Catholics/Christians/Others

[GaryTaylor]

Whats your thought on Lumen Gentium 16?

But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things, and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.

I find this facinating and would like to hear everyones thoughts.

God Bless, GT

 

[gmcbroom]

Well Jesus did say ALL are welcome at His Father’s Table.

So, even if I don’t necessarily agree with Islam, (I still think it arose as a Christian heresy that went amok) it’s not my place to deny them salvation.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I hear you. I kinda want to see what everyones thinking is here and not really sway the conversation one way or the other.

 

[meltzerboy]

Whats your thought on Lumen Gentium 16?

But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things, and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.

I find this facinating and would like to hear everyones thoughts.

God Bless, GT

As a Jew, I agree with the notion that all who acknowledge the Creator fit into the plan of salvation. Judaism goes a little further, however, in enabling atheists to be saved as well based on their being righteous and doing good deeds. My question is why does Lumen Gentium single out Islam and not mention Judaism. Or does it?

 

[LemonAndLime]

Well Jesus did say ALL are welcome at His Father’s Table.

So, even if I don’t necessarily agree with Islam, (I still think it arose as a Christian heresy that went amok) it’s not my place to deny them salvation.

It wouldn’t be a Christian heresy at all, as the whole basis of their religion is that Jesus was not the true prophet but Muhammed was.

However, it’s one of the Abrahamic religions, and therefore theoretically we all worship the same God - Yahweh. It’s interesting to think that the core reason which lead to the differences between Jews, Muslims and Christians is the belief about who the true prophet was/will be. I know it’s not as simple as that of course. Judaism is like a father to Christians and they are more similar than Islam. I suppose Islam is more like a cousin. A very distant cousin.

It’s more than reasonable to assume that we may be on different routes, but all heading towards the same goal.

 

[Barbkw]

scborromeo.org/mobileccc/p123a9p3.htm#839

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329

840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330

842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:

All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331

843 **The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions **that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:

Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.334

325 LG 16.
326 Cf. NA 4.
327 Roman Missal, Good Friday 13:General Intercessions,VI.
328 Rom 9:4-5.
329 Rom 11:29.
330 LG 16; cf. NA 3.
331 NA 1.
332 LG 16; cf. NA 2; EN 53.
333 LG 16; cf. Rom 1:21, 25.
334 St. Augustine, Serm. 96,7,9L 38,588; St. Ambrose, De virg. 18 118L 16,297B; cf. already 1 Pet 3:20-21.

 

[dzheremi]

Really, this again?

Well, okay…let’s have a look…

But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator.

In so far as God has offered His salvation to everyone, yes.

In the first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans,

A million times no. The “Mohammedans” might win first place in some sort of Christianity-butchering heresy contest, but outside of that, it is wildly inappropriate to declare them “first” in anything. They’re not even first in error, as the Jews rejected Christ before they did.

who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham,

I can profess to be the king of England, but I doubt anyone would be showing up to my coronation.

along with us adore the one and merciful God,

Boo! Hiss! Get off the stage!

who on the last day will judge mankind.

You mean like how Muhammad’s best buddy 'Isa (the “Jesus” figure of Islam) will return to earth to kill pigs and smash crosses and send Christians straight to hell for worshiping him? Or do you think it means the real judgment that will actually happen?

Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things, and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.

Yes, yes, although I’d be very careful with that last clause lest it be misinterpreted as preaching some sort of universal salvation when we also know that no one can know who will be saved and who will not be. I rather prefer this wording, from the conclusion of every Coptic prayer hour, which expresses similar hope without potential confusion:

“…] Christ our God, the good, the long-suffering, the abundant in mercy, and the great in compassion, who loves the righteous and has mercy on the sinners of whom I am chief, who does not wish the death of the sinner but rather that he returns and lives, who calls all to the salvation for the promise of the good things to come.”

You will note that all are called, but it is left open as to whether or not they will respond, as in life. The Muslims, or at least those living and worshiping within the Islamic creed and the religion built around it, have not not responded – they have openly rejected the means of salvation, identifying it with the highest of blasphemies. Just as those who blaspheme against the Holy Spirit reject the means by which their sins may be forgiven (as such, this is the only “unforgivable sin”), it is more than just a stretch to say that the Muslims can in this context somehow be counted among the worshipers of the true God, to be saved as though they must not also assent. No, Muslims have free will too, and they are using it to NOT worship God. This document is wrong, and very shaky theologically.

