Catholics Embracing Protestants

[ThundersnowIV]

However we shouldnt become indifeerent or presume that someone outside the Church is saved.

Every Christian is a part of the Church. Some in less perfect communion than others.

 

[rcwitness]

If you are speaking of the historical Jesus, he was Jewish. I don’t believe they had a classification for heresy.

Galatians 5:20 mentions it.

 

[MichaelP3]

No, but please get this. An anathema is not the equivalent of being damned. As far as I know, the CC has never stated anyone was going to hell. What the anathema is basically saying you are not in communion with us. Again, I can only speak to the way it is now. In the 1500 and 1600’s these things were a little more “intense”

A little more intense indeed and although I understand your point. My question would be… is there any "official " statement correcting this or at least clarifying this?

I have seen numerous positions trying to spin this into something else. But for a denomination who always ask for an "official " document or clarification… point being something official would be appreciated. Otherwise it is pretty much the same thing according to Catholicism.

 

[reggieM]

A little more intense indeed and although I understand your point. My question would be… is there any "official " statement correcting this or at least clarifying this?

I have seen numerous positions trying to spin this into something else. But for a denomination who always ask for an "official " document or clarification… point being something official would be appreciated. Otherwise it is pretty much the same thing according to Catholicism.

An anathema just means it is a false teaching and not accepted.
Of course, you already know that Catholics and Protestants disagree on certain teachings. So those disagreements remain in many ways.
However, Catholics and Lutherans came to an agreement on the interpretation of Justification by Faith – and that was done by clarifying a misunderstanding.

 

[Wannano]

An anathema just means it is a false teaching and not accepted.

Wish that would be the case but nothing I can find backs that up.

 

[Wannano]

No, but please get this. An anathema is not the equivalent of being damned. As far as I know, the CC has never stated anyone was going to hell. What the anathema is basically saying you are not in communion with us. Again, I can only speak to the way it is now. In the 1500 and 1600’s these things were a little more “intense”

I would love to see a modern Catholic definition that substantiates what you are saying. All I can find is “accursed”…“given over to Satan”…loss of salvation etc.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Wish that would be the case but nothing I can find backs that up.

You can find nothing that backs it up because such an assertion is not true.

We have much to look back upon across the centuries with the very deepest of regret and even with disgust.

 

[rcwitness]

You can find nothing that backs it up because such an assertion is not true.

We have much to look back upon across the centuries with the very deepest of regret and even with disgust.

Is there a Teaching from Trent you find “disgusting”?

 

[Wannano]

You can find nothing that backs it up because such an assertion is not true.

We have much to look back upon across the centuries with the very deepest of regret and even with disgust.

Father Ruggero, I am struggling with words to express my sentiments in regard to your statement. Hearing this from a member of the Catholic clergy is extremely humbling. I have no feeling of triumphalism or victory. I feel the pain you are expressing and somehow know you recognized mine. I feel I have been led beside still waters this evening. Thank you so much!

 

[rcwitness]

Father Ruggero, I am struggling with words to express my sentiments in regard to your statement. Hearing this from a member of the Catholic clergy is extremely humbling. I have no feeling of triumphalism or victory. I feel the pain you are expressing and somehow know you recognized mine. I feel I have been led beside still waters this evening. Thank you so much!

Are you under the impression Fr. Don is repulsed by Teachings from the council of Trent?

I’m trying to understand what is being suggested here.

 

[MichaelP3]

You can find nothing that backs it up because such an assertion is not true.

We have much to look back upon across the centuries with the very deepest of regret and even with disgust.

Good day

I have come to respect you and your posts a lot. But I don’t want to assume what you are saying here. Could you please clarify

 

[MichaelP3]

An anathema just means it is a false teaching and not accepted.
Of course, you already know that Catholics and Protestants disagree on certain teachings. So those disagreements remain in many ways.
However, Catholics and Lutherans came to an agreement on the interpretation of Justification by Faith – and that was done by clarifying a misunderstanding.

Hi reggieM. When I saw you replied I smiled and can’t even try to be mean

I get your point but as Wanano pointed out it isn’t really the definition. Why we are asking for an offiial clarification. And it has also been pointed out not to exist. Personally I have little respect for the language at Trent. The current language is a lot better and I would give that to Catholicism. Yet it is stll proclaimed as being just as true. Saying it is due to the day and age it was promulgated can just help so much. Saying it is the people can only go that far. This is an institution that declares it cannot make an error when talking about faith and morals.

I am not saying you are “wrong”. Just to understand that this doesn’t make sense in its totality.

