Catholics for Choice

[limerick]

****Maggie,

Your editorial dissection of my post is a work of art. The game seems to be “remove completed thought from first-generation intent, thereby modifying meaning - AND point the finger at self, thereby portraying first-generation poster as vindictive and offensive”. Well, in order to remedy the situation, I will employ some Vicryl 3-0 suture material and attempt to stitch back together my original points.****

I never discount ANYONE’s prayers and always pray for the mother’s and children’s souls. Why would you even say such a thing? You called it “some free-floating anxiety about the outside possibility that a killing may someday occur”…

I was stating that it isn’t a vague possibility with 3,700 per day in the US alone.

Do you have the capacity to effect change for all 3,700 patients each day in some magical way other than by prayer?

I do. Doesn’t absolve me of my responsibility.

**Which is what, exactly? To judge another’s plight from the outside, proclaim it offensive to your God, your Christ and your Blessed Mother? And if the main players believe in a different God? Then what? Do you devalue their beliefs? Do you stand behind the cloak of The One True Church? See, a lot of people find THAT insulting.
**

Wow, lovely, sounds like I’m screaming in someone’s face or condemning people-I’m not. You’re right, it’s between them and God, but we, as Catholics, are commanded to speak for the innocent. The Catechism is clear, as is the Pope. The subject was about calling yourselves a Catholic and not following the Church or the Pope.

OK, then, I’m a “fallen-away”, “lapsed”, “Cafeteria-Style Catholic”, - I don’t care what you call me - and I had a pre-Roe abortion, so I speak with some authority on the subject. In reality, as days go by, I identify myself less and less with Catholicism and more with just generic guilt and shame. That’s the legacy I have found in this mess.

Never said it was. Many of your observations about me have been inaccurate and undeserved. Who are you to judge a mother’s anger? I know, from personal experience, how incredibly difficult this issue is. Doesn’t change Truth.

I**'ve made no direct observations about you, and yet you seem content to narcissistically cloak yourself in the robes of the victim. Who am I? I am another of God’s creations, thinking, feeling, deciphering and deciding with the brain that He gave me. I am a mother and have had the abortion experience. My cards are on the table, as usual. No one is trying to change truth. But I am a moral relativist - I don’t believe truth is perceived the same by all.**

This is patently insulting. I have never interfered, manipulated, or been violent. In fact, NO ONE who is truly pro-life is violent. Propaganda is not evil, depends on how it’s used; however the idea that just prayer meets our Catholic obligation is false.

again, insulting.

Victimization. Who said you’ve been violent? Not I. I don’t know what your experience is; but I can tell you that there are plenty of folks who paint themselves as pro-life and who are extremely violent. Try as you might, it will be tough for the pro-life movement to divorce itself from Tiller’s murderer. My own daughter was threatened by a man who placed a pipe bomb on the property where she works in the women’s health field. He was sentenced to 40 years. This stuff gives you a bad name and leaves a lingering impression. Why resort to propaganda when the truth should suffice? Again, what is your obligation and how to you act upon it without interfering in the free will of another person?

 

[limerick]

Anyone who chooses an action that separates them from God in such a huge way that they automatically ex-communicated from the Catholic Church, and where an innocent life is lost, breaks my heart. Why would that surprise you?

Nothing surprises me. It might interest you to know that my priest mentioned nothing about ex-communication after my abortion.

God does not prevent them from suffering for their choices, but he acknowledges their pain, shares it even, as should we. Mary, too, weeps when we sin, for the suffering of her Son which the Church acknowledges, “CCC Para. 598: In her Magisterial teaching of the faith and in the witness of her saints, the Church has never forgotten that “sinners were the authors and the ministers of all the sufferings that the divine Redeemer endured” (Roman Catechism I, 5, 11; cf. Heb. 12:3). Taking into account the fact that our sins affect Christ himself (Cf. Mt 25:45; Acts 9:4-5), the Church does not hesitate to impute to Christians the gravest responsibility for the torments inflicted upon Jesus…”

Surely you may have read somewhere in the dogma/doctrine that forgiveness is available to all?
again, you seem to think I want to punish or judge people, I do neither.

and I’m responsible for following mine, God commands it.