 

[GaryTaylor]

As a Jew, I agree with the notion that all who acknowledge the Creator fit into the plan of salvation. Judaism goes a little further, however, in enabling atheists to be saved as well based on their being righteous and doing good deeds. My question is why does Lumen Gentium single out Islam and not mention Judaism. Or does it?

As I mentioned I don’t want to sway the thinking, I really want hear truths of thought. But in the case of Judaism, I believe your 100% correct. And I don’t know why this isn’t mentioned.

But as a follower of Judaism. how do you feel about the salvation of Islam or of Islam being of the following of the God of Abraham?

 

[confusedius]

My question is why does Lumen Gentium single out Islam and not mention Judaism. Or does it?

“In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.”

 

[meltzerboy]

As I mentioned I don’t want to sway the thinking, I really want hear truths of thought. But in the case of Judaism, I believe your 100% correct. And I don’t know why this isn’t mentioned.

But as a follower of Judaism. how do you feel about the salvation of Islam or of Islam being of the following of the God of Abraham?

In some ways, Torah Judaism views Islam as closer to its beliefs than Christianity. From the Jewish perspective, Islam is more strictly monotheistic than Christianity since Islam does not accept the divinity of either Jesus or the Holy Spirit: that is, there is no Trinity. Leaving this thorny issue aside, however, Judaism has no problem with the salvation of either Christians or Muslims and both are recognized as descendants of Abraham. For both, there are only a handful of required commandments to be fulfilled to considered among the righteous, while Jews are expected to fulfill 613 although many cannot be fulfilled in the modern world but remain on the books for the future! The required commandments of non-Jews involve basically the specific teaching of the Torah as well as of Jesus: “Love G-d” and “Love thy neighbor as thyself.” (Some Jews would argue that even the 613 commandments all boil down to that as well.)

 

[GaryTaylor]

In some ways, Torah Judaism views Islam as closer to its beliefs than Christianity. From the Jewish perspective, Islam is more strictly monotheistic than Christianity since Islam does not accept the divinity of either Jesus or the Holy Spirit: that is, there is no Trinity. Leaving this thorny issue aside, however, Judaism has no problem with the salvation of either Christians or Muslims and both are recognized as descendants of Abraham. For both, there are only a handful of required commandments to be fulfilled to considered among the righteous, while Jews are expected to fulfill 613 although many cannot be fulfilled in the modern world but remain on the books for the future! The required commandments of non-Jews involve basically the specific teaching of the Torah as well as of Jesus: “Love G-d” and “Love thy neighbor as thyself.” (Some Jews would argue that even the 613 commandments all boil down to that as well.)

Interesting, I view Islam differently. Islam needs to clarify two questions in regards to dialogue. And thats its relation to violence and it relation to reason.

When we talk interreligious dialogue, then what is tolerance? How is Truth and Tolerance related? Does lack of tolerance include the right to change the religion and define it as you go along playing counterweight to the Western world?

Islams argument is once one comes to the Truth it can no longer go back? Does that now mean lets wipe Israel off the map and consider the US Babylon and all Christianity the enemy to kill?

Islam is lived and taught very differently in different areas. Today we are seeing something very different emerge. Time will tell my friend, time will tell. All faiths once came together to stop the Ottoman empire from turning Europe into a colony? So I’m not ready to role out the red carpet for Islam. I’m willing to talk, but I see Christians martyred by the truckload. And this century started out worst that last.

Of course their are Muslims who are civil and read the Quran very differently. But what Islam will emerge victorious? Islam has to define itself to a large degree. I see a very evil side called in the name of the God of Abraham. Which the calling is to kill Jews and Chistians and covert the world.

 

[meltzerboy]

scborromeo.org/mobileccc/p123a9p3.htm#839

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

Thank you for this reference.

 

[Bwtby]

Really, this again?

Well, okay…let’s have a look…

In so far as God has offered His salvation to everyone, yes.

A million times no. The “Mohammedans” might win first place in some sort of Christianity-butchering heresy contest, but outside of that, it is wildly inappropriate to declare them “first” in anything. They’re not even first in error, as the Jews rejected Christ before they did.



I can profess to be the king of England, but I doubt anyone would be showing up to my coronation.

