Catholics for Choice

[Fidelis_Unus]

Ahhhhhh kindly bit your tongue. (figuratively, of course) The Dems almost got away with exactly that, no? Still, we need to be praying harder and making our voices heard.

I personally know many people who voted for Obama because of many other Social Justice issues. I don’t agree with them at all, but I can see that, for them, it was hard to choose who to support and their hearts were aching for the poor and underprivileged. Misguided though they may be, many really are trying to do the right thing. Sounds arrogant, since I presume to know the Truth, but there you have it.

I want to apologize for the above comment. I was trying to be funny, but realize it sounds *completely *different from the way I intended when it’s simply read. :sad_yes: My DH is a Democrat and almost all of my friends are Democrat and non-Catholic. We joke like this all the time.Truth is, In my heart I am a Democrat, as a majority of Catholics were at one time. I’ve been read since Roe v Wade and It is the abortion issue that keeps me red.

No one complained, btw, I just came across it and it bothered me, so if someone *was *offended I hope you can forgive the comment. :imsorry:

Mea culpa

 

[michaeldaniels]

Catholics for Choice??? That is strange…as a Catholic, you don’t have the luxury of making that choice…it isn’t a viable option…they should rename their group “Faux Catholics for Eternal Damnation”

 

[hazmae]

I try not to judge the person just the action but really. Pro choice Catholics are like the person who claims they are vegan while they are chomping on a big steak. Maybe they want to be but they are not.
It would maybe be different if they said. I don’t understand this teaching of the Church but most don’t. They just say the Church is wrong.
My wonderful wise daughter taught me that if I think something the Church teaches is not right it is because I don’t understand yet. Pray for understanding and pray for the prochoice.

 

[peary1]

Choice on what? To support a ghastly and seriously flawed law that allows women to murder their own child in the womb? That’s a choice? Really??

 

[limerick]

These people masqurade as Catholics. Thier false teachings harm the Catholic culture.

Does a “false teaching” do as much actual harm as sexual abuse perpetrated by clergy? If Catholicism is such an impenetrable, infallible truth then it is beyond the effects of opinions expressed by those who do not follow its teachings to the letter. Those who adhere to the dogma and doctrine of Catholicism purchase the right to live in psychological and spiritual “safety”; rest assured that those who do not will be judged and penalized accordingly.

I submit that Catholicism is not a culture. The very notion demeans its significance in the eyes of practicing Catholics. This is an either/or proposition: either one is a Catholic, practicing every moral precept to the letter, attending mass on every day required, raising one’s children in the faith, and so on; or one is not a Catholic, if refusing any or all teachings of the Church, even though s/he may have been born into the faith and indoctrinated with the beliefs set forth by the Church. There ain’t no “in between”. As a former practicing Catholic, I can tell you that once the disenchantment begins to grow and a questioning Catholic starts looking elsewhere for spiritual guidance and redemption, there is no going back without doubt or resentment.

Catholics are free to believe as they wish. Remember, though, that we outside the fold are also free to believe as we wish. Your Catholicism in no way threatens me; why would you be anxious about my non-Catholicism?

Limerick

 

[limerick]

Choice on what? To support a ghastly and seriously flawed law that allows women to murder their own child in the womb? That’s a choice? Really??

Yes, that is currently a legal choice in the United States.

Limerick

 

[Timbothefiveth]

Does a “false teaching” do as much actual harm as sexual abuse perpetrated by clergy?

This one actually does. It centers around being able to kill people.

why would you be anxious about my non-Catholicism?

Because we’re worried for you.

Yes, that is currently a legal choice in the United States.

But that doesn’t mean it should be. Jim Crow laws were once legal in the United States.

 

[CPA2]

St. Thomas Aquinas gave the classical definition of truth. He said, “It is the conformity of the mind with objective reality…Every truth, if it is really truth, presents itself as universal, even if it is not the whole truth. If something is true, then it must be true for all people and at all times.”

Some people say that there is no truth with a capital “T”? Is it true that there is no truth? If you believe that statement, then you are between the devil and the deep blue sea. It is what St. Thomas Aquinas would call a self-contradiction (“contradiction in actu exercito”).

As I have said in other threads, truth is immutable. It does not change through the ages. Truth does not have legs on it. It does not move around with the changing of the times. Truth cannot be denied.

“It seems to me that one must bring men back…to the hope of finding the truth (St. Thomas Aquinas).” Sixteen centuries later we are at a similar crossroads. (I read the book, Summa Theologiae, by St. Thomas Aquinas when I was a teenager.)