**Great.
**

Just my soul? Just my family? Where is that? Not according to Humanity , the CCC or the bible. We pray for ALL people at Mass & are responsible to all men; including the 9 ways of contributory sin.

So we are back to my original premise: prayer is the preferred method of handling the abortion dilemma.

We are not powerless, we influence people by outlawing certain actions all the time.

**You are now referring to law and not faith - if I am mistaken, please illustrate your claim. **

There’s nothing judgmental about recognizing that I was not doing enough (except in discerning my responsibility), but it is required of Catholics according the to Catechism, and to human decency to protect all life. You cannot read the CCC and miss this point. See 2271, 2272, 2274, and 2322.

We may disagree, but I’m a bit weary of being stereotyped so relentlessly by others simply because I believe that a life created by God is a human being and that abortions are not helping women.

Any stereotyping is of your own making. It is part and parcel of the position you take. I have not disagreed that life created in the human womb is also human. However, you cannot judge that NO WOMAN, or NO FAMILY, has ever been “helped” by abortion.

 

[limerick]

Anyone who chooses an action that separates them from God in such a huge way that they automatically ex-communicated from the Catholic Church, and where an innocent life is lost, breaks my heart. Why would that surprise you?

Nothing surprises me. It might interest you to know that my priest mentioned nothing about ex-communication after my abortion.

God does not prevent them from suffering for their choices, but he acknowledges their pain, shares it even, as should we. Mary, too, weeps when we sin, for the suffering of her Son which the Church acknowledges, “CCC Para. 598: In her Magisterial teaching of the faith and in the witness of her saints, the Church has never forgotten that “sinners were the authors and the ministers of all the sufferings that the divine Redeemer endured” (Roman Catechism I, 5, 11; cf. Heb. 12:3). Taking into account the fact that our sins affect Christ himself (Cf. Mt 25:45; Acts 9:4-5), the Church does not hesitate to impute to Christians the gravest responsibility for the torments inflicted upon Jesus…”

Surely you may have read somewhere in the dogma/doctrine that forgiveness is available to all?
again, you seem to think I want to punish or judge people, I do neither.

and I’m responsible for following mine, God commands it.

**Great.
**

Just my soul? Just my family? Where is that? Not according to Humanity , the CCC or the bible. We pray for ALL people at Mass & are responsible to all men; including the 9 ways of contributory sin.

So we are back to my original premise: prayer is the preferred method of handling the abortion dilemma.

We are not powerless, we influence people by outlawing certain actions all the time.

**You are now referring to law and not faith - if I am mistaken, please illustrate your claim. **

There’s nothing judgmental about recognizing that I was not doing enough (except in discerning my responsibility), but it is required of Catholics according the to Catechism, and to human decency to protect all life. You cannot read the CCC and miss this point. See 2271, 2272, 2274, and 2322.

We may disagree, but I’m a bit weary of being stereotyped so relentlessly by others simply because I believe that a life created by God is a human being and that abortions are not helping women.

**Any stereotyping is of your own making. It is part and parcel of the position you take. I have not disagreed that life created in the human womb is also human. However, you cannot judge that NO WOMAN, or NO FAMILY, has ever been “helped” by abortion.

Limerick**

 

[limerick]

Wow Limrick, You make it sound like prolife Catholics should not really interact with
anyone in this world (except in prayer). While you may be right that we cannot “make
people act right” certainly we all have the right to be involved in the political process and
even the human process of being a part of the larger social family of work, neighborhood,
town etc… I would go even farther and say it is our duty to be involved. Modern media
says that having faith makes you an unacceptable person to voice an opinion or hold
public office. Mike Huckabee is a prime example. Because he was open about his faith
he was painted as a dangerous person. Dangerous to who? The country? Is our country
getting safer or more dangerous than it used to be when God was still allowed in public.?
Are the no prayer schools of today safer than those of the 50s?

