Catholics & Children

[askeptic]

Le Cracquere:

I was born, raised, and have lived my entire life as an evangelical Protestant, but have felt increasingly drawn toward the Catholic Church by study and by personal cogitation. My wife of thirteen years doesn’t see the appeal, and if I converted, would not come along for the ride. Among many other objections, a major sticking point for her (and for me as well) is what one takes to be Catholic teaching about reproduction—i.e., we gather that Catholic married couples must not only eschew contraception, but must have children if at all possible.

Now, every Catholic argument about children I’ve encountered so far has taken the blessing that is children as a self-evident starting point with which no one could possibly quibble. To put it mildly, we don’t begin at that starting point. In fact, saying that I dislike children doesn’t really cover it: I’m trying to recall a single child that I’ve met over the last year and haven’t felt a strong urge to kick, and I’m drawing a blank. My wife & I could happily go the rest of our lives without ever meeting a child, much less housing one or more, but we get the persistent impression that the Church doesn’t see this as a valid way to live, natural family planning or not. Hope I haven’t hurt the feelings of the countless philoprogenitives on this list, but what, exactly, are an unreconstructed child-hater’s options?

Le Cracquere

I am an agnostic, but using common sense I can tell you that I don’t think you should have any children unless your state of mind changes.

What would happen if you became Catholic and had a child out of a sense of “duty”? You would perhaps feel a lot of resentment towards that child, perhaps you would not give him all your love and attention, you might neglect him, make him feel the lack of love and welcome, you might even abuse him verbally and perhaps even physically.

Even within Catholicism, I would say that you have a good reason not to have children. It is not in any child’s interest to be raised by parents who practically hate children and never want to have any.

 

[JamesG]

A catholic marriage encurages men and women to learn more about their bodies and to master them.

There is something very pure when you say to God, “I am willing to learn about the purity of the body that you have given me”

“Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body,” (1 Cor. 6:19-20).

Being married is not a free ticket to desecrate the template of the holy sprit.

 

[JamesG]

askeptic:

IEven within Catholicism, I would say that you have a good reason not to have children. It is not in any child’s interest to be raised by parents who practically hate children and never want to have any.

I think that if I wasn’t born my parents would of split up. I was a gift to them from God. Even when I was under the age of 10 I was mending the wounds of my parents marriage.

Today they are still togeather and I am still helping them.

When you give God the gift of a child he returns his love for you.

That love will usually help you find faith and enter the kingdom of God.

So I would have to strongly disagree with you. Sure a few parents might hate childern, but you won’t be able to enter the kingdom of God with that mindset. If a child is granted to such a couple it could very well be a baby from God that shows them the path to eternal life.

A couples fear of childern can be turned completely around when they look upon him/her and see the face of christ looking up at them, asking for love.

 

[askeptic]

JamesG:

I think that if I wasn’t born my parents would of split up. I was a gift to them from God. Even when I was under the age of 10 I was mending the wounds of my parents marriage.

Today they are still togeather and I am still helping them.

When you give God the gift of a child he returns his love for you.

That love will usually help you find faith and enter the kingdom of God.

So I would have to strongly disagree with you. Sure a few parents might hate childern, but you won’t be able to enter the kingdom of God with that mindset. If a child is granted to such a couple it could very well be a baby from God that shows them the path to eternal life.

A couples fear of childern can be turned completely around when they look upon him/her and see the face of christ looking up at them, asking for love.

I’m glad that things worked out for you and your parents, but they don’t work out for everyone (see statistics on child abuse).

You might be right, but you might also be wrong, and I don’t think it is wise to risk a child’s mental and physical well being by telling the original poster that he should have children.

Furthermore, it seems that the original poster and his wife will not be happy if they have children. What’s the point of doing something that will cause them to be unhappy and will put the children they will have at risk?

 

[JamesG]

askeptic:

I’m glad that things worked out for you and your parents, but they don’t work out for everyone (see statistics on child abuse).

You might be right, but you might also be wrong, and I don’t think it is wise to risk a child’s mental and physical well being by telling the original poster that he should have children.

Furthermore, it seems that the original poster and his wife will not be happy if they have children. What’s the point of doing something that will cause them to be unhappy and will put the children they will have at risk?

My how little faith you have.

I am trying to tell this couple that marriage is for the purpose of life. Not for selfish sexual gratification. Our body is a temple of the Holy Spirit and we must honor God with it.

Many people are afraid of children because they are afraid of responsibility and because they have doubt in their hearts. But I say to them that there is nothing that will make a man out of you more then the struggle to support a child. There is also nothing that will make you more of a woman then to nurture a child! That is just a fact of life and we must accept that we are always learning what it means to be a man and what it means to be a woman

Look at the humble birth of Christ. Was he not at a greater risk then any of us could possibly imagine? King Herod was having the fist born of every family killed by the thousands in search for him. He was born in a stable!