 

[limerick]

This one actually does. It centers around being able to kill people.

Anyone has the capacity to kill another at any time. The subject is not strictly germane to Catholicism and the perceived threat against it. The responsibility for killing is squarely on the shoulders of the killer, not the Catholic two doors down who fosters some free-floating anxiety about the outside possibility that a killing may someday occur.

Because we’re worried for you.

Why worry when you can pray?

But that doesn’t mean it should be. Jim Crow laws were once legal in the United States.

Zzzzz - yes, many things were legal once that are no longer legal. The pendulum swings. It’s quite possible that abortion may again become illegal in the U.S. The question was asked and answered: abortion is legal today in this country. No argument here - just a fact.

Limerick

 

[youngoldguy]

I submit that Catholicism is not a culture. The very notion demeans its significance in the eyes of practicing Catholics. This is an either/or proposition: either one is a Catholic, practicing every moral precept to the letter, attending mass on every day required, raising one’s children in the faith, and so on; or one is not a Catholic, if refusing any or all teachings of the Church, even though s/he may have been born into the faith and indoctrinated with the beliefs set forth by the Church. There ain’t no “in between”. As a former practicing Catholic, I can tell you that once the disenchantment begins to grow and a questioning Catholic starts looking elsewhere for spiritual guidance and redemption, there is no going back without doubt or resentment.

Catholics are free to believe as they wish. Remember, though, that we outside the fold are also free to believe as we wish. Your Catholicism in no way threatens me; why would you be anxious about my non-Catholicism?

Limerick

 

[youngoldguy]

I submit that Catholicism is not a culture. The very notion demeans its significance in the
eyes of practicing Catholics. This is an either/or proposition: either one is a Catholic,
practicing every moral precept to the letter, attending mass on every day required,
raising one’s children in the faith, and so on; or one is not a Catholic, if refusing any or
all teachings of the Church, even though s/he may have been born into the faith and
indoctrinated with the beliefs set forth by the Church. There ain’t no “in between”. As a
former practicing Catholic, I can tell you that once the disenchantment begins to grow
and a questioning Catholic starts looking elsewhere for spiritual guidance and
redemption, there is no going back without doubt or resentment.

I agree Catholicism is not a culture, the Church is more than that. It’s Christ’s spouse. It
will survive and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. However through out Her
history many evils have taken members from her. (Why shouldn’t we be upset with
this)!!! Despite all, She has remained imbedded in the rock of Jesus Christ the ultimate
truth. We should be mad at abusive and fallen away priests, who have abused it’s
innocents and caused people to leave the Church. Likewise, we should be mad at
prochoice “Catholics” who defend the right of others to kill the innocents, and then
proclaim membership in the most holy spouse of Christ. Sorry folks, not just anyone can
be a member. I’m not saying anyone in the “Church Militant” is perfect, far from it.
(Only purgatory will remedy that.) But I think a very good case can be made that people
who keep the political power status quo and hence abortion law status quo, (law that is
responsible for the deaths of millions) cannot claim proper communion with the Church.

Christ loves you. But he will not change the truth for you. It is wrong to abuse. It is
wrong to kill. There is no room for compromise.

Youngoldguy

 

[Fidelis_Unus]

Anyone has the capacity to kill another at any time. The subject is not strictly germane to Catholicism and the perceived threat against it. The responsibility for killing is squarely on the shoulders of the killer, not the Catholic two doors down who fosters some free-floating anxiety about the outside possibility that a killing may someday occur.

The Catholic two doors down isn’t fostering “some free-floating anxiety about the outside possibility that a killing may someday occur” as you put it, we are mourning for babies whose right to live has been brutally taken from them throughout the day and for the women who believe that what they are “choosing” is not a big deal, knowing that they will suffer. There is not “possibility of” this is all too real.

“Why worry when you can pray?”

We do, but that doesn’t absolve us of the responsibility to those babies to try and save their lives or to those women who are not provided with all the information. What was that about faith without works is dead?

It’s quite possible that abortion may again become illegal in the U.S.

From your mouth to God’s ears!

The question was asked and answered: abortion is legal today in this country. No argument here - just a fact.

The OP was clear, the idea of a group like this calling themselves Catholic is inexcusable and the question was does anyone know a member of this group? Truth is, I do and it breaks my heart.