Boo! Hiss! Get off the stage!

You mean like how Muhammad’s best buddy 'Isa (the “Jesus” figure of Islam) will return to earth to kill pigs and smash crosses and send Christians straight to hell for worshiping him? Or do you think it means the real judgment that will actually happen?

Yes, yes, although I’d be very careful with that last clause lest it be misinterpreted as preaching some sort of universal salvation when we also know that no one can know who will be saved and who will not be. I rather prefer this wording, from the conclusion of every Coptic prayer hour, which expresses similar hope without potential confusion:

“…] Christ our God, the good, the long-suffering, the abundant in mercy, and the great in compassion, who loves the righteous and has mercy on the sinners of whom I am chief, who does not wish the death of the sinner but rather that he returns and lives, who calls all to the salvation for the promise of the good things to come.”

You will note that all are called, but it is left open as to whether or not they will respond, as in life. The Muslims, or at least those living and worshiping within the Islamic creed and the religion built around it, have not not responded – they have openly rejected the means of salvation, identifying it with the highest of blasphemies. Just as those who blaspheme against the Holy Spirit reject the means by which their sins may be forgiven (as such, this is the only “unforgivable sin”), it is more than just a stretch to say that the Muslims can in this context somehow be counted among the worshipers of the true God, to be saved as though they must not also assent. No, Muslims have free will too, and they are using it to NOT worship God. This document is wrong, and very shaky theologically.

Do you get all your daily news from Fox?

 

[Bwtby]

I believe the only ones that may have a hard time getting the salvation they need, are the Atheists. Those who are 100% certain there is no ‘mystery man with a long white beard’ sitting in the clouds.

 

[meltzerboy]

Interesting, I view Islam differently. Islam needs to clarify two questions in regards to dialogue. And thats its relation to violence and it relation to reason.

When we talk interreligious dialogue, then what is tolerance? How is Truth and Tolerannce related? Does lack of tolerance include the right to change the religion and define it as you go along playing counterweight to the Western world?

Islams argument is once one comes to the Truth it can no longer go back? Does that now mean lets wipe Israel off the map and consider the US Babylon and all Christianity the enemy to kill?

Islam is lived and taught very differently in different areas. Today we are seeing something very different energe. Time will tell my friend, time will tell. All afiths once came together to stop the Ottoman empire from turning Europe into a colony? So I’m not ready to role out the red caropet for Islam. I’m willing to talk, but I see Christians martyred by the truckload. And this century started out worst that last.

Of course the are Muslims who are civil and read the Quran very differently. But what Islam will emerge victorius? Islam has to define itself to a large degree. .

Yes, there is for sure a political and cultural war going on now between fundamental Arab Muslims vs. Arab and American Christians, Israeli and American Jews, and moderate Arab and American Muslims. This is fueled by ancient religious hatred and political, economic strife in Arab countries. But what I always hear from moderate Muslim Americans is that the jihad mentality is a total corruption of the teachings of the Quran, and I believe them. This does not change the fact that those fundamentalists in power control governmental policies, but even that seems to be changing as we speak–but the big question is changing toward what? All of this political and ideological conflict, however, does not change Judaism’s scriptural teaching that a righteous Muslim from an Arab (or any other) country can achieve salvation.

 

[meltzerboy]

“In the first place we must recall the people to whom the testament and the promises were given and from whom Christ was born according to the flesh.(125) On account of their fathers this people remains most dear to God, for God does not repent of the gifts He makes nor of the calls He issues.”

Thank you for this information.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Yes, there is for sure a political and cultural war going on now between fundamental Arab Muslims vs. Arab and American Christians, Israeli and American Jews, and moderate Arab and American Muslims. This is fueled by ancient religious hatred and political, economic strife in Arab countries. But what I always hear from moderate Muslim Americans is that the jihad mentality is a total corruption of the teachings of the Quran, and I believe them. This does not change the fact that those fundamentalists in power control governmental policies, but even that seems to be changing as we speak–but the big question is changing toward what? All of this political and ideological conflict, however, does not change Judaism’s scriptural teaching that a righteous Muslim from an Arab (or any other) country can achieve salvation.

My friend, this is a “very recent” movement by US Muslims. Until the late 90’s they considered the White Man the Blue Eyed Devil. And recuited from the State Prison system and still does. And I worked in that system with Muslims on a Theraputic level for years.

