Catholics, Christains, Sunni, Shia, Muslims, PLEASE READ!

[rcwitness]

As you see I already am engaging with highly educated Catholics, however none can provide that the Only Catholic Church has the legit apostolic traditions. that is all what I am saying.

All valid Christian Churches hold Apostolic Traditions. If they didnt, they would not be valid Christian Churches at all.

The Catholic Church is the Church founded on Peter, by Jesus Himself. That Church continues, undivided through the Bishop of Rome, and all the faithful who receive at Her Eucharistic table. In Her deposit of faith, there is the fullness of Truth and Apostolic Teaching. There are also practices and customs subject to change, and even failure. There are also sinners who do damage to the Church itself. They can be anyone from the least layman, to a Bishop of Rome.

 

[OneBlanketBoss]

All valid Christian Churches hold Apostolic Traditions. If they didnt, they would not be valid Christian Churches at all.

The Catholic Church is the Church founded on Peter, by Jesus Himself. That Church continues, undivided through the Bishop of Rome, and all the faithful who receive at Her Eucharistic table. In Her deposit of faith, there is the fullness of Truth and Apostolic Teaching. There are also practices and customs subject to change, and even failure. There are also sinners who do damage to the Church itself. They can be anyone from the least layman, to a Bishop of Rome.

Please provide historical proof Jesus founded the Church on Peter, without quoting Matthew 16:18, because that is a verse that we can not trace back to Peter or Jesus.

 

[rcwitness]

Please provide historical proof Jesus founded the Church on Peter, without quoting Matthew 16:18, because that is a verse that we can not trace back to Peter or Jesus.

Why would any other document be more credible than Scripture?

The good news in the Scriptures must inevitably be received in faith. You either recognize the voice of the Shepherd, or you dont.

The other matters come through prayer, receiving the Sacraments, struggling against sin, and acknowledging the Holy Spirit working in your heart.

Sometimes we fail. Sometimes we struggle more with something than our brother. So we are encouraged through others, but also encourage others too!

It’s OK to ask some of your questions. But if you don’t hear the Giver of Life speaking to you in the Scriptures, your faith will not lead you. Everything will collapse around you.

You will doubt the existence of God altogether, or believe a deception that Jesus is not the Son of God.

 

[MartinJordan]

Muslims have no case for historical accuracy in particular about Abraham taking Isaac to be the Sacrifice as a test from God. The Qur’an doesn’t even name the son. So OBB, what do say?

MJ

 

[MartinJordan]

why would any other document be more credible than scripture?

The good news in the scriptures must inevitably be received in faith. You either recognize the voice of the shepherd, or you dont.

The other matters come through prayer, receiving the sacraments, struggling against sin, and acknowledging the holy spirit working in your heart.

Sometimes we fail. Sometimes we struggle more with something than our brother. So we are encouraged through others, but also encourage others too!

It’s ok to ask some of your questions. But if you don’t hear the giver of life speaking to you in the scriptures, your faith will not lead you. Everything will collapse around you.

You will doubt the existence of god altogether, or believe a deception that jesus is not the son of god.

+1

Btw, John 1 has Peter being Head of the Church. That makes three examples. Which includes John 21.

MJ

 

[Robyn_p]

Can you provide proof that Apostolic tradition started with the apostles themselves? Any documents outside the bible?

Hi OneBlanketBoss

Can you clarify exactly what kind of documents you are looking for. Are you talking about writings of the apostles themselves outside of Sacred Scripture? Or something else?

No you can not. You only have sacred tradition back to Catholic and Orthodox Church fathers. Not the apostles themselves.

Well, Sacred Scripture actually IS part of Sacred Tradition, so yes in fact we do. Unless you believe Matthew wasn’t really written by Matthew, John by John, The letter of James by James etc… Which we could discuss the evidence for if you would like.

Also, Papias, Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp, and Clement of Rome all personally knew the apostles and were taught by them. And we have writings from all four of those men. Would you agree that once removed from the apostles is pretty strong evidence for Sacred Tradition? All four of these men taught that Jesus was the incarnate Son of God and several other teachings that Catholics (and all Christians really) still hold today.

What original Letters of The Apostles are you referring to? According to my research there is not one single document that can be traced to anybody that knew Jesus personally. If I am mistaken please give me the source.

The question is; where are the teachings of Peter, James, John, the MOTHER OF JESUS, ect.?

Why do you believe that the letters of Peter, James, Jude and John are not traceable to the apostles themselves? Can you explain your reasoning?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

OneBlanketBoss
Can you provide proof that Apostolic tradition started with the apostles themselves? Any documents outside the bible?

One indisputable Sacred Tradition handed down to us since apostolic times is revealed in the sign of the cross, which Catholics continue to practice and live by today.

In our profession of faith, includes a prominent historical figure by the name of PONTIUS PILATE. This first century Palestinian Roman Procurator is named, and places our Catholic faith directly to Jesus and the apostles. There is too much secular, Jewish, and Catholic history here for your to refute, this Sacred Tradition of the Crucifixion, took place first, then it becomes a matter of fact and record in the New Testament, Jewish history and secular Pagan Rome history.