 

[turtle18]

I do not believe that to be sufficient evidence that someone is pro abortion, after mass a couple years ago George Bush bumper stickers where around. This is the same time when congress was controlled by republicans, the republicans that could have easily gotten rid of Roe vs. Wade… If you want a bumper sticker of a real pro life politician here he is, thenewamerican.com/culture/family/718

What you should really be asking yourself is this: Why are SIX out of nine of our Supreme Court justices Catholic and Roe V. Wade is still the law of the land? The answer to that is that two of the Supreme Court Justices are Catholics for “Choice.” No, they may not be official members of the Catholics for Choice organization, but their mindset is in tune with them all the same.

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

What you should really be asking yourself is this: Why are SIX out of nine of our Supreme Court justices Catholic and Roe V. Wade is still the law of the land? The answer to that is that two of the Supreme Court Justices are Catholics for “Choice.” No, they may not be official members of the Catholics for Choice organization, but their mindset is in tune with them all the same.

The six Catholic justices you refer to are Scalia, Kennedy, Thomas, Roberts, Alito, and Sotomayer.

Of those six, the only two we can say for certain have ruled to eliminate all abortion rights at the federal level are Scalia & Thomas. We also can say with certainty that Kennedy is in favor of abortion rights at the federal level (therefore a “Catholic for choice”).

The “jury is still out” on the other three justices. Roberts & Alito have ruled to limited abortions in the only ruling they were presented with at the Supreme Court level. However, Kennedy agreed to limiting abortions in that ruling as well even though he favors abortion rights overall at the federal level. We don’t have evidence of how Roberts & Alito would rule if it came down to eliminating abortion rights at the federal level - that circumstance has not presented itself at the Supreme Court level since they have arrived on the court. Sotomayer has yet to hear a case regarding abortion and therefore we have no way of knowing how she would rule on the issue until she is presented with the opportunity to do so.

In summary, these six justices stance on abortion as we know it from their rulings:

Favors ending abortion at the federal level: Scalia & Thomas
Favors keeping abortion legal, but limiting abortion rights: Kennedy
Favors limiting abortion rights: Roberts & Alito
No stance ruled on as of yet: Sotomayer

 

[hollyangel]

• … people who keep the political power status quo and hence abortion law status quo, (law that is responsible for the deaths of millions) cannot claim proper communion with the Church.

Christ loves you. But he will not change the truth for you. It is wrong to abuse. It is
wrong to kill. There is no room for compromise.*

I totally agree!

 

[limerick]

The Catholic two doors down isn’t fostering “some free-floating anxiety about the outside possibility that a killing may someday occur” as you put it, we are mourning for babies whose right to live has been brutally taken from them throughout the day and for the women who believe that what they are “choosing” is not a big deal, knowing that they will suffer. There is not “possibility of” this is all too real.

Then perhaps you’re not the Catholic two doors down. You may be the Catholic on the next block, or a quarter-mile down the dirt road. But do not discount the Catholic next door who has chosen to tend only to his or her own affairs; offer prayers for the decision-making abilities of the pregnant woman and for the souls of both mother and fetus. Some people, even Catholic people, make a conscious decision not to intervene in the lives of others, even in the matter of abortion. You have made your choice to be vocal and higher-profile than they; if you will not respect their right to decide how to tackle the issue according to their own consciences, then at least stand back and begrudgingly “allow” this same right due them as thinking, discerning human beings - even if they disagree with you. And please understand, and I tell you this from my own experience and the experiences of my daughter who has been counseling women considering abortions and has been a patient advocate for them six days a week for the last three years, the woman who believes abortion is “not a big deal” is actually very uncommon and mostly comes in the form of a young teenager who is accompanied to counseling by her very angry and resentful mother.

We do, but that doesn’t absolve us of the responsibility to those babies to try and save their lives or to those women who are not provided with all the information. What was that about faith without works is dead?
**
“Faith without works” can easily be construed to mean interference, manipulation, propaganda, and violence. I endorse peaceable interactions between all parties, but when a mother says, “I’ve had enough, I’ve made my decision, I wish to be left alone to carry out these actions” then that’s the time all parties not directly involved should step back and pray - just pray.**

From your mouth to God’s ears!

I do believe God listens to all sinners, even those who have chosen abortion.

The OP was clear, the idea of a group like this calling themselves Catholic is inexcusable and the question was does anyone know a member of this group? Truth is, I do and it breaks my heart.

