t happen you’d be praying 5 times a day towards Mecca. The world would of eventually been organized into a one world goverment in submission to Islam and Islamic Law. In Islam there is no room for any other religion. You can be prosecuted under Islamic Law for converting a Muslim to your faith. So if the Christians just rolled over and allowed the Muslims to conquer the West, than there wouldn’t of been any room for Christians to practice their faith. Either under death or under the Jizz Tax, Christianity could of very well been reduced significantly.

I guess Christs Church didn’t feel like returning back to the catacombs like under Pagan Rome. I guess they didn’t feel that Christians should be taxed or killed. I suppose they felt like Christians shouldn’t be second class citizens. Perhaps this is why they fought Muslim expansion. The Church doesn’t want another Age of Martys like the one experienced under Emperor Nero. Or another period of time where people were forced to Apostate from the Catholic faith. Which is what would surely happen under Islamic rule.

So think about that next time before you condemn the Crusades. They were fought for religious survival and to prevent Muslim expansion that only expanded by the point of the sword. Not to mention to free up the pilgrim roads where Muslims were killing Christians on the road to Jerusalem.
 
Lance said:
:clapping: :clapping: This is one of the reasons I left the Methodist Church and became Catholic.
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You know, what’s funny about my conversion to Catholicism was until I started delving into Catholic theology, I never realized some of my basic understandings about the Bible, sin, and salvation were not even supported by my former Baptist faith. I’d delve into protestant responses to Catholic views and think “What? Was I asleep for 30 years?” Perhaps the high concentration of Catholics in my area influenced the local protestant churches…
 
Formosus said:
The Jews most likely fought on the side of the muslims like they did when the Persian empire attacked the Byzantine controlled Jerusalem in the early 600s. The Jews betrayed the Eastern Catholic government of Jerusalem and aided the persians in their conquering of the city. I can only imagine that during the Crusades the jewish population fought as soldiers for the Muslims , and also the first crusaders were condemned by the Pope for their actions after taking the city of Jerusalem.
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umm…I don’t think so.
 
Valke2 said:
I’m not sure how the murder and persecution of Jews during the cursades is a defensive war. And I don’t know of any catholics who even try to justify that today.
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Rest assured that you are correct on that account. IMHO.🙂

I do not think it wise we judge a time in history where we now can get on a high horse and look at this all through our lense however.
Of course, at that time many things were atrocious in all cultures.
ALL.
 
wcknight said:
M_Oliver,

Can you be any more condescending ? First off your understanding of Catholic theology is way off base. Secondoff, your interpretation of scriptures is no better and in many cases far more off base than any one elses.

The problem with you protestants, is that each and every one of you have your own interpretation of scriptures. That is why you have literally thousands of denominations. Every time a minister disagrees with some nuance, they march off and create their own new congregation.

We have ONE interpretation of scriptures, made from centuries of research and study from thousands of Biblical scholars. SO you sit in your study read a few passages, and you want to debate Church doctrines ??? Think about it !

Did God suddenly give you some divine inspiration and access to the Truth that somehow eluded thousands of Catholic theologians and centuries of research ??? I think not.

I know you protestants believe that by just merely reading the Bible, some miracle happens and you are suddenly open to God’s Truth. Well how can that possibly be ???, when like I said there are thousands of differnent protestant viewpoints. IF your miracle of scriptural reading really happened, would they not ALL come up with the exact SAME interpretation each and every time ???

They don’t, so you are wrong, BUT notice that this is exactly what happens in the Catholic Church, we have thousands of theologians BUT we have ONE interpretation for scriptures. Now THIS is the way it is supposed to be. Is it not ?

Could it possibly be that your way is wrong ???
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This is one of the most absurd posts I’ve ever read in my life. You really are clueless aren’t you? Or are you just joking? I still love you though!
 
Lance said:
:clapping: :clapping: This is one of the reasons I left the Methodist Church and became Catholic.
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Well, since the post you based this post on was a lie you might just have a problem here 🙂
 
JoeyWarren said:
There are a lot of things it does not understand. Most of Revelations for example. The mere attempt to interpret places one in jeopardy. You interpret it wrongly, then you have damned yourself by unintentionally adding to or taking away. Even the Church is wise to let most of Revelations lay as it is.
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So why then does its members attack so viciously those who have more understanding? They usually use the excuse that their “church” says so and that is the final word. You see, this is the problem that I have with ALL identifiable “churches”, their members are not even in agreement. This is contrary to the Scriptures…
 
Charity, charity, M_Oliver. Especially from someone preaching tolerance and no war is justified…

Besides, how was that post a lie? Wait, don’t answer that…START ANOTHER THREAD! Let’s not tackle everything in this one. Especially since some poor misguided people are going to think we’re discussing the Crusades and all…you know, because of the title of the thread…

:pAnd I said I wasn’t going to fight this war again…
 
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