Would you have denied Christ his life because you where afraid that he could experience risk? Would you have denied Christ his life because his mother Mary ran the risk of death from childbirth? )

I guess you would have looked at the statistics for a first-born male children 2000 years ago and ran in fear! You would of said, "oh too many children and their mothers don’t survive child birth. Oh he is could experience a mental health problem because his mother is poor!

Don’t make be laugh with your modern statistics. You can NEVER justify the prevention of life. Love leads to life. God is love.

Furthermore, so what if the child has a mental problem? Does that mean that Christ cannot work through that child? Don’t forget when people need help in this world there are many people who find Christ by helping them.

I say to you that if a childs suffering changes the heart of one soul then that is ALL that maters.

Your message is a call to fear and emptiness. Christ’s message is a call to faith and love.

It is only through faith in christ that we can accept life.

 

[Lorarose]

I don’t think it is wise to risk a child’s mental and physical well being by telling the original poster that he should have children.

You don’t know any more abou the op than the rest of us.
It is fair to say he is a christian and is willing to look at this through a christian perspective.

He has stated his case. He doesn’t like kids.
And if that is how he remains - then you are right - it isn’t wise to have children if you aren’t going to like them.

However, christians add the grace of God into the equation.
There are many people (myself included) who have had a change of heart regarding children.
In my case I simply did not understand them very well, and when I was younger I was self centered.

The heart can change, attitudes can change. People sometimes mature and grow out of certain ideas.

I think the big question I’m wondering is …WHY doesn’t this man like children?
Is it a lack of understanding?
Is it just natural repulsion he feels but cannot explain?
Is it rooted in his own childhood?

It is possible if he can figure out why he feels this way, he may wind up figuring out how to overcome it.

 

[askeptic]

JamesG:

My how little faith you have.

I am trying to tell this couple that marriage is for the purpose of life. Not for selfish sexual gratification. Our body is a temple of the Holy Spirit and we must honor God with it.

Many people are afraid of children because they are afraid of responsibility and because they have doubt in their hearts. But I say to them that there is nothing that will make a man out of you more then the struggle to support a child. There is also nothing that will make you more of a woman then to nurture a child! That is just a fact of life and we must accept that we are always learning what it means to be a man and what it means to be a woman

Look at the humble birth of Christ. Was he not at a greater risk then any of us could possibly imagine? King Herod was having the fist born of every family killed by the thousands in search for him. He was born in a stable!

Would you have denied Christ his life because you where afraid that he could experience risk? Would you have denied Christ his life because his mother Mary ran the risk of death from childbirth? )

I guess you would have looked at the statistics for a first-born male children 2000 years ago and ran in fear! You would of said, "oh too many children and their mothers don’t survive child birth. Oh he is could experience a mental health problem because his mother is poor!

Don’t make be laugh with your modern statistics. You can NEVER justify the prevention of life. Love leads to life. God is love.

Furthermore, so what if the child has a mental problem? Does that mean that Christ cannot work through that child? Don’t forget when people need help in this world there are many people who find Christ by helping them.

I say to you that if a childs suffering changes the heart of one soul then that is ALL that maters.

Your message is a call to fear and emptiness. Christ’s message is a call to faith and love.

It is only through faith in christ that we can accept life.

Suppose there is a God, perhaps the fact that this man and his wife do not like children is a sign that God is calling them to remain childless. Maybe they are called to dedicate their time to other, equally legitimate, pursuits.

Do you think that the sex life of infertile couples is all about “sexual gratification”? Perhaps it is about love, about intimacy, about being close to the person you love? If there is a God, then sex is pleasurable for a reason, and there is nothing wrong with enjoying it.

Somehow I think that your message instills far more fear in the original poster than mine. Somehow I don’t think he feels a great deal of love when confronted with a supposed obligation to procreate.

What’s right for one family may be wrong for another. The human race is not in danger of extinction from too few births, no one is going to be hurt if they remain childless.

 

[JamesG]

askeptic:

Suppose there is a God, perhaps the fact that this man and his wife do not like children is a sign that God is calling them to remain childless. Maybe they are called to dedicate their time to other, equally legitimate, pursuits.

Do you think that the sex life of infertile couples is all about “sexual gratification”? Perhaps it is about love, about intimacy, about being close to the person you love? If there is a God, then sex is pleasurable for a reason, and there is nothing wrong with enjoying it.

Somehow I think that your message instills far more fear in the original poster than mine. Somehow I don’t think he feels a great deal of love when confronted with a supposed obligation to procreate.