So because of a change of heart we should now take all Islam at face value? You earn respect in this world. Israel hasn’t gone around butching people for centurys. They earned their respect. Christianity isn’t the US Military. The Crusades from the Dark Ages are a sore spot. Nonetheless Christianity earned its respect also. Islam must earn its respect through Peace not Violence. Not by thinking it can Bully the middle east, and not because a few muslim scholars interpret the Quran in a peaceful manner. Which rightfully it should be.

Did you watch Good Morning America last week on Islam? Their are problems and they are being taken to court by Homeland Security for the promotion of violence through the Imams:shrug: This is a on-going process and through learned behavior I am very skeptical about Islam, I’m sorry if my point of view is offensive to anyone. We are what we learn and are taught.

But as I mention I do believe the conversation lines need remain open. But Islam must come to terms with itself to a large degree. The “we are a peaceful religion” while the death toll count rise’s doesn’t wash with me. And in history I see nothing but violence. So when did Islam change this decade? Did it change because a few college students said so? Islam has no choice but to be peaceful in the US they are not the majority. Go visit any US Prison where they are the majority and see what it looks like? Very different. Are all muslims criminals? of course not, but its been recruiting from the US prison system since the 1960’s.

God Bless, Gary

 

[Bwtby]

^ Islam and The Nation of Islam are two complete different things there man.

 

[meltzerboy]

My friend, this is a “very recent” movement by US Muslims. Until the late 90’s they considered the White Man the Blue Eyed Devil. And recuited from the State Prison system and still does. And I worked in that system with Muslims on a Theraputic level for years.

So because of a change of heart we should now take all Islam at face value? You earn respect in this world. Israel hasn’t gone around butching people for centurys. They earned their respect. Christianity isn’t the US Military. The Crusades from the Dark Ages are a sore spot. Nonetheless Christianity earned its respect also. Islam must earn its respect through Peace not Violence. Not by thinking it can Bully the middle east, and not because a few muslim scholars interpret the Quran in a peaceful manner. Which rightfully it should be.

Did you watch Good Morning America last week on Islam? Their are problems and they are being taken to court by Homeland Security for the promotion of violence through the Imams:shrug: This is a on-going process and through learned behavior I am very skeptical about Islam, I’m sorry if my point of view is offensive to anyone. We are what we learn and are taught.

But as I mention I do believe the conversation lines need remain open. But Islam must come to terms with itself to a large degree. The “we are a peaceful religion” while the death toll count rise’s doesn’t wash with me. And in history I see nothing but violence. So when did Islam change this decade? Did it change because a few college students said so? Islam has no choice but to be peaceful in the US they are not the majority. Go visit any US Prison where they are the majority and see what it looks like? Very different. Are all muslims criminals? of course not, but its been recruiting from the US prison system since the 1960’s.

God Bless, Gary

I see the conversation is turning from religion to politics, not that the two have not been intertwined for millennia. You are the one who mentioned Christianity and the Crusades, which happened a very long time ago. I am very reluctant to pursue this line of discussion involving Christianity for obvious reasons, but as long as you brought it up in passing, need I remind you of the relation between Christianity and antisemitism in more recent periods of history, well past the Crusades. Persecution of Jews by Christians has been no isolated incidence. Historians have filled volumes on this topic! On a more positive note, I would also like to remind you that once upon a time in Spain there was a Golden Age of brotherhood between Christians, Muslims, and Jews for quite a long period of time. This is no recent phenomenon. In addition, I believe you are judging Muslims (not all, of course, but certainly many according to your own words) on the basis of fundamentalists. There are fundamentalists (talking politically now, not necessarily in regard to religion) among Christians and Jews. Should we judge most Christians and Jews according to these people as well? Finally, what should African Americans and Native Americans think about Caucasian Americans. Not exactly a pretty picture either. Should White Americans also be thought of as bloodthirsty people based on their treatment of these groups and several others as well? You say essentially that actions speak louder than words and I agree with that. However, let us also remember not to paint a whole group of people on the basis of the actions of fanatics; if we do, then it is not only the Muslims who can be found guilty.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Persecution of Jews by Christians has been no isolated incidence.

