Catholics, Christains, Sunni, Shia, Muslims, PLEASE READ!

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Gabriel_of_12 said:
Can you provide one Sacred Tradition that has evolved that is not recorded in all of sacred scripture?
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I think there are quite a few Traditions not recorded in Scripture.

First, there is praying to the Saints for intercession. Infant Baptism. All three dogmas concerning Mary. The Bishop of Rome is the successor of Peter.

I could think of more, no doubt.
 
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rcwitness said:
I think there are quite a few Traditions not recorded in Scripture.

First, there is praying to the Saints for intercession. Infant Baptism. All three dogmas concerning Mary. The Bishop of Rome is the successor of Peter.

I could think of more, no doubt.
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Can you provide **one Sacred Tradition that has evolved
that is not
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recorded in all of sacred scripture?**

Baptism is an Apostolic Sacred Tradition that is recorded in sacred scripture. Baptism evolved in replacing circumcision, A valid Baptism is done only once in a life time, there is no re-baptism of Christians who are validly baptized. "All households were baptized, Baptism is a promise from God “for you and all your children”, do not keep these little ones from me are only a few scripture teachings in support of infant baptism.

Intercession of Saints in not anything new and is recorded and is soaked in both the old and new testaments. Intercessory prayer is one of St. Paul’s Christian disciplinary teachings and practices.

Too many to list here, so I will give you Revelation 8:3,4 “And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel’s hand”

“Behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it” (Gen. 28.12) taking prayers up to heaven.

The dogmas of Mary, are proclaimed to bind and loose heretics, secular heresies that come against the revelations of Jesus Christ.

Mary Mother of God, proclaims the divinity of Jesus Christ in Theotokos, which comes from sacred scripture.

cont;
 
cont’
Mary Perpetual Virgin fulfills biblical recorded prophecy, and the Immaculate conception defeats Communism from becoming a permanent human ideology, these dogmas proclaims the Bride of Christ is made immaculate,in the body of Christ = Church of Jesus Christ. Much New Testament scriptures here, so I will give you an Old Testament scripture; Isaiah 66:7* Before she is in labor,
she gives birth;f
Before her pangs come upon her,
she delivers a male child.
8Who ever heard of such a thing,
or who ever saw the like?..
9Shall I bring a mother to the point of birth,
and yet not let her child be born? says the LORD.
Or shall I who bring to birth
yet close her womb? says your God.
10* Rejoice with Jerusalem and be glad because of her,
all you who love her;
Rejoice with her in her joy,

The assumption of Mary; proclaims the promise of the Church to be caught up in the sky is the theme of hope for all Christians. John, whom Jesus gives the Woman the new Eve = Mary to be his mother, who takes her into his home, Records in revelation that he see’s the New Ark of the covenant in heaven, “a Woman clothed with the Sun with a crown of 12 stars, who gives birth”. Luke records the words of the blessed Virgin Mary from her fiat when She proclaims in her biblical Magnificat account: “He has cast down the mighty from their thrones,
and has lifted up the lowly.” There is just too much information on this subject relevant to the Church Father’s writings, councils, who use scripture and sacred Tradition practiced from their respected liturgies long before the dogma of the assumption is proclaimed.

The new Testament confirms Jesus never leaves us orphans in the apostolic successors of Peter and the apostles. Orthodox, heterodox Church’s, Roman Catholic Church all follow sacred Scripture which supports Sacred Tradition of the divine office of bishop, priest and deacons all are recorded in sacred scripture.

The dogma proclaimed by the Catholic church, which is proclaimed to defend revelation and defeat heretics and heresies, that has evolved (grown in faith and understanding), from the infant Apostolic Church practiced in sacred Tradition.

Don’t trust a protestant rejection of these apostolic divine teachings, when their rendering of scripture is limited to 66 books with NO Sacred apostolic Tradition. Learn from the Sacred Liturgies and Church Fathers in regards to Mary and see how dear she was to Jesus and the apostles.

Peace be with you
 
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“OriginalGabrielof12 said:
Don’t trust a protestant rejection of these apostolic divine teachings, when their rendering of scripture is limited to 66 books with NO Sacred apostolic Tradition. Learn from the Sacred Liturgies and Church Fathers in regards to Mary and see how dear she was to Jesus and the apostles.