Historical documents Outside of the Apostolic Traditional Last Supper, instituted by Jesus Christ who commanded His apostles “to do in memory of me”. **Pliny the younger **who is persecuting and arresting Christians writes two Letters to the Pagan Roman Emperor Trajan. In one of the letters, Pliny writes to the Emperor and describes almost verbatim, the Sacred Traditional (Last Supper) Mass celebrated today in the Roman Catholic Rite, which is unchanged since Jesus instituted the Last Supper, which the Catholic Church continues to celebrate today unchanged. The first century Jewish historian Josephus gives a witness account of this Sacred Tradition.

Here is a Sacred Tradition that you cannot contest today; John 15:19 If you were of the world, it would love you as its own. Instead, the world hates you, because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. 20 Remember the word that I spoke to you: ‘No servant is greater than his master.’’ If they persecuted Me, they will persecute you as well; if they kept My word, they will keep yours as well. 21 But they will treat you like this on account of My name, because they do not know the One who sent Me.…
This Jewish and Pagan Rome persecution of first century Christians continues once again in our lifetime when the dubbed “JV team” = ISIS is now part of a recent historical record who chopped off the heads of Christian citizens as Pagan Rome did to St. Paul and Crucified non-Citizen Christians in the Streets for all to see.

Negative as this reality is; Jesus Words recorded from the first century continues to remain a reality in the persecution of Christians for Loving Jesus, this is the proof and measurement of Sacred Tradition that is handed down Orally by Jesus and His apostles and later written, and is fully realized in life, just as the Liturgy of the Mass.

The First three Bishop’s of Rome are recorded in the bible we have today, beginning with St. Peter, Every pope or bishop of Rome can trace her lineage to the Apostle Peter. Look up Papacy or Popes in the secular Britannica encyclopedia, and you will find a list.

Here is another Sacred Tradition revealed outside of the Catholic Church for you, in the sacrament of holy orders of the Catholic Church today, which survives over 2000 years and is witnessed by another Pagan Roman Emperor, who is recorded in secular history that confirms the first century Overseer = Episcopacy = Bishop of Rome today. The Emperor feared the Bishop’s of Rome. Below gives witness to Sacred Tradition. The overseer or Episcopacy which were elected by the original apostles is recorded by the first century pagan Roman Emperor here; When you read the bible today, we find Sacred Tradition well under way and in full practice in 52 a.d, before all of the apostolic letters are ever written.

**“So writes the Roman historian Suetonius about events in Rome around 52. … Claudius likely and inadvertently was the first emperor, then, to persecute … In one letter he tells Pliny how to deal with Christians “They are not to be hunted out . … far rather receive news of a rival to the throne than of another bishop of Rome”
**.”christianitytoday.com/history/issues/issue-27/persecution-in-early-church-gallery-of-persecuting-emperors.html

If you were Jewish and attended a Roman Rite Apostolic Mass, You as a Jew would be able to follow the ancient Jewish prayers with Catholics in the Mass. The reality is; Your objection has no merit, because it reveals your ignorance of the TRUE Judaeo Christian Apostolic Tradition, that has been handed down to us since Jesus Christ and His apostles.

While the Christian faith in Jesus Christ is practiced unchanged today since the Last Supper, you look for an original document?

cont;

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

cont;
The Original document of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic faith is seen and revealed in the life of the Catholic Church liturgy and Sacraments. Although the first century Jews and pagan Rome may have burned all the original writings of the apostles. What Jesus said and did, is still alive today. What you read in the New Testament is a record of how Sacred Tradition is being lived out since apostolic times.

If? you are familiar with the ancient Jewish liturgy from the first century? When a Jew attends a Mass (Last Supper) Liturgy today, a Jew would recognize it, thus the Sacred Traditional practices are well underway before the Last Apostle John’s life expires, when divine revelation ends, which begins the copying and distribution of the original apostolic letters.

Again, outside of the Apostolic Catholic Faith, the first century Jews gives witness to the Sacred Tradition, who were present with the Christians when Jesus and the apostles walked the earth, in addition we have a second witness in the secular Pagan Roman powers of the first century forward. They attest to the Sacred Oral Tradition which is later recorded in the New Testament bible we have today, unchanged.

**We have a third witness to the apostolic Sacred Tradition **and divine revelations from the apostolic successors who walked and talked with the apostles. These Bishop’s write, although their writings are never inspired. The do witness the Last Supper Eucharist, Baptism, Holy Spirit, Crucifixion, Resurrection and especially the Words of Jesus Christ giving His Divine keys (authority) to St. Peter to bind and loose on earth, Jesus will bind and loose in heaven.

These letters are outside of the New Testament. Your argument for a document to survive the first four hundred years of Christian persecution to the present is baseless and carries no merit. When Jewish and secular history as well as Catholic History have members who are present in this history and confirms my Catholic Faith is founded by Jesus Christ and handed down to me, by Oral Sacred Apostolic Tradition and Sacred Scripture.