Regards

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Father Ruggero, I am struggling with words to express my sentiments in regard to your statement. Hearing this from a member of the Catholic clergy is extremely humbling. I have no feeling of triumphalism or victory. I feel the pain you are expressing and somehow know you recognized mine. I feel I have been led beside still waters this evening. Thank you so much!

You are most welcome

I remember last year when Pope Francis made the first visit by a Pope to a Waldensian church, when he was in Turin. The history between Catholicism and the Waldensians has particularly gruesome chapters. The focal point of his address was

On the part of the Catholic Church, I ask your forgiveness, I ask it for the non-Christian and even inhuman attitudes and behaviour that we have showed you /…/ In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, forgive us!

For those who had any involvement in the dialogue that had been on-going over the years, there would be agreement that the condemned behaviour was not being overstated; it was, indeed, inhuman…and breathtakingly so. Ramifications ensued that continue to be felt in a way that subsequent generations have to accept the woundedness that has endured

The words and deeds of Pope Francis are but a continuation of Pope Benedict and Pope Saint John Paul II as well as Blessed Pope Paul VI and Pope Saint John XXIII, who have brought the Church into a new era with a new mindset of looking at the Church’s past and taking stock of it…as well as how we view other persons and their actions in new lights. That no longer happens along purely confessional lines

As the Pope admitted in 1984 in Geneva

"[T]he Catholic conviction that in the ministry of the bishop of Rome she has preserved in fidelity to the Apostolic Tradition and faith of the Fathers, the visible sign and guarantor of unity constitutes a difficulty for most other Christians, whose memory is marked by certain painful recollections.” He then added, “As far as we are responsible for these, I join with my predecessor Paul VI in asking forgiveness”

Blessed Pope Paul VI, in his opening speech at the second session of Vatican II, asked pardon from God and the divided brethren of the East. This gesture of the pope found expression in the Council itself, above all in the Decree on Ecumenism and in the Declaration on Relationship of the Church to Non-Christian Religions (Nostra Aetate)

Throughout his pontificate, Pope John Paul II led the Church in a purification as we confronted the indictments of history…in our relations with the Jews, with the Orthodox, with Protestants, with notorious events such as those involving both Galileo and Jan Hus, among many others

In his visit to Athens in 2001, Pope John Paul declared:

For the occasions past and present, when sons and daughters of the Catholic Church have sinned by action or omission against their Orthodox brothers and sisters, may the Lord grant us the forgiveness we beg of him

Some memories are especially painful, and some events of the distant past have left deep wounds in the minds and hearts of people to this day. I am thinking of the disastrous sack of the imperial city of Constantinople, which was for so long the bastion of Christianity in the East. It is tragic that the assailants, who had set out to secure free access for Christians to the Holy Land, turned against their own brothers in the faith. The fact that they were Latin Christians fills Catholics with deep regret

Those actions were not only a scandal…they were disgusting

What could be said about antisemitism within the Church, and facilitated by the Church, would fill many posts and deserves even greater analysis as we confront the historical reality – and so much of my thought there goes to the extraordinary measures of Pope John Paul II and to Cardinal Bea before him

With regard to the Reformation, the fifth centenary of which we are presently commemorating all around the world, there is From Conflict to Communion which is fulsome in its treatment of the topic…and where we have actually arrived to in this moment in history. I could only wildly imagine all those decades ago what From Conflict to Communion declares but I had no hope of seeing with my own eyes so much progress so quickly

Apart from the academic work in this arena, which is profoundly rewarding, are precisely the reactions of individuals, like what you attest. They do evoke, actually, profound sentiments…as when John Paul was speaking to Christodoulos, the Archbishop of Athens and Primate of Greece; it was obvious to everyone, he was visibly very affected that, after centuries of silence, at last the Bishop of Rome acknowledged that what had been perpetrated…the looting, the pillaging, the rapes, the devastation…called for an appeal for forgiveness too many centuries delayed

The events of May 1204 were absolutely disgusting and the attitude in the intervening centuries a scandal, with wounds that still remain. The Pope does not mince his words just as he did not in over 100 appeals for pardon and forgiveness for events in Church history. Events that are to be found before and after May 1204 – as anyone who has taught and lectured in Church history with frank honesty and integrity as a true and detached historian quite well knows

This work and outcomes which we see today will only increase as the next generation of scholars takes up the challenges which the Holy See has already articulated. And, personally, I am very grateful for where they will take everything

Have you read, Wannano, MEMORY AND RECONCILIATION: THE CHURCH AND THE FAULTS OF THE PAST prepared by the International Theological Commission at the direction of Pope John Paul II?

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000307_memory-reconc-itc_en.html

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Good day

I have come to respect you and your posts a lot. But I don’t want to assume what you are saying here. Could you please clarify

Thank you.