Peace be with you
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I am not rejecting these Traditions. I don’t believe your Scripture passages are explicit support for them. My point is only that Scripture is not explicitly Teaching these Traditions.
 
rcwitness said:
]I am not rejecting these Traditions. I don’t believe your Scripture passages are explicit support for them. My point is only that Scripture is not explicitly Teaching these Traditions.
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Exactly, that is why the full deposit of the Apostolic Catholic Faith is handed down not by Sola Scriptura. The full deposit of faith is handed down by Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium of Jesus Christ. A faith which lack’s one of these does not have the full deposit of faith handed down by Jesus and the apostles.

At Pentecost, the Jews were at a lost of what they were to do. It took Peter to inform them what the scriptures foretold and that Jesus brought them to their fulfillment, although the Jews had the scriptures memorized.

Sunday became a part of sacred Tradition, when the apostles gathered on the Eigth day in celebration of the breaking of bread (Last Supper) and prayers. The Mass is not stated explicitly in scripture. Yet the Mass celebrated on Sunday (resurrection) is not dogmatic because this Sacred Apostolic Tradition is never questioned or attacked. Except by SDA’s who come along too late and are never Catholic.

In retrospect; The Sacred Tradition encompasses all of Scripture including the seven deutero-books rejected by Protestants. The dogmas’ you listed are littered in sacred scriptures, just as the prophetic books Jesus fulfilled.But we need a teaching authority, Magisterium guided by the Holy Spirit which Jesus gave us and send to us, to teach us what is explicit in sacred sacred scripture and what is implicit from sacred scripture confirmed in sacred Tradition.

This full deposit if faith did not come by scripture alone. The full deposit of faith came to us by hearing and hearing the Word from within the Apostolic liturgies, where the full Trinity is present, as Truth is proclaimed and faith graced.

I don’t think, you can find one apostolic liturgy that is not littered, within the liturgical calendar with Theotokos. Is Theotokos or Trinity explicit in scripture. Yet, every Orthodox and Catholic in any age will cry foul, if a Christian denied Thetokos or the Trinity. The Magisterium gave us these, when the sacred Tradition came under attack.

Peace be with you
 
OneBlanketBoss said:
Whatever happened with the Original Torah and the Original Injeel?
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I don’t know about the Torah, but from Muslim scholars i’ve heard it said that the injeel is wrong because it’s been changed so many times through mistranslations. So the original injeel is lost.
 
OriginalGabrielof12 said:
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rcwitness:
]I am not rejecting these Traditions. I don’t believe your Scripture passages are explicit support for them. My point is only that Scripture is not explicitly Teaching these Traditions.
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Exactly, that is why the full deposit of the Apostolic Catholic Faith is handed down not by Sola Scriptura. The full deposit of faith is handed down by Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium of Jesus Christ. A faith which lack’s one of these does not have the full deposit of faith handed down by Jesus and the apostles.

At Pentecost, the Jews were at a lost of what they were to do. It took Peter to inform them what the scriptures foretold and that Jesus brought them to their fulfillment, although the Jews had the scriptures memorized.

Sunday became a part of sacred Tradition, when the apostles gathered on the Eigth day in celebration of the breaking of bread (Last Supper) and prayers. The Mass is not stated explicitly in scripture. Yet the Mass celebrated on Sunday (resurrection) is not dogmatic because this Sacred Apostolic Tradition is never questioned or attacked. Except by SDA’s who come along too late and are never Catholic.

In retrospect; The Sacred Tradition encompasses all of Scripture including the seven deutero-books rejected by Protestants. The dogmas’ you listed are littered in sacred scriptures, just as the prophetic books Jesus fulfilled.But we need a teaching authority, Magisterium guided by the Holy Spirit which Jesus gave us and send to us, to teach us what is explicit in sacred sacred scripture and what is implicit from sacred scripture confirmed in sacred Tradition.

This full deposit if faith did not come by scripture alone. The full deposit of faith came to us by hearing and hearing the Word from within the Apostolic liturgies, where the full Trinity is present, as Truth is proclaimed and faith graced.

I don’t think, you can find one apostolic liturgy that is not littered, within the liturgical calendar with Theotokos. Is Theotokos or Trinity explicit in scripture. Yet, every Orthodox and Catholic in any age will cry foul, if a Christian denied Thetokos or the Trinity. The Magisterium gave us these, when the sacred Tradition came under attack.

Peace be with you
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That’s a whole lot of irrelevant filler.

I am asserting that those examples I gave (Infant Baptism, Prayer to Saints, and the Dogmas regarding Mary) are NOT Taught in Scripture.

Your vague and implicit Scripture references are not examples of Scripture Teaching these Traditions.

The Revelations passage is extremely weak to be any sort of specific Teaching. It may mean the Saint’s (on Earth) prayers are carried up to heaven. It doesn’t show that prayers are carried second hand. We are Specifically Taught to pray directly to Jesus, while intercession for all men is righteous.

