Catholics disobey the first two commandments

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GerardPaul

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Why does a “Bible Only” Calvary Chaple member keep bringing up how Catholics hide and disobey the first two commandments as THEY list them. Implying that changing the words and making images is a great sin and shows that we are not true Christians. He said “it’s symple the words in Ex. 20 speek for them self”. I have given him the very good answers found at Catholic Answers but just will not accept them.

Jeffrey
 
Why does a “Bible Only” Calvary Chaple member keep bringing up how Catholics hide and disobey the first two commandments as THEY list them. Implying that changing the words and making images is a great sin and shows that we are not true Christians. He said “it’s symple the words in Ex. 20 speek for them self”. I have given him the very good answers found at Catholic Answers but just will not accept them.

Jeffrey
It’s hard to say without knowing exactly what his objections are or exactly what you told him.
 
Some people will never “get it”. And it is a waste of time arguing when you can help others and be fruitful in your conversations and help others learn. My advice is to move on. :o
 
A better question would be why to Protestans combine the last two commandments, treating ones wife as just another possession.
 
1**.I am the Lord, your God. You shall have no other gods besides Me. **
**2. You shall not take the name of the Lord, your God, in vain. **

How do we break these or hide them??
 
Pax vobiscum!

I’ve usually heard that we only hide and disobey the Second Commandment, not both the First and Second. This is interesting, considering we have the same First Commandment as the Protestants, except that ours is longer than theirs. I suppose you could accuse them of trying to hide the part about “thou shalt have no other gods besides me”.

In Christ,
Rand
 
So show him Exodus 20 in a Catholic bible. The words are all there. What is this fetish about the way the scripture is condensed into a list? The scripture is still in the bible!

Speaking of words that speak for themselves, does he avoid any likeness of any thing on the earth or under the earth or in the sea? Considering that covers just about any image of anything, I strongly doubt it.
 
1**.I am the Lord, your God. You shall have no other gods besides Me. **
**2. You shall not take the name of the Lord, your God, in vain. **

How do we break these or hide them??
I suppose he would be saying the Second Commandment is the prohibition of images. Therefore you kind of “hid” this, when you stated the First Commandment. In full, the First Commandment is:
I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them.3It is written: "You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve."4
 
I have given him the very good answers found at Catholic Answers but just will not accept them.

Jeffrey
When you discuss with someone who does not open his heart and mind, all you need to do is to pray for them. You don’t have to convince them - praying is very powerful.
 
GerardPaul, this is fairly simple.

The bottom line is this, one can listen to the erroneous traditions and translations of men or listen to the traditions of Christ. Refer to 2 Thess 2:15, 2 Tim 2:2, 2 Tim 1:13, and 1 Thess 2:13. You see the written Word is inerrant, yes, but it is the reader-no matter how sincere- which creates error. Thus, this leads to mis-interpretation of scripture and thus requires interpretation/teachings of Christ provided to and entrusted to faithful men, the apostles and their succesors, who have been “able to teach others also” for nearly 2000 years now. A prime biblical example of this is found in Acts 8:26-35, where the Eunuch requires the divine interpretation provided by ones whom have “heard” (oral tradition) the word of God through Philip, "30Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked. 31"How can I," he said, “unless someone explains it to me?” So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. " (oral teaching tradition, established the year Christ founded his Church, not any time thereafter, much less 1521 AD).

How do you suspect a mis-interpretation- when your interpretation leads to a false contradiction of scripture. You see, if he takes the 1st commandment for what it is worth, it means God alone is number one, true. But that does not mean that we reject those that are one WITH God in heaven or in faith here on earth. Otherwise, then that would contradict Luke 10:16 “He who listens to you (those with God) listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

Similarly, regarding the 2nd commandment, if God intended for no image to be formed, even if intended as a representation to glorify him, then he is obviously contradicting himself just 5 chapters ahead. In Exodus 25, He commands graven a images in the form of a heavenly cherubim (angels!) to be made upon the Ark of the Covenant, “**And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover…”(**Ex 25:18). Again, the issue is, are people placing these images above God or are they using it as something which glorifies God; something that reminds us of the power of God above. Just as a “moving” image, a motion picture (/“image”), as “The Passion of Christ” which reminds us, and places us spiritually at calvary allowing us to appreciate the true sacrifice at the Cross. Thus, the key question is: is the image pointing worship toward God (Catholic worship OF God), or is worship directed at the image (the actual condemnable act and interpretation of the 2nd commandment).

If a person can not understand this difference or tolerate ANY image then he should not watch TV, much less, a motion picture/“image” of Christ.