The authoritative divine Keys Jesus gave to St. Peter ( the first Bishop of Rome) from the first century, is still present in bishop of Rome the Pope , who presides in the Chair of Peter. This is a Sacred Tradition that is unchanged and has survived, over 2000 years of persecution, wars, heresies and martyrdom.

**Finally your argument against the bible books of the New Testament could not survive the scrutiny by biblical historical scholars, and secular academic historians who prove that the bible books of the New Testament is one of the most accurate historical records of all time, although the originals are lost, historical academics traced the New Testament message survived in the faith of the Catholic Christians since apostolic times.
**
Thus your argument is secular. And your argument would never survive the scrutiny by religious Christian and Jewish historians on a theological and philosophical perspective. Because the theology of the Christian/Judaeo faith has not changed since Jesus and the apostles walked the earth.

When you argue from this position (looking for an original apostolic letter) to try and disprove the Catholic Christian Faith since apostolic times, such an argument stands by default.

**We know that Peter still presides in the bishop of Rome the Pope today unchanged with the Keys Jesus gives Peter. Who administers God’s love by his living example.

Where is Muhammad’s successor? or where is the ONE in Islam who administers Allah’s LOVE by example?**

Peace be with you

 

[tgGodsway]

Can you provide proof that Apostolic tradition started with the apostles themselves? Any documents outside the bible?

tgGodsway: Why search outside of the Apostle’s record?.. the New Testament bible serves as a perfect historical record including all of the eye witnesses needed to the resurrection. Apostolic tradition was simply the Apostle’s doctrine, nothing more and nothing less. 1st. and 2nd. Century Christian literature was rarely circulated because of the hostility and persecution of Christians. It was illegal to be a Christian at this time.

In all Honesty, I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

No you can not. You only have sacred tradition back to Catholic and Orthodox Church fathers. Not the apostles themselves.

The original written Letter’s of the apostles were copied and distributed throughout the Roman Empire into Asian minor. Not to mention, when the persecuted Catholic faithful were caught practicing their apostolic sacred Traditions recorded in the apostolic letters were found. The Ceasars confiscated all and burned them as well as executed the Catholic Martrys including the apostles.

What original Letters of The Apostles are you referring to? According to my research there is not one single document that can be traced to anybody that knew Jesus personally. If I am mistaken please give me the source.

I understand, however the Gospels were also verbally handed down before it was compiled and considered as divine scripture. Other books that were not included in the cannon were also spread within non catholic groups. My question is; where are the teachings of Peter, James, John, the MOTHER OF JESUS, ect.?

Alright.

I believe the Crucifixion was indeed a historical event. I just don’t believe in the Catholic group that firmly states “we have the apostolic tradition” yet can not prove it.

stepping in here again. I agree that Roman Catholic tradition, as it is defined by them, is not the same thing as Apostolic tradition. Paul was clear on what that tradition was, especially in light of the negative comments about tradition in general offered by Jesus Christ. tgGodsway

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

tgGodsway;14891691]stepping in here again. I agree that Roman Catholic tradition, as it is defined by them, is not the same thing as Apostolic tradition.

I know of oral Sacred Tradition, I know of small “t” tradition, but I have never heard of a Roman Catholic tradition defined by who? The Sacred Oral Apostolic Traditions are practiced and taught within the Roman Catholic Church.

Paul was clear on what that tradition was, especially in light of the negative comments about tradition in general offered by Jesus Christ. tgGodsway

I believe you are confused in the biblical traditions being referenced here.
Paul was clear in refuting Jewish traditions, as well as Jesus refuting the traditions of the Mosaic law keepers.

Paul clearly teaches about the Christian of the Apostolic faith, that he hands down by oral or written Tradition. Paul says that much Christian teaching is to be found in the tradition which is handed down by word of mouth (2 Tim. 2:2).** He instructs us to “stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter” (2 Thess. 2:15). **

So the Jewish traditions St. Paul and Jesus reject are not the same Traditions Paul and the Apostles are handing down from Jesus to us. Please let us be clear.

Peace be with you

 

[tgGodsway]

cont;
The Original document of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic faith is seen and revealed in the life of the Catholic Church liturgy and Sacraments. Although the first century Jews and pagan Rome may have burned all the original writings of the apostles. What Jesus said and did, is still alive today. What you read in the New Testament is a record of how Sacred Tradition is being lived out since apostolic times.

TGGODSWAY CHIMING IN HERE: THIS THOUGHT IS LUTICRIS . THERE WERE THOUSANDS OF COPIES MADE AND CIRCULATED THROUGHOUT THE ROMAN EMPIRE TO WHICH ROME COULD NOT STOMP OUT, NOT TO MENTION THE MANY PLACES AROUND THE WORLD OUTSIDE OF ROME’S REACH…
THE SO-CALLED SACRED TRADITION ROMAN CATHOLICS ADHERE TO TODAY, IN MANY CASES CONTRADICT APOSTOLIC TRADITION=DOCTRINE. SACRED TRADITION HAS BEEN A TWO-THOUSAND YEAR- EVOLUTION OF EXTRA BIBLICAL REVELATION, AND ROME KNOWS IT.