What’s right for one family may be wrong for another. The human race is not in danger of extinction from too few births, no one is going to be hurt if they remain childless.

We are predestined to reproduce. So there is never a call from God Not of reproduce. You either can reproduce or you can’t.

God might call a couple that can’t have children to seek out a child in need and adopt it.

381 Man is predestined to reproduce the image of God’s Son made man, the “image of the invisible God” (Col 1:15), so that Christ shall be the first-born of a multitude of brothers and sisters (cf. Eph 1:3-6; Rom 8:29).

Gods message is a call to faith. If the prospect of life makes you run in fear then that is of your own choice and you lack faith.

There is no obligation for anyone to accept God. You can either accept him into your heart or you can reject him

We cannot blindly accept the pleasures of the body without first understanding that it is create by God. In order to do that, we must learn to master it.

377 The “mastery” over the world that God offered man from the beginning was realized above all within man himself: mastery of self. The first man was unimpaired and ordered in his whole being because he was free from the triple concupiscence254 that subjugates him to the pleasures of the senses, covetousness for earthly goods, and self-assertion, contrary to the dictates of reason.

We should never be afraid of life through sex. God always wants to be a part of our love for each other. That is the natural relationship between God and us. He always wants to be part of creation. All we need do is have faith.

366 The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not “produced” by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.235

Regardless marriage is not for the purpose of worldly pleasures and worldly concepts of love. True love in the spiritual realm is ALWAYS open to life. When we die there won’t be any reason for sex not to create life. There will be no fear and Gods love will be all around us and our children. There will be no sin for us to worry about. Hence is it only sin and doubt that discourage children. God NEVER tells us not to have children.

 

[askeptic]

JamesG:

We are predestined to reproduce. So there is never a call from God Not of reproduce. You either can reproduce or you can’t.

God might call a couple that can’t have children to seek out a child in need and adopt it.

381 Man is predestined to reproduce the image of God’s Son made man, the “image of the invisible God” (Col 1:15), so that Christ shall be the first-born of a multitude of brothers and sisters (cf. Eph 1:3-6; Rom 8:29).

Gods message is a call to faith. If the prospect of life makes you run in fear then that is of your own choice and you lack faith.

There is no obligation for anyone to accept God. You can either accept him into your heart or you can reject him

We cannot blindly accept the pleasures of the body without first understanding that it is create by God. In order to do that, we must learn to master it.

377 The “mastery” over the world that God offered man from the beginning was realized above all within man himself: mastery of self. The first man was unimpaired and ordered in his whole being because he was free from the triple concupiscence254 that subjugates him to the pleasures of the senses, covetousness for earthly goods, and self-assertion, contrary to the dictates of reason.

We should never be afraid of life through sex. God always wants to be a part of our love for each other. That is the natural relationship between God and us. He always wants to be part of creation. All we need do is have faith.

366 The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not “produced” by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.235

Regardless marriage is not for the purpose of worldly pleasures and worldly concepts of love. True love in the spiritual realm is ALWAYS open to life. When we die there won’t be any reason for sex not to create life. There will be no fear and Gods love will be all around us and our children. There will be no sin for us to worry about. Hence is it only sin and doubt that discourage children. God NEVER tells us not to have children.

If anything is “self-assertion” it is claiming that you know precisely what God is thinking.

I think many people should not have children, among them are women for whom pregnancy would be dangerous, people who cannot financially support children, people who love each other, are married, but would nonetheless like to dedicate their entire lives to something that precludes children (say they want to travel to the third world to build houses and infrastructure), people who would not make good parents (this includes people who don’t like or want children), and the list goes on.

Furthermore, as the earth becomes more and more overpopulated eventually authorities will have to introduce strict laws prohibiting couples from having too many children, and those laws will be a great idea because the earth simply cannot support an infinite number of human beings.

Somehow I think that God created this world and put us in it so that we might enjoy our lives here, not reject everything he has created.

My advice to you is to relax and enjoy life, it could very well be the only existence you will have.

 

[gardenswithkids]

askeptic:

Furthermore, as the earth becomes more and more overpopulated eventually authorities will have to introduce strict laws prohibiting couples from having too many children, and those laws will be a great idea because the earth simply cannot support an infinite number of human beings.

Dear askeptic,

Perhaps you could apply some of your skepticism to those who planted the idea in your head that the earth is overpopulated. Maybe try reading about the current population problem in Europe, where the problem is they are not replacing their aging population with enough youth.

I also suggest you apply some of your skepticism towards whatever “authorities” you trust to determine who gets to reproduce how many. Personally, I’m skeptical of governments attempting eugenics.

askeptic:

Somehow I think that God created this world and put us in it so that we might enjoy our lives here, not reject everything he has created.