 

[reggieM]

Hi reggieM. When I saw you replied I smiled and can’t even try to be mean

I get your point but as Wanano pointed out it isn’t really the definition. Why we are asking for an offiial clarification. And it has also been pointed out not to exist. Personally I have little respect for the language at Trent. The current language is a lot better and I would give that to Catholicism. Yet it is stll proclaimed as being just as true. Saying it is due to the day and age it was promulgated can just help so much. Saying it is the people can only go that far. This is an institution that declares it cannot make an error when talking about faith and morals.

I am not saying you are “wrong”. Just to understand that this doesn’t make sense in its totality.

Regards

Thanks, Michael - and I can’t see where you have been mean anyway, but I certainly feel the same when I see your posts! You have had a good spirit toward this difficult topic, and that is greatly appreciated.

I believe the question is the change from considering Protestants to be heretics to them being Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

This may not seem to make sense, but the Church from the very earliest ages recognized that followers of Jesus could fall into errors or mistakes. Some could fall into sinful behavior.

We could look at Hebrews 10:25

Not forsaking our assembly, as some are accustomed; but comforting one another, and so much the more as you see the day approaching.

Notice that St. Paul is writing to the Christians and telling them that some have forsaken the assembly. But we don’t know what status they had – was it schism, was it because of heretical teachings? They could still be considered Brothers and Sisters, even though they had broken off into another assembly.

The same is true for Catholics. We believe we have been given the true teachings of Jesus and that He established One Church.

But there are many outside of the Church for various reasons. It may be that they still believe every doctrine of the Catholic Faith but they are just in a different church, not the Catholic. Other people may have different beliefs.

So, what the Council of Trent was merely doing was explaining which doctrines are true and which are not. Now, 450 years later, things have changed and generations of Protestants have been raised in their own belief. So, it remains true that some teachings are true and others not true, but there is less need to be forceful in warning people.

We keep in mind that nobody knew what was going to happen to the Protestant people during the 16th century. Would the Protestant churches live on, or would they disappear and come back to the Catholic Faith.
So, Trent was forceful and strong - in the hopes of warning people about starting new churches.

Now, there’s no need for that kind of forcefulness. Generations of people have believed that the Protestant faith is true and they wouldn’t understand forceful warnings - and they would get upset about it, understandably.

So, when you look back and think about Trent, - yes, it’s strong language but it was 4 centuries ago and the Catholic Church was fearful about what was happening. Now there is an acceptance. And, we have learned of the many good things that Protestants have shared with us, and the Catholic Church has benefitted and is grateful (I am very grateful for many Protestant believers in my life who taught me much).

So, we consider Protestants to be brothers and sisters, and yet at the same time we would say that our beliefs are not exactly the same.

Where important Catholic doctrines are denied, we would call those heresies.

But also, a person is not a heretic unless he knowingly rejects teachings and has had an opportunity to be taught about what they really mean and what the effect of that rejection is.

We would say “a formal heretic” – and it’s very rare for anyone who has been raised in the Protestant faith, like yourself, to be considered in that category.
Yes, we would say your beliefs are heretical, as defined by the Church.
But your acceptance of those beliefs does not make you a heretic since you have not consciously rejected Catholic teaching but rather have accepted what you were taught about Christianity.

 

[rcwitness]

My friend Wannano,

Do you notice that we were talking about the Council of Trent? And yet Fr Don has NOT addressed Trent still? Your concerns were about the language and what was said in that Council, right?

If I am mistaken, then please forgive.

 

[Wannano]

It would be helpful to me if you would explain what both material and formal heresy are comprised of. Thanks.

 

[Wannano]

You are most welcome

I remember last year when Pope Francis made the first visit by a Pope to a Waldensian church, when he was in Turin. The history between Catholicism and the Waldensians has particularly gruesome chapters. The focal point of his address was

For those who had any involvement in the dialogue that had been on-going over the years, there would be agreement that the condemned behaviour was not being overstated; it was, indeed, inhuman…and breathtakingly so. Ramifications ensued that continue to be felt in a way that subsequent generations have to accept the woundedness that has endured

The words and deeds of Pope Francis are but a continuation of Pope Benedict and Pope Saint John Paul II as well as Blessed Pope Paul VI and Pope Saint John XXIII, who have brought the Church into a new era with a new mindset of looking at the Church’s past and taking stock of it…as well as how we view other persons and their actions in new lights. That no longer happens along purely confessional lines

As the Pope admitted in 1984 in Geneva

Blessed Pope Paul VI, in his opening speech at the second session of Vatican II, asked pardon from God and the divided brethren of the East. This gesture of the pope found expression in the Council itself, above all in the Decree on Ecumenism and in the Declaration on Relationship of the Church to Non-Christian Religions (Nostra Aetate)