If? you are familiar with the ancient Jewish liturgy from the first century? When a Jew attends a Mass (Last Supper) Liturgy today, a Jew would recognize it, thus the Sacred Traditional practices are well underway before the Last Apostle John’s life expires, when divine revelation ends, which begins the copying and distribution of the original apostolic letters. AGAIN, TRUE SECRED TRADITION IS AN ADHEREANCE TO APOSTOLIC DOCTRINE= THIS DOCTRINE WAS AND IS, SACRED SCRIPTURE.

Again, outside of the Apostolic Catholic Faith, the first century Jews gives witness to the Sacred Tradition, who were present with the Christians when Jesus and the apostles walked the earth, in addition we have a second witness in the secular Pagan Roman powers of the first century forward. They attest to the Sacred Oral Tradition which is later recorded in the New Testament bible we have today, unchanged. EVERYONE KNOWS ROME HAS DEFINED SECRED TRADITION TO MEAN, ORAL DECREES, CHURCH COUNCILS, ECT. AS AN ON-GOING REVELATION ROOTED IN THE APOSTLES. BUT IT IS NOT. IT CONTRADICTS IN MANY PLACES.

**We have a third witness to the apostolic Sacred Tradition **and divine revelations from the apostolic successors who walked and talked with the apostles. These Bishop’s write, although their writings are never inspired. The do witness the Last Supper Eucharist, Baptism, Holy Spirit, Crucifixion, Resurrection and especially the Words of Jesus Christ giving His Divine keys (authority) to St. Peter to bind and loose on earth, Jesus will bind and loose in heaven.

THE MOMENT THE INK HIT THE PAGE WHEN THE APOSTLES AND TRUSTED WRITERS LIKE LUKE WROTE THEIR EPISTLES, IT BECAME HOLY SCRIPTURE. IT DID NOT WAIT FOR A ROMAN COUNCIL TO SCRUTINIZE IT, THOUGH THEY DID.

These letters are outside of the New Testament. Your argument for a document to survive the first four hundred years of Christian persecution to the present is baseless and carries no merit. When Jewish and secular history as well as Catholic History have members who are present in this history and confirms my Catholic Faith is founded by Jesus Christ and handed down to me, by Oral Sacred Apostolic Tradition and Sacred Scripture.

The authoritative divine Keys Jesus gave to St. Peter ( the first Bishop of Rome) from the first century, is still present in bishop of Rome the Pope , who presides in the Chair of Peter. This is a Sacred Tradition that is unchanged and has survived, over 2000 years of persecution, wars, heresies and martyrdom. THIS TRADITION IS ONE OF ROME’S MOST UNCONVINCING TRADITION. THE APOSTLES ALL KNEW PETER WAS CALLED TO THE JEWS NOT THE GENTILES.

**Finally your argument against the bible books of the New Testament could not survive the scrutiny by biblical historical scholars, and secular academic historians who prove that the bible books of the New Testament is one of the most accurate historical records of all time, although the originals are lost, historical academics traced the New Testament message survived in the faith of the Catholic Christians since apostolic times.
**
Thus your argument is secular. And your argument would never survive the scrutiny by religious Christian and Jewish historians on a theological and philosophical perspective. Because the theology of the Christian/Judaeo faith has not changed since Jesus and the apostles walked the earth.

When you argue from this position (looking for an original apostolic letter) to try and disprove the Catholic Christian Faith since apostolic times, such an argument stands by default.

**We know that Peter still presides in the bishop of Rome the Pope today unchanged with the Keys Jesus gives Peter. Who administers God’s love by his living example.

Where is Muhammad’s successor? or where is the ONE in Islam who administers Allah’s LOVE by example?**

Peace be with you

 

[ericc]

Dear Community,

I read all of your responses and I am thankful that some of you took the time to reply to this thread. I am just begging the question here. Do we have one singular document that we have that can be traced back to the disciples of Jesus? Whether you are Christian or Muslim, how can you prove that Jesus was either the literal Divine Son of God or God’s Chosen Prophet that predicted the coming of Mohammad?

If you read my op I said it was the Church not Jesus or the disciples of Jesus that decided what books should be in the bible. They are the ones that decided what we should believe came out of the mouth of Christ. And all of that 300 hundred and some years after Jesus.

The Quran came 600 hundred years after Christ and it ALSO includes teachings about Jesus Christ. For example that he was born of a Virgin, that he spoke as an infant, he made living birds out of clay, predicted Mohammad to come after him, ect. ect…

However… is there anything that we can trace back to Jesus Himself and/or the original teachings of Christ to confirm your teachings about him?