Look, I don’t watch much TV. About the only thing I watch is the local weather channel.
Last evening while I watched it, they had a walking text on the bottom of the screen. In
the five minutes I watch it, I found out that a women was arrested for breaking 12 of her
baby’s ribs and a man was arrested for sexually abusing a 4 year old girl. You may
disagree with me but I feel this is what happens when people decide there is no God! No
one to answer to, no one to pray to. This is what happens when good people like you and
me stay out of the picture and let the “smart people” take over. Without God there is a
void. A void that someone is waiting to fill. That someone is very very evil. Just watch
the news if you don’t believe me. Then get out your Rosary and pray. Then write a letter
to Catholic Answers or what ever venue you have and get involved. You can be someone
God can use to answer someone elses prayer.

youngoldguy

***I, too, am powerless to make people “act right”. I anticipate that pro-life Catholics are going to continue their participation in doing God’s JOB, as opposed to His WORK, for as long as society, or their community, or their neighbor behaves in ways that displease them and their God.

P.S.: I don’t need a rosary to pray.

Limerick***

 

[youngoldguy]

Clarify how prolife Catholics are doing God’s job?

 

[Fidelis_Unus]

Limerick

Look, I felt a lot of anger and judgment aimed at me in your post, perhaps I was wrong. Certainly, I was irritated and having reread my post I can say how my dry tone could easily be read as a more angry one. I hope that you can accept my apology. I realize at least one phrase is best avoided, at least with those who do not know my dry sarcastic tone and will show more care next time. I am sorry if I have hurt you.

You do seem to feel that I should stay home and pray quietly and not tell anyone that abortion is bad and you do accuse me of being judgmental towards people, though I really am not. It is also very clear that my comments hurt or offended you.

The dissection of your was necessary to respond to your comments, which, as another poster commented, is very difficult without multi-quotes.

To answer your question … my responsibility is to be a beacon of light for the Truth. It is also to help women, which I do. Whether it’s a 1-1 conversation or praying quietly in public, as it my right. Our voices have been silenced in so many places that all citizens should be concerned.

For the record; forgiveness, like judgement, is up to our merciful God.

When you said: “Faith without works” can easily be construed to mean interference, manipulation, propaganda, and violence.” it continues to propagate a very unfair perception of pro-life people. If someone construes something as being different than what Paul referred to, that is their responsibility and not that of all Christians. Someone who does what you describe is sick and I’m grateful that no one got hurt. That is not the pro-life movement, that is someone seriously ill. I just tire of constant unfair stereo-typing. The only reason it will be tough for us to separate from Tiller’s murderer is because the national media and certain groups continue to link us, but sadly I believe that you are right. The first people to cry out against what Tiller did were the representatives from the pro-life movement.

I have not seen anyone in our movement show any anger or hatred toward people who aren’t pro-life, no doubt it happens. I have seen a lot of aggression and intimidation by those who are not pro-life. Any violence is frightening and wrong and has nothing to do with what Paul was talking about.

You asked why I mourn, so I posted the CCC reading to explain why I weep (as Mary does, as God does, …) and that we are to pray, but perhaps you missed the nine ways of contributory sin. They are: Counsel, Command Consent, Concealment, Defense of evil done, Partaking, Provocation, Praise, Silence. Therein lies my answer. Is prayer preferred, yes. Everything should start with prayer, but prayer is not the only method of handling the abortion dilemma.

We are not powerless, we influence people by outlawing certain actions all the time.
**You are now referring to law and not faith - if I am mistaken, please illustrate your claim. **
I’m not making a claim. You said we should pray only. I’m saying that, following faith without works, we should be doing more. You wanted to know what. This was one example, mostly helping women. I gave others above.

Letting others make their own choices would be easy if there weren’t another life involved and therein lies the problem. I believe that we will continue to, respectfully, disagree.

 

[Rence]

Wow Maggie, I think it’s really sweet of you to show feelings of compassion towards someone on the opposite side of the fence in this hair-raising topic. While I don’t find it a rarity IRL, I do find it a rarity on this forum.

 

[Michael_Leonard]

Young Old Guy is right on. Sounds like you got the Holy Spirit working in you my brother in Christ. May God bless you always. I completely agree with everything you stated, because it was the TRUTH and it came from your HEART.