I agree that God didn’t intend us to reject everything that He created–and it is you who rejects the way He designed our reproductive system by suggesting that we not use them for pro-creation beyond whatever limits some government authority pre-determines for humanity.

Askeptic, I will pray for you. While the original poster seems to be struggling with these issues, you seem to believe everything that secular society tells you. Try to be a bit more of a skeptic.

 

[Lorarose]

The world is not overpopulated - that is a myth.
In fact…many countries are finding themselves in dire need of babies, and have resorted to bribery to get more people to have them.

 

[askeptic]

gardenswithkids:

Dear askeptic,

Perhaps you could apply some of your skepticism to those who planted the idea in your head that the earth is overpopulated. Maybe try reading about the current population problem in Europe, where the problem is they are not replacing their aging population with enough youth.

I agree with you that the Western world is not overpopulated, some Asian cities on the other hand are.

Either way, unless we limit growth eventually the earth will become overpopulated. After all, the earth is finite.

I also suggest you apply some of your skepticism towards whatever “authorities” you trust to determine who gets to reproduce how many. Personally, I’m skeptical of governments attempting eugenics.

I would prefer it never happened either, but if we continue to grow eventually there will be no space for additional human beings. A fair way to restrict growth would be to limit each family, regardless of their background, to one or two children.

I agree that God didn’t intend us to reject everything that He created–and it is you who rejects the way He designed our reproductive system by suggesting that we not use them for pro-creation beyond whatever limits some government authority pre-determines for humanity.

Askeptic, I will pray for you. While the original poster seems to be struggling with these issues, you seem to believe everything that secular society tells you. Try to be a bit more of a skeptic.

How about we make a deal, I will be more skeptical of what secular society “tells me” and you will be more skeptical about what the Catholic Church tells you.

There might be a God, and it is entirely possible that he had nothing whatsoever to do with the Catholic Church.

Always use your reason and your moral conscience to judge what’s right and wrong.

 

[Le_Cracquere]

Oh, dear—I step away from the list for a day and find temperatures rising. I don’t have much time to write, but I’d feel remiss letting people debate on my behalf without saying a word.

I hate to feel as if I’m stiff-arming someone trying to take my side in a debate, but my skeptical friend’s arguments are a little beside the point of my own. They have something in common with my own gut feelings, but simply to “enjoy our lives here” because “it could very well be the only existence you will have,” isn’t enough. Boiled down, that translates in practice to a sort of nihilism that would have gagged Epicurus, and which it certainly wasn’t my intent to advocate.

It also might be going a little far to imply, as one poster did, that my heart might be changed by a more perfect understanding of children. I’ve known a few, and remember quite clearly being a child myself, thank you—if anything, I’ve suspected that enjoying children might require a certain healthy sentimentality that overacute memories work against. I’m trying to work through Catholic teaching on this point; I just wish that folks wouldn’t associate my inability to feel the above sentiments with selfishness and an unhealthy attachment to “earthly pleasures.”

askeptic:

Always use your reason and your moral conscience to judge what’s right and wrong.

Well-meant advice. I’d say, though, that part of Wisdom 101 is learning the limits of one’s own reason & moral conscience, and examining the mixed fortunes of men who have lived by their own reasons and m.c. alone. I’d recommend a stiff drink before undertaking the latter, though.

 

[cynic]

JamesG:

My how little faith you have.

I am trying to tell this couple that marriage is for the purpose of life. Not for selfish sexual gratification.

.

so you would disagree with a couple using NFP, ever. Or an older couple having sex, or an infertile couple, or a couple that are already pregnant, since the only purpose left in it is “selfish sexual gratifcation”. I wonder what Adam and Eve were doing before they were commanded to multiply… indulging in the sin of enjoying each others company without children…oh no, how disgusting.

 

[gardenswithkids]

Le Cracquere:

…I’ve suspected that enjoying children might require a certain healthy sentimentality that overacute memories work against. I’m trying to work through Catholic teaching on this point…

I suspect that enjoying children also requires a certain grace from God that He has for some reason not given you as of yet. I have always wanted and liked children; I did nothing to bring about those warm fuzzy feelings. Yet at times my own children can get under my skin in ways no one else can. I don’t consider those hostile feelings to be coming from the better part of me. I think you must have a terrible cross to bear by having such hostile feelings emerge whenever children are around you.

We aren’t required to enjoy children in order to be Catholic, but we are called to Christian charity in bearing the faults of others.

 

[Reena]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=1296504#post1296504

I am the same person as ASkeptic, since my account was suspended I read over my posts and thought I shoudl apologize. Read there if you’re interested.