I think you are overly fixated on obtaining written evidence. The standard during those days weren’t written evidence but 2 eyewitneses/hearers. The Gospels that you referred to, we normally say the Gospel According to …It doesn’t matter how the knowledge was transmitted, whether in written form or auditory, but knowing it came from such and such a person. These communication were collected eventually. Jesus left no written notes behind, so what? His apostles transmitted what he taught. They are bona fide eyewitnesses. John lived long enough to verify whether these gospels were written truthfully. The enemies of Christianity would ensure that these accounts stand scrutiny. If you want to kill a startup, just prove the gospels contain falsehood and that would do them in. The Romans and Jewish authorities would certainly want to put an end to Christianity.

How to prove Jesus is God? What constitute proof? Because he said it? That is insufficient for most. The proof is he lived it. You look at what he had done, his teachings his miracles, his promises, his prophecies, his resurrection and his continuing interaction with people throughout the centuries. His love. Did the Romans/Jews managed to kill off Christianity by debunking his life story? Just prove Jesus is a fraud or a madman. Just one untruth, one immorality or a mistake. I rest my case.

 

[rcwitness]

THIS TRADITION IS ONE OF ROME’S MOST UNCONVINCING TRADITION. THE APOSTLES ALL KNEW PETER WAS CALLED TO THE JEWS NOT THE GENTILES.*

I assume you are drawing from St Paul’s letter to the Galatians? I believe Paul was not saying exactly what you think. First of all, he was referring to “Jews” by faith, not merely by birth. That is to say, Peter had charge over the believing Jews (by birth) and Jews (as converted Gentiles). Secondly, Paul’s “mission” was to preach to the Gentiles, in order to bring them into the faith of the Christian Church. He wasn’t suggesting that Peter had no right to preach to the Gentiles, since we know that it was through Peter’s mouth that the Gentiles believed and received the Spirit.

Yet Paul did not have authority, over the whole Church, to make judgments to command Gentiles to be received by the Church, UNTIL Peter and the council of Apostles and elders decreed it to be. It was at this Council, that Peter expressed God’s choice to receive all men into the Church. God gave Peter a divine vision and the sign of those Gentiles who believed through his preaching. Peter, therefore, commanded them to be Baptized (received into the life of the Church).

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Originally Posted by OneBlanketBoss View Post
Dear Community,

I read all of your responses and I am thankful that some of you took the time to reply to this thread. I am just begging the question here. Do we have one singular document that we have that can be traced back to the disciples of Jesus?

For the board; The Didache and the Qumran scrolls are the most ancient documents in existence today. The Didache records what the Catholic Church practices today in the sacred Sacraments especially the Eucharist. Below is a translated copy of the Didache document.

The Didache is the First Catechism of the Catholic Church of all time.

“This is the thesis advanced in the massive recent commentary by** J.-P. Audst who concludes it was composed almost certainly in Antioch between 50 and 70.”**(3) The case must rest on the many indications of genuine primitiveness in the Didache which point to a stage in the life of the church that is still that of the NT period itself.

**The DIDACHE The full title is The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles. Some Christians thought Didache was inspired, but the church rejected it when making the final decision which books to include in the New Testament.
**
Didache contained instructions for Christian groups; and its statement of belief may be the first written catechism. It has four parts: the first is the “Two Ways, the Way of Life and the Way of Death;” the second explains how to perform rituals such as baptism, fasting, and Communion; the third covers ministry and how to deal with traveling teachers; the fourth part is a reminder that Jesus is coming again, with quotations from several New Testament passages which exhort Christians to live godly lives and prepare for “that day.”

BAPTISM
This is how you should baptize:

Having recited all these things, [the first half of the Teaching, “The Way of Life and the Way of Death”] baptize in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, in running water. If you do not have running water, then baptize in still water. The water should be cold, but if you do not have cold water, then use warm. If you have neither, then just pour water on the head three times in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Both the one who is baptized and the one who baptizes should fast beforehand, along with any others who are able, the one that is baptized being told to fast for a day or two.

PRAYER AND FASTING
Your fasting should not be like the hypocrites’. They fast on Monday and the Thursday: you should fast on the Wednesday and Friday. You should not pray like the hypocrites either, but as the Lord commanded in his Gospel:

Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name; Your kingdom come; Your will be done, as in heaven, so also on earth; Give us this day our daily bread; And forgive us our debt, as we forgive our debtors; Do not lead us into trial, but deliver us from the evil one; for yours is the power and the glory for ever and ever. Say this prayer three times a day.

THE EUCHARIST
This is how you should give thanks at the Eucharist: First, for the cup:

We give you thanks, our Father, for the holy vine of your son David which you revealed to us through your son Jesus. Yours is the glory for ever and ever.

Then for the broken bread:

We give you thanks, our Father, for the life and knowledge which you revealed to us through your son Jesus. Yours is the glory for ever and ever. As this broken bread was scattered upon the mountains and being gathered together became one, so may your Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into your kingdom For yours is the glory and the power through Jesus Christ for ever and ever.