**Why? Why does knowing a Catholic for Choice break your heart? Surely you must understand that God will deal with whatever transgressions occur under this umbrella. Doesn’t that take the heartbreak and worry out of it for you? There is nothing you can do about it. We all have free will; we each have a conscience. That is God’s gift to every human being. Your only concern is your own soul, and the periphery of souls in your immediate family. And even there, in concern for family, you are powerless except in prayer. You cannot make people “act right”. You should be enough of a project to keep yourself busy.

Limerick**

 

[youngoldguy]

Wow Limrick, You make it sound like prolife Catholics should not really interact with
anyone in this world (except in prayer). While you may be right that we cannot “make
people act right” certainly we all have the right to be involved in the political process and
even the human process of being a part of the larger social family of work, neighborhood,
town etc… I would go even farther and say it is our duty to be involved. Modern media
says that having faith makes you an unacceptable person to voice an opinion or hold
public office. Mike Huckabee is a prime example. Because he was open about his faith
he was painted as a dangerous person. Dangerous to who? The country? Is our country
getting safer or more dangerous than it used to be when God was still allowed in public.?
Are the no prayer schools of today safer than those of the 50s?

Look, I don’t watch much TV. About the only thing I watch is the local weather channel.
Last evening while I watched it, they had a walking text on the bottom of the screen. In
the five minutes I watch it, I found out that a women was arrested for breaking 12 of her
baby’s ribs and a man was arrested for sexually abusing a 4 year old girl. You may
disagree with me but I feel this is what happens when people decide there is no God! No
one to answer to, no one to pray to. This is what happens when good people like you and
me stay out of the picture and let the “smart people” take over. Without God there is a
void. A void that someone is waiting to fill. That someone is very very evil. Just watch
the news if you don’t believe me. Then get out your Rosary and pray. Then write a letter
to Catholic Answers or what ever venue you have and get involved. You can be someone
God can use to answer someone elses prayer.

youngoldguy

 

[edwest2]

Prayer is powerful but we must act. Not rashly. Not without going to God and asking for guidance. But we must act. Faith without works is dead.

The words Catholics and Choice cannot apply to this matter. The only goal, the only choice is death.

We don’t have to make a fuss but we need to speak up. Yes, it would be easier to say nothing and just ignore it. In the meantime, those who are for death by abortion are saying and doing much.

Peace,
Ed

 

[Fidelis_Unus]

But do not discount the Catholic next door who has chosen to tend only to his or her own affairs;

I never discount ANYONE’s prayers and always pray for the mother’s and children’s souls. Why would you even say such a thing? You called it “some free-floating anxiety about the outside possibility that a killing may someday occur”… I was stating that it isn’t a vague possibility with 3,700 per day in the US alone.

offer prayers for the decision-making abilities of the pregnant woman and for the souls of both mother and fetus.

I do. Doesn’t absolve me of my responsibility.

Some people, even Catholic people, make a conscious decision not to intervene in the lives of others, even in the matter of abortion. …then at least stand back and begrudgingly “allow” this same right due them as thinking, discerning human beings - even if they disagree with you.

Wow, lovely, sounds like I’m screaming in someone’s face or condemning people-I’m not. You’re right, it’s between them and God, but we, as Catholics, are commanded to speak for the innocent. The Catechism is clear, as is the Pope. The subject was about calling yourselves a Catholic and not following the Church or the Pope.

…the woman who believes abortion is “not a big deal” is actually very uncommon and mostly comes in the form of a young teenager who is accompanied to counseling by her very angry and resentful mother.

Never said it was. Many of your observations about me have been inaccurate and undeserved. Who are you to judge a mother’s anger? I know, from personal experience, how incredibly difficult this issue is. Doesn’t change Truth.

“Faith without works” can easily be construed to mean …

This is patently insulting. I have never interfered, manipulated, or been violent. In fact, NO ONE who is truly pro-life is violent. Propaganda is not evil, depends on how it’s used; however the idea that just prayer meets our Catholic obligation is false.

I do believe God listens to all sinners, even those who have chosen abortion.

again, insulting.

Why does knowing a Catholic for Choice break your heart?

Anyone who chooses an action that separates them from God in such a huge way that they automatically ex-communicated from the Catholic Church, and where an innocent life is lost, breaks my heart. Why would that surprise you?