The person, ultimately, must ask him/herself, where are they receiving these contradictory signals. Are they biblical teachings of Christ which have been provided by Apostles, presbyters, and deacons- such as Philip in Acts 8- or have they received them from their own private interpretations or other men’s interpretations, “traditions” of men, created well after the establishment of “the Church”? (Mt 16:17-19; Mt 18:17-18).
 
Why does a “Bible Only” Calvary Chaple member keep bringing up how Catholics hide and disobey the first two commandments as THEY list them. Implying that changing the words and making images is a great sin and shows that we are not true Christians. He said “it’s symple the words in Ex. 20 speek for them self”. I have given him the very good answers found at Catholic Answers but just will not accept them.

Jeffrey
Does this person have photographs, or dvd’s? Does it attend museums and look at artwork? As someone else pointed out does he view television? IF so he is looking at images.

Has he ever drawn a picture or allowed his child to do so? Has he ever drawn up a map for someone? Well, that means he is producing images.
 
1**.I am the Lord, your God. You shall have no other gods besides Me. **
**2. You shall not take the name of the Lord, your God, in vain. **
It’s not like we deify the Bible or deny Christ’s substantial presence in the Holy Eucharist. :mad:
 
what is with the :mad: ???
Oh my, I’m sorry! I wasn’t replying to you, but I was quoting the commandments. The sarcasm and angry face were directed at those who critisize us in this silly way. 😛
 
I suppose he would be saying the Second Commandment is the prohibition of images. Therefore you kind of “hid” this, when you stated the First Commandment. In full, the First Commandment is:I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them.3It is written: "You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve."4
We do not hide anything, Catholics hold the Ten Commandments in the Christian tradition of understanding. It was only until recently that they were reordered to emphasize images as many Protestants were against using images and they pointed to this part of the Ten Commandments to justify this rejection.
Which would only be consistant if every image was to be abolished, but of course they weren’t looking for consistancy just reason to back up their belief system.

So Catholics did not hide anything, they just understand the Commandments logically and have a consistant faith system. That is why I can have a picture in my wallet of my wife and not contradict my faith system, whereas any Protestant who insists on ordering the Commandments in the example have an inconsistant belief system that is ignored just out of bigotry and not out of consistancy.
Or else it would be explained that images are ok and we can have images of that which we love, such as Jesus and our family.

(also Catholics don’t see wife’s as possessions, but respect them as persons so they are respected that way in our belief system)

In Christ
Scylla
 
Some people will never “get it”. And it is a waste of time arguing when you can help others and be fruitful in your conversations and help others learn. My advice is to move on. :o
Hi,

I agree:thumbsup:
 
Some people will never “get it”. And it is a waste of time arguing when you can help others and be fruitful in your conversations and help others learn. My advice is to move on. :o
I completely disagree, as it contradicts scripture- “Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect”.

You see our sole responsibility is to “give the reason for the hope that you have”. We just plant the seed, and let the Holy Spirit do all the rest. However, we are not to be discouraged by their disbelief as most humans will never admit to being convinced in some way (due to pride), but in their heart they can be evangelized in truth. We must have patience and simply allow the Spirit to work in them which most of the time takes YEARS, not weeks or months.
 
I suppose he would be saying the Second Commandment is the prohibition of images. Therefore you kind of “hid” this, when you stated the First Commandment. In full, the First Commandment is:I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. ; .3It is written:
Ok, so here’s the breakdown:

  1. *]You shall have no other gods before me.
    *]You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth
    *]you shall not bow down to them or serve them
    *]"You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve."4
    OK so the friend of the OP wants to be literal? So which one are we alledgedly guilty of? I can only imagine items 2 and 3 being legitimate accusations and as it turns out they are misguided accusations. What does Item 2 say? It says
    that I cant MAKE images of things FOR MYSELF. I dont see how that applies to Catholics. I never make statues or pictures or images in the first place - I might buy one from someone else, but I dont make them for myself. As far as #3 goes - no one is bowing down and serving statues or relics or whatever.

    Phil
 
[/INDENT]
Ok, so here’s the breakdown:

  1. *]You shall have no other gods before me.
    *]You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth
    *]you shall not bow down to them or serve them
    *]"You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve."4
    OK so the friend of the OP wants to be literal? So which one are we alledgedly guilty of? I can only imagine items 2 and 3 being legitimate accusations and as it turns out they are misguided accusations. What does Item 2 say? It says
    that I cant MAKE images of things FOR MYSELF. I dont see how that applies to Catholics. I never make statues or pictures or images in the first place - I might buy one from someone else, but I dont make them for myself. As far as #3 goes - no one is bowing down and serving statues or relics or whatever.

    Phil

  1. Um, are you disagreeing with me?
 
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