No one should eat or drink this Eucharistic thanksgiving, unless they that have been baptized into the name of the Lord. As the Lord has said, “Do not give what is holy to the dogs.” After everyone has had enough, thank God with these words:

We give you thanks, Holy Father, for your holy name, which you have revealed to us through your son Jesus. Yours is the glory for ever and ever. Almighty Lord, you created all things for your name’s sake, and gave food and drink to people for their enjoyment, so that they would thank you, but you gave us spiritual food and drink and eternal life through your son. Above all we thank you that you are powerful Yours is the glory for ever and ever. Remember your Church, Lord. Deliver it from all evil, perfect it in your love, sanctify it and gather it together from the four winds into your kingdom which you have prepared for it. Yours is the glory for ever and ever. May grace come and may this world pass away. Hosanna to the God of David. If any man is holy, let him come; if any man is not, let him repent. Maranatha. Amen.

The Didache cont;

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

cont;

Let prophets, however, give thanksgiving as they see fit.

TEACHERS, APOSTLES AND PROPHETS
Listen to anyone who comes to teach you such things as these, but if a teacher is led astray and teaches a different doctrine that undermines what you have been told, do not hear him. However if he comes to the increase righteousness and the knowledge of the Lord, receive him as you would the Lord.

You should treat apostles and prophets as the Gospel commands. Receive every apostle that comes to you as you would the Lord. But he must not stay more than one day, or two if necessary: but if he stays three days, he is a false prophet. When an apostle leaves you, give him nothing except bread until he finds shelter. If he asks for money, he is a false prophet. Do not test or evaluate any prophet speaking in the Spirit – this is the one unforgivable sin. But not every one that speaks in the Spirit is a prophet, only those who live in the way of the Lord. Thus it is by their conduct that you can tell false prophets from true. Similarly, no prophet shall eat while he is in the Spirit; if he does, he is a false prophet. Even if a prophet teaches the truth, if he does not do what he teaches, is a false prophet. However, if a prophet that has been approved and found true, and lives out the cosmic mystery of the Church, does not teach you to do all that he does himself, you should not judge such a prophet. His judgment must be left to God, for the prophets in the past also did such things. If anyone says in the Spirit, “Give me silver”, or asks for anything else, do not listen to him. But if he tells you to give to others that are in want, let no one judge him.

Receive everyone who comes in the name of the Lord. When you have tested them you will know them, for you will be able to discern true from false. If the one who comes is a traveler, assist him, as well as you can, but he should not stay with you more than two days — or three if necessary. But if he is a craftsman who wishes to settle with you, let him work for his bread. If he has no trade, use your discretion to provide a way for him to live as a Christian among you, but not in idleness. If he will not do this, he is trading Christ for profit. Beware of such men. But all true prophets and teachers who wish to settle among you are, like workers, worthy of their food. Therefore you should always give the first fruits of the produce of the wine-press and of the threshing-floor, and of your oxen and sheep, to the prophets, for they are your chief-priests. If you do not have a prophet, give them to the poor instead. In the same way you should give the first fruits to the prophet when you make bread, or open a jar of wine or oil, and the same goes for your money and clothes and all possessions, as you see fit, in accordance with the commandment.

SUNDAY WORSHIP
On the Lord’s day, come together, break bread and give thanks, having first confessed your sins, so that your sacrifice may be pure. Anyone who has a dispute with another, must not join your assembly until they have been reconciled, so that your sacrifice may not be defiled, for this is the sacrifice spoken of by the Lord: ‘”In every place and at every time offer me a pure sacrifice; for I am a great king,” says the Lord, “and My name is wonderful among the nations.’”‘

CHURCH LEADERS
Therefore appoint for yourselves bishops and deacons worthy of the Lord, men who are meek and not lovers of money, who are true and approved, because they also perform the service of prophets and teachers to you. Do not despise them, for they are worthy of honor alongside prophets and teachers.

WRONGDOERS AND DOING RIGHT
And reprove one another, not in anger but in peace, as the Gospel tells you. If one of you does wrong to another, do not speak a word to him until he repents. Your prayers, your giving to the poor and all your deeds, should be done in accordance with the Gospel of our Lord.

THE END TIMES
Be careful how you live. Do not let your lamps be quenched, nor your loins ungirdled, but be ready, for you do not know the hour our Lord will come. Meet together frequently, pursuing what is good for your souls, for your whole time as a believer will come to nothing if you are found to be imperfect at the end time. In the last days the false prophets and corrupters shall multiply, and the sheep will be turned into wolves, and love will be turned into hate. As lawlessness increases, they will persecute and betray and hate one another. And then the deceiver of the world will appear as a Son of God, performing signs and wonders, and the earth will be delivered into his hands. He will do things more unholy than any since the beginning of the world.

All of humanity shall come to the fire of testing, and many will fall and perish. But all who endure in their faith shall be saved from the Curse. Then the signs of the truth will appear: firstly a rift in the heavens, then the sound of a trumpet, and thirdly the resurrection of the dead. But not all will rise, because, as it is said, ‘The Lord shall come, and all his saints with him’. Then the world will see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven.