God does not prevent them from suffering for their choices, but he acknowledges their pain, shares it even, as should we. Mary, too, weeps when we sin, for the suffering of her Son which the Church acknowledges, “CCC Para. 598: In her Magisterial teaching of the faith and in the witness of her saints, the Church has never forgotten that “sinners were the authors and the ministers of all the sufferings that the divine Redeemer endured” (Roman Catechism I, 5, 11; cf. Heb. 12:3). Taking into account the fact that our sins affect Christ himself (Cf. Mt 25:45; Acts 9:4-5), the Church does not hesitate to impute to Christians the gravest responsibility for the torments inflicted upon Jesus…”

God will deal with whatever transgressions occur under this umbrella. Doesn’t that take the heartbreak and worry out of it for you?

again, you seem to think I want to punish or judge people, I do neither.

We all have free will; we each have a conscience. That is God’s gift to every human being.

and I’m responsible for following mine, God commands it.

Your only concern is your own soul, and the periphery of souls in your immediate family.And even there, in concern for family, you are powerless except in prayer. You cannot make people “act right”. You should be enough of a project to keep yourself busy.

Just my soul? Just my family? Where is that? Not according to Humanity , the CCC or the bible. We pray for ALL people at Mass & are responsible to all men; including the 9 ways of contributory sin.

We are not powerless, we influence people by outlawing certain actions all the time.

There’s nothing judgmental about recognizing that I was not doing enough (except in discerning my responsibility), but it is required of Catholics according the to Catechism, and to human decency to protect all life. You cannot read the CCC and miss this point. See 2271, 2272, 2274, and 2322.

We may disagree, but I’m a bit weary of being stereotyped so relentlessly by others simply because I believe that a life created by God is a human being and that abortions are not helping women.

 

[Rence]

I submit that Catholicism is not a culture. The very notion demeans its significance in the eyes of practicing Catholics. This is an either/or proposition: either one is a Catholic, practicing every moral precept to the letter, attending mass on every day required, raising one’s children in the faith, and so on; or one is not a Catholic, if refusing any or all teachings of the Church, even though s/he may have been born into the faith and indoctrinated with the beliefs set forth by the Church. There ain’t no “in between”. As a former practicing Catholic, I can tell you that once the disenchantment begins to grow and a questioning Catholic starts looking elsewhere for spiritual guidance and redemption, there is no going back without doubt or resentment.

Catholics are free to believe as they wish. Remember, though, that we outside the fold are also free to believe as we wish. Your Catholicism in no way threatens me; why would you be anxious about my non-Catholicism?

Limerick

Now wait, you can’t just pick on Catholics for that. That’s true of all religions. All relegions believe their religion and every aspect of it is the right and only truth and the right and only way. Before Catholics were burning heretics at the stake, pagans were crucifying those who ‘offended the gods’. And remember the Jews insisted that Pilate crucify Christ for his ‘heresy’. But it was a different time then and people were brutally punished for ‘heresy’ against the regional or ruling religion.

The reason why Catholics are threatened or anxious about non-Catholic beliefs/morals is because they believe the Catholic beliefs and morals are the only correct one, and they believe so strongly and with all their hearts such that anyone else’s beliefs or morals are wrong and they want everyone else to believe as they believe. It is the intent of the CC to make everyone Catholic because a good Catholic fears for those others’ souls. And a good Catholic will try and get non-Catholics to see their way with compassionate counsel. But when people’s emotions get carried away, they can get a bit nasty. It’s not pleasant to deal with, but you just need to take it in perspective and realize they mean well. Just try to have patience What’s important is that everyone has the right to live as they believe to be the correct way, just keep that in mind. And thankfully, living in the US has afforded us the freedom to do just that: We’re each entitled to our opinion and are given the freedom of choice on how to live our lives.

I stumbled across this organisation and could not believe what I read. Surely practicing Catholics cannot have the view points promoted by this group. I can only imagine that they are lapsed Catholics and so not attend mass. They clearly do not understand what it means to be a Catholic and why we have to listen to the magesterium.

Does anyone know any of them inh person and if so do they actually attend mass?

catholicsforchoice.org/about/board/default.asp

I’ve never heard of them until reading about them on this thread. Always from one end of the spectrum to the other,huh? They’re way out there IMOHO. But to answer your question, I would imagine that they do attend Mass with their cohorts? My old parish had a pro-choice priest who was at odds with the Church and his Bishop over many things and Mass was attended by like-minded parishioners. I’m assuming these guys are banding together. I didn’t see anything on their site about them boycotting Catholic activities, though I didn’t look around much.