Throughout his pontificate, Pope John Paul II led the Church in a purification as we confronted the indictments of history…in our relations with the Jews, with the Orthodox, with Protestants, with notorious events such as those involving both Galileo and Jan Hus, among many others

In his visit to Athens in 2001, Pope John Paul declared:

Those actions were not only a scandal…they were disgusting

What could be said about antisemitism within the Church, and facilitated by the Church, would fill many posts and deserves even greater analysis as we confront the historical reality – and so much of my thought there goes to the extraordinary measures of Pope John Paul II and to Cardinal Bea before him

With regard to the Reformation, the fifth centenary of which we are presently commemorating all around the world, there is From Conflict to Communion which is fulsome in its treatment of the topic…and where we have actually arrived to in this moment in history. I could only wildly imagine all those decades ago what From Conflict to Communion declares but I had no hope of seeing with my own eyes so much progress so quickly

Apart from the academic work in this arena, which is profoundly rewarding, are precisely the reactions of individuals, like what you attest. They do evoke, actually, profound sentiments…as when John Paul was speaking to Christodoulos, the Archbishop of Athens and Primate of Greece; it was obvious to everyone, he was visibly very affected that, after centuries of silence, at last the Bishop of Rome acknowledged that what had been perpetrated…the looting, the pillaging, the rapes, the devastation…called for an appeal for forgiveness too many centuries delayed

The events of May 1204 were absolutely disgusting and the attitude in the intervening centuries a scandal, with wounds that still remain. The Pope does not mince his words just as he did not in over 100 appeals for pardon and forgiveness for events in Church history. Events that are to be found before and after May 1204 – as anyone who has taught and lectured in Church history with frank honesty and integrity as a true and detached historian quite well knows

This work and outcomes which we see today will only increase as the next generation of scholars takes up the challenges which the Holy See has already articulated. And, personally, I am very grateful for where they will take everything

Have you read, Wannano, MEMORY AND RECONCILIATION: THE CHURCH AND THE FAULTS OF THE PAST prepared by the International Theological Commission at the direction of Pope John Paul II?

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000307_memory-reconc-itc_en.html

Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut and the link, I will read it.

 

[exnihilo]

I don’t know that I agree that Catholics don’t embrace Protestants. I see plenty of ecumenical efforts from Catholics. I also see plenty of Protestants make claims against the Catholic Church. There is a pretty well established narrative about the evil Catholic Church among non Catholics.

You say a lot here and when I can I would like to respond. You also hammer on the fact of “never comitting a mortal sin” well we all know that is not really possible (if we take the Catholic view). So knowing everyone commits them how do you explain that to a Protestant? And the original question of presuming salvation.

It isn’t Catholic teaching that once you become a Christian you can’t stop committing mortal sins. A good Catholic should actually grow spiritually such that they aren’t committing mortal sins and are committing fewer and fewer venial sins.

1. Protestants, for the most part, don’t considered a denomination to be “the church”. In a Protestant/Evangelical understanding, The Church (Called out, elect…) is found in various denominations and it is their status in Christ that makes them part of “the church”, not the denomination they attend. I myself don’t consider a Baptist or Lutheran a Brother unless they profess Christ as their Redeemer. In other words, being a Baptist doesn’t make someone a brother, being a follower of Christ does. And I would say that there are many who are faithful members of Baptist churches who aren’t followers of Christ. There is a difference between being a good baptist and being a Christian. One is religion and the other is a life changing, soul changing, heart changing faith that comes by responding to the conviction of the Holy Spirit and, as a result, giving oneself over to Christ.

I think this is true of modern Protestantism. But I think most if not all early Protestants were as dogmatic and insistent that they were the true church as Catholics. The brother in Christ outlook came later as Protestants had to deal with denominationalism and as subsequent generations were less committed to the specific ideas of their denomination.

 

[Wannano]

My friend Wannano,

Do you notice that we were talking about the Council of Trent? And yet Fr Don has NOT addressed Trent still? Your concerns were about the language and what was said in that Council, right?

If I am mistaken, then please forgive.

Hi rc, I have taken the time to go back and read all the posts again. I find that puts answers others give into perspective of what had been formerly presented.

LA first mentioned Trent and I followed on that so yes, I noticed we were talking about Trent!

I have concerns about the language and the pronounced anathemas of Trent sure, but, my thoughts are coming from much deeper and longer ago. I have trouble explaining it so that it makes sense. It is unsettling to discover that part of who I am today and how I formulate what is truth for me is affected by the reality of the truth of past atrocities done to my own ancestors who were dismissed and martyred as simply heretics.