 

[tgGodsway]

Hello oneblanketboss

A couple of things here. I would be interested in seeing what Mohamed understood about Jesus. There is no record of Mohamed in the life of our savior nor the Apostles. Nor were they searching for a future prophet. God Himself stepped into human form and spoke. This was the ultimate prophet found in the life of Jesus Christ. He was, and is, superior to any prophet.

Secondly, the biblical record was copied thousands of times over. This actually became a safeguard against those who wanted to defile it. If there was only one surviving record, it could easily become defiled. But many, many, copies all saying the same thing, add to our confidence about it’s accuracy.

For every false copy discovered, there were 10 copies with more consistency. For every copy missing a verse or two, there were ten copies that would include those verses. Through the process of critical comparison and an understanding of what the heresies of that day were, historians and scholars have been able to give us a very trustworthy bible.
But the Apostles knew that when the ink hit the page, it was now holy scripture. They would not wait for counsels and bishops to confirm them.

 

[rcwitness]

Secondly, the biblical record was copied thousands of times over. This actually became a safeguard against those who wanted to defile it. If there was only one surviving record, it could easily become defiled. But many, many, copies all saying the same thing, add to our confidence about it’s accuracy.

Which Bible are you referring to? The Catholic (72 book), some Protestants (66 books), the Ethiopian… ??? Which one is correct?

For every false copy discovered, there were 10 copies with more consistency. For every copy missing a verse or two, there were ten copies that would include those verses. Through the process of critical comparison and an understanding of what the heresies of that day were, historians and scholars have been able to give us a very trustworthy bible.
But the Apostles knew that when the ink hit the page, it was now holy scripture. They would not wait for counsels and bishops to confirm them.

The Apostles, themselves, did not need the NT Scriptures. They knew the Teachings directly from Jesus, and we’re appointed to Teach.

When did the Church declare the first canon of the Bible? It wasn’t historians or scholars. Historians and scholars had many different opinions. I’m not saying some of their accounts were ignored in the discernment process, but ultimately the Church did decree a Biblical Canon.

When did this happen? Who declared it? How and where did they declare it? Which Bible do you claim to be the “trustworthy Bible”?

In the end, I believe the Church relied on Tradition to declare a Canon. I believe the 72 book, Catholic Bible is trustworthy.

Another Tradition we rely on, in the Church, is Infant Baptism. We don’t know, from Scripture, that the Apostles approved or pracriced, Baptizing infants. Yet, through the Tradition of the Church, and her Teaching, we have confidence that Baptizing Infants is an Apostolic practice.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

TGGODSWAY CHIMING IN HERE: THIS THOUGHT IS LUTICRIS . THERE WERE THOUSANDS OF COPIES MADE AND CIRCULATED THROUGHOUT THE ROMAN EMPIRE TO WHICH ROME COULD NOT STOMP OUT, NOT TO MENTION THE MANY PLACES AROUND THE WORLD OUTSIDE OF ROME’S REACH…

My comment follows the OP which is focused upon the first century, while the church is still in her infancy. Your thousands of copies relates to further centuries after the Catholic Church is freed of persecution, under Imperial laws. The reason Pagan Rome could not stomp out the Christian faith. although they killed the first 30+ bishops of Rome and burned all in their possession. The Christian faith survives a triple edge sword by Pagan Rome, Jews and heretics, mainly due to Apostolic oral Sacred Tradition and biblical practices.

I’m glad you bring up “Many Places”. During which time there are only a FOUR apostolic see’s in existence. Rome where Peter presided, Antioch where Peter placed an overseer =Bishop, Alexandria where Peter placed Mark as her first Bishop, to include Jerusalem. It is from these four Patriarchal Apostolic see’s all other Church’s received their Church leaders, copies of the apostolic letters, Sacraments and divine revelations especially in each ones Liturgical Rites and languages.

It is here when the free Catholic Church= Rome, Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, is able to breathe and council and report as One body, each historical Sacred Apostolic Traditions fully intact, except, Some liturgies were found to be using excommunicated apocryphal books in their liturgies. Thus the church councils to settle the matter and canonized the bible books today unchanged.

So for your information" TGGODSWAY" The Catholic Church canonized the bible books we have today, was not for your leisure to read, when 99 percent of the populace could not read. She canonized the bible books so that all the Catholic Church members can celebrate her liturgies in One Faith, One Lord, One Baptism in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

From this biblical council, we find a new Patriarchal Church come to the surface. Constantinople, that did not suffer the persecution as much as the first four apostolic see’s. When Constantine appoints his own Bishop to this apostolic see. From this point on Constantinople begins to usurp authority from all the other apostolic see’s except Rome. The best Constantinople could do, was compare herself as an equal to the Bishop of Rome, but that’s another his-story.