We can’t pretend that Scripture Teaches all Traditions. Yet, we should know that some Traditions are still from the Apostles, even though they did not Teach it through Scripture.
 
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rcwitness said:
That’s a whole lot of irrelevant filler.

I am asserting that those examples I gave (Infant Baptism, Prayer to Saints, and the Dogmas regarding Mary) are NOT Taught in Scripture.

Your vague and implicit Scripture references are not examples of Scripture Teaching these Traditions.

The Revelations passage is extremely weak to be any sort of specific Teaching. It may mean the Saint’s (on Earth) prayers are carried up to heaven. It doesn’t show that prayers are carried second hand. We are Specifically Taught to pray directly to Jesus, while intercession for all men is righteous.

We can’t pretend that Scripture Teaches all Traditions. Yet, we should know that some Traditions are still from the Apostles, even though they did not Teach it through Scripture.
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My comment summarized here; so as not to detract from the OP. Had this OP dealt directly with Sacred Tradition, I would of listed the many scriptural contents which reflect the dogmas, upon which sacred Tradition is handed down to us, orally and written.

For one example; Circumcision is given only to the male at 8 days old, whereby baptism replaced circumcision for all. Yet it is from those sacred Traditions which are not explicit from scripture, is handed down to us from apostolic Judeo/Christian practice, and what is not explicit from the sacred Tradition from practice becomes known through the Holy Spirit, which is handed down. Remember the apostles were all practicing Jews, a faith handed down orally and written.

I leave you with a summary here defining the sacred Tradition, from which Protestants have taken to make their own man made doctrines (calling them a prompting of the Holy Spirit) to pit them against the apostolic sacred Traditions. When the false arguments from Protestants are made insisting and requires scripture to explicitly state them, as you appear to be making that same argument.

Sacred Apostolic Tradition;
Literally a “handing on,” referring to the passing down of God’s revealed word. As such it has two closely related but distinct meanings. Tradition first means all of divine revelation, from the dawn of human history to the end of the apostolic age, as passed on from one generation of believers to the next, and as preserved under divine guidance by the Church established by Christ. Sacred Tradition more technically also means, within this transmitted revelation, that part of God’s revealed word which is not contained in Sacred Scripture. Referring specifically to how Christian tradition was handed on, the Second Vatican Council says: “It was done by the apostles who handed on, by the spoken word of their preaching, by the example they gave, by the institutions they established, what they themselves had received–whether from the lips of Christ, from His way of life and His works, or whether they had learned it by the prompting of the Holy Spirit” (Constitution on Divine Revelation, II, 7). (Etym. Latin traditio, a giving over, delivery, surrender; a handing down: from tradere, to give up.)

Peace be with you
 
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Just to add my two cents worth, oral history was EVERYTHING until literacy became more universal, and English was only added to the world’s vernacular a few hundred years ago.

Islam was spread by conquest. Kill people who do not accept Islam and take their stuff.

The library at Alexandria was burned because its contents conflicted with the monopoly of the Quran.

So, today we have little Islamic science or research of any kind. Not in agriculture and not in the chemistry of petroleum and not in nuclear physics and not in electricity.

Originally one could ride a horse in the shade from Tripoli to Cairo. Not anymore.

What are we to surmise from this 1400 history?
 
Let me add a little something to this conversation.
1: the dead sea scrolls help to confirm the O.T.
2: I read an article in a magazine a while back about a fragment of one of the gospels that established it’s origin prior to 50 AD.That puts it very close to the time of Jesus.
Sorry I can not remember which gospel nor the magazine.

There is one epistle I wish had been included in the bible; Barnabas.
Here’s Why.
" Thou shalt not destroy thy conceptions before they are brought forth; nor kill them after they are born."
Barnabas 14:11
 
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it is obvious that the OP believes his/her initial post makes sense.

i would just point out that if it truly made sense, the consequence is that no one knows what Jesus said or what Jesus did. if that were true and the OP’s initial post made sense, then God becoming Man in Jesus Christ means absolutely nothing. the OP is arguing that faith in Jesus is meaningless.

i reject that totally. i do not have either the time or inclination to educate the OP, even if the OP sincerely wants to learn the Truth. others here may have the time and inclination and to them i say bravo, go for it.

the clearest thing from the OP’s original post is that he/she is a non-believer. generally, it is fruitless to try to use history and reason to persuade a non-believer to believe in the Truth. even some of the people who saw for themselves that Jesus was able to raise the dead and restore them to life remained non-believers.
 
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