My experience with people of different racial, social and ethnic backgrounds is vast. As a young adult growing up, I attended college on an athletic scholarship. So the idea of race, ethinic, social and physical limitations pretty much went out the window automatically. Which I never had any issue with to begin with. Otherwise it would have been impossible to truly not view all others as brothers in order to not just win, but survive Gladiator School in the Big Twelve.

LIfe as I mentioned above in career and practical experience hasn’t changed my view either. Though I see Islam pretty much clearer than most I do believe. I spend years working among those who follow the Islamic faith. And have very close friends who are Islamic. But they grew in the same violence I did and have zero tolerance for oppression of the weak. We carried those weak links in school because it quickly became apparent the chain was only as strong as the weakest link.

As far as Islam and Christianity there are two things we do have in common. We both defend major religious values, which equates to Faith in God and obedience in God. So as time passed my work brought me back to my Faith. My own error in religion became obvious to myself due to Islamic friends. Its a Blessing to have made it back. I know countless souls who didn’t.

Nonetheless today Islam is lived completely different in different parts of the world. We cannot dissolve ourselves into one another we must understand each other and co-exist in a world which is based on humanity and respect for life and peace.

In the Sub-Saharan Africa there has been a long tradition of good and tolerant coexistence between Islam and Christianity. The ancient custom is to celebrate each others holidays. Christianity has been there to help Israel since WW-II at least and the converstion with Pope JP-II only helped the situation. How is Islam helping Israel?

Christainity is what supported Dr King through the Civil rights movments in the 60’s The Catholic News out of NYC is what escalated the entire movement with Thomas Merton adding great (name removed by moderator)ut. Its quickly forgotten how and who started that movement. And in back of it is Catholic Priests and Sisters.

Nonetheless there are areas of Islam which need to be defined in order to overcome skeptical philosophy and proceed. As I mentioned above I’m aware of exactly how, where and why Islam evolved in the US since 58. I lived it and witnessed it. The last deacde has bought promise. Yet there is still resaon for concern as I mentioned above. Good and Radical Islam become interrelated and really the Good Islamic brother’s and sister’s suffer as it result. Which was obvious last week on the news. Whats the destiny for those of Islam who refuse to follow a terrorist way of life? Witness protection in the US? Obviously issues remain. Radical Islam will kill thsoe good souls for going to the government and doing the right, just thing for humanity.

Where Islam has monocultural dominance, where its traditions and its culture and political identity are uncontested, it views itself in the role of the counterweight to the Western World, as its defender, you might say of religion against atheism and secularism. Truth can then be narrowed to the point of intolerance, then making co-existence with Christians and Israel very difficult.

Islamics who are capible of open dialogue, I believe its important to remain in contact with to give a change of mentality a chance to happen, and yes even where Islam still couple’s a claim of truth to violence. And can assure you my Orthodox brother’s disagree with me from the bottom of their hearts. I believe we must keep hope alive regarless of what the Truth is and how bad it looks. And its pretty bleak at the moment.

Today there is no violence coming from Christianity, its a fulite attempt to associate the past with today, the modern world of Christainity has evolved. The errors in the past are real and ammends have been made and life and the world has moved on. Though many refuse to move on and live with a chip on theri shoulder. We could help and pray for them, “if” they desire to have a hand reached out to them.

Slavery today is only due to Islam and its world rate is higher now than anytime in History. Christianity has no political agenda. Islam is lived as a political religion. How you can seperate the two, I fail to see? Let alone clearly identifying Islam in all areas of the world is an obstacle. Christian’s martyred is at higher rate this century already than last. While I don’t have racial or ethnic issues I find violence a tool of the ignorant. I grew up in it and was compelled to live it to achieve an BS degree.

My friend I have little concern what your skin color is, where you where born, or how you speak. I’m postive you share the same fears, shed the same tears and die in so many years. My concern is world peace and how we plan on bringing that about? And I fail to see how Islam is doing this? maybe you can educate me here?

What your opinion on the Iran- Israel issue? I’m not all that up on it, Its doesn’t look good to me to through? Since this is your faith I’d be interested in hearing that opinion.

Spain? The era of Muslim rule before 1055 is generally considered a “Golden Age” for the Jews as Jewish intellectual and spiritual life flourished in Spain. Only in the northern fringes of the peninsula did Christians remain under Christian rule. This ended in 1492 then Christainity flourished and has remained the major religion of the country.

God Bless, Gary