After the bible is canonized by the Catholic Church and free. Now you can begin to speak about thousands of copies throughout a FREE Roman Empire, when the Catholic Church is able to freely exercise her divine right to preach, teach and administer the Sacraments of Jesus Christ, without fear of death.

THE SO-CALLED SACRED TRADITION ROMAN CATHOLICS ADHERE TO TODAY, IN MANY CASES CONTRADICT APOSTOLIC TRADITION=DOCTRINE.

I fear, you know so much about my Roman Catholic faith. I challenge you to name one Sacred Tradition that “contradict apostolic tradition”? Without confusing Church disciplines with Apostolic Sacred Tradition.

cont;

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

cont’

SACRED TRADITION HAS BEEN A TWO-THOUSAND YEAR- EVOLUTION OF EXTRA BIBLICAL REVELATION, AND ROME KNOWS IT.

I am so sorry to disagree with you. Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture cannot, and has not changed for 2000+years in the Roman Catholic Church.

Sacred Traditon does not evolve, Sacred Scripture does not evolve, you have been misinformed. What evolves from these, is the understanding from the seed and watering of the apostles and their apostolic successors, upon which God provides the growth and gift of faith, in divine revelation handed down orally and written by the Apostles.

Can you provide one Sacred Tradition that has evolved that is not recorded in all of sacred scripture?

AGAIN, TRUE SECRED TRADITION IS AN ADHEREANCE TO APOSTOLIC DOCTRINE= THIS DOCTRINE WAS AND IS, SACRED SCRIPTURE.

What do you mean “True Sacred Tradition is an Adherence to Aposotolic Doctrine”?

That’s comical, because Church Doctrine is revealed, when the Church councils, when the Apostolic Sacred Traditions and Sacred Scripture come under attack by heresies and heretic’s. How is Sacred Tradition an Adherence to Apostolic Doctrine?

The first Doctrine the Church makes is in Jerusalem, when Peter gets a vision from God to receive all Gentiles into the body of Christ =Catholic church.

There are no other divine teachings that come under attack, except the apostles themselves. For the infant Church to council and bind and loose error, from divine revelation.

Until, Jesus nature comes under attack, the Church will council again and separate the goats from the sheep by declaring the Virgin Mary Mother of God = Theotokos, and will later council to defend the baptism formula Jesus gave them in the Trinity.

EVERYONE KNOWS ROME HAS DEFINED SECRED TRADITION TO MEAN, ORAL DECREES, CHURCH COUNCILS, ECT. AS AN ON-GOING REVELATION ROOTED IN THE APOSTLES. BUT IT IS NOT. IT CONTRADICTS IN MANY PLACES.

Please name one contradiction, you will be world famous if you can disprove, some of the greatest faithful minds in the world, who counciles only to defeat heresy and heretics.
Can you name one divine revelation as ongoing that is not rooted in the Apostles?

THE MOMENT THE INK HIT THE PAGE WHEN THE APOSTLES AND TRUSTED WRITERS LIKE LUKE WROTE THEIR EPISTLES, IT BECAME HOLY SCRIPTURE. IT DID NOT WAIT FOR A ROMAN COUNCIL TO SCRUTINIZE IT, THOUGH THEY DID.

The Catholic Church used Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition to canon =MEASURING STANDARD the bible books. When the Catholic church canon the books in council, many of the books of the new testament today were quickly canonized and confirmed, because they were found unanimously found in all of the apostolic Liturgies, others were quickly cannoned=measured and removed, others took another 1500 years for Trent to finally close the canon of sacred scripture.

Someone with your knowledge of my Roman Catholic faith should know this.

THIS TRADITION IS ONE OF ROME’S MOST UNCONVINCING TRADITION. THE APOSTLES ALL KNEW PETER WAS CALLED TO THE JEWS NOT THE GENTILES.

I agree with rcwitness response to your post here.

peace be with you

 

[HarryStotle]

those names were put there many years AFTER the gospels were written.

You make it sound like there are multiple anonymous versions of the Gospels around before the names Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were appended. Do you know how many nameless versions of the Gospels exist? NONE. That’s right, there is exactly zero evidence that nameless Gospels were in existence and circulated before names were added.

To claim the names “were put… many years AFTER” onto extant copies is a fabrication. There are no nameless copies around to point to and claim, “See the name Mark was added later to this work.”

In addition, copies of all the Gospels were spread throughout the Roman Empire before the mid-second century. Are you claiming that these were all named after the fact, and correctly, by concerted effort, in thousands of churches all over the Empire?

If there were nameless Gospels, as you claim, why have none of them shown up anywhere?

Another issue…

…if the Gospels were named far after they were written, why would the names Luke and Mark be selected as the best options supporting claims of authority? Luke wasn’t all that important as a figure in the early Church. Surely some other name would have been far more authoritative. And why Mark? Why not Peter himself if the Gospel is to be understood as a first person account?

The facts that corroborate Mark and Luke actually writing the Gospels are far more compelling, authentic and revealing than any case to be made to the contrary.