 

[Fidelis_Unus]

Wow Maggie, I think it’s really sweet of you to show feelings of compassion towards someone on the opposite side of the fence in this hair-raising topic. While I don’t find it a rarity IRL, I do find it a rarity on this forum.

I’m finding lots of things ranty here and have gotten more so myself these past few days (maybe I should change my name). Lot going on and when I’m tired and overwhelmed that negativity is awfully contagious. I’m just sorry I got sucked in. Thanks for your comment. Made my morning on a very hard day.

No one is perfect and in that, I may be the least of my brothers, so to speak.

I think the biggest issue here is we who are prolife recognize that the life created is as important as the life of the women, regardless of how God allowed the creation to come about.

 

[limerick]

Clarify how prolife Catholics are doing God’s job?

***By presuming to act as another individual’s conscience.

L***

 

[youngoldguy]

***By presuming to act as another individual’s conscience.

L***

Isn’t that what the world is all about. The Democrats are the Republican’s conscience and
visa versa. The Conservatives are the Liberal’s. Every disagreement since Cain and Abel
has each side posing as the conscience of the other. That is what makes a free society.
The minute one side or the other says you don’t have the right to speak is when the free society disappears.
Read about the life and death of St Maximilian Kolbe and you will
see what can happen. I don’t know what answers you are looking for on these pages but I
do know that you are loved beyond any human capacity. St. Kolbe took the place of
someone else and died for that person. I have no doubt that he would have done the same
for you or me. It was a love beyond human love. (agape) Go to any Catholic church and look
at the walls and you may see an answer better than any that can be posted here.

Take care,

Youngoldguy

 

[limerick]

***So free will, then, is hogwash? And if not, then how far is a conscientious Catholic supposed to take his or her unsolicited advising of another?

L***

 

[youngoldguy]

*** unsolicited advising?

L***

I assume that anyone writing on this forum is wanting opinions or why write?

 

[limerick]

I assume that anyone writing on this forum is wanting opinions or why write?

Let me be clear: unsolicited advising from any individual aimed at a pregnant woman who is considering abortion. This goes far beyond a mere opinion.

Limerick

 

[AnotherVoice]

Let me be clear: unsolicited advising from any individual aimed at a pregnant woman who is considering abortion. This goes far beyond a mere opinion.

Limerick

Yes, it goes beyond mere opinion. Just as one would try to talk a potential jumper away from the edge of a roof top. Why wouldn’t someone speak up and attempt to save the life of a baby?

Why does that upset you so much?

 

[limerick]

Yes, it goes beyond mere opinion. Just as one would try to talk a potential jumper away from the edge of a roof top. Why wouldn’t someone speak up and attempt to save the life of a baby?

Why does that upset you so much?

***It does not “upset me so much”. I simply find it aggravating that one would presume to have considered every option of another’s plight, particularly in view of the fact that this would be impossible, not knowing every detail of the situation as an outsider. And if I found a “potential jumper” I would not try to influence him. If suicide were his choice, he will have come to that conclusion after some mental, emotional, and spiritual deliberation. I’m in no position to counter it with “life is worth living” - I don’t believe I would counter it at all.

Limerick ***

 

[AnotherVoice]

***It does not “upset me so much”. I simply find it aggravating that one would presume to have considered every option of another’s plight, particularly in view of the fact that this would be impossible, not knowing every detail of the situation as an outsider. And if I found a “potential jumper” I would not try to influence him. If suicide were his choice, he will have come to that conclusion after some mental, emotional, and spiritual deliberation. I’m in no position to counter it with “life is worth living” - I don’t believe I would counter it at all.

Limerick ***

I am very sorry to hear that. Hopefully, anyone who is at the brink of despair will encounter an out stretched hand.

 

[edwest2]

Before I joined a group of Catholics outside of an abortion clinic, I told myself: If they are being mean or provoking anyone, I will not stand with them. They were not. They were all witnesses to the truth. Abortion means death. I have never spoken to any of the women going in. I prayed. I held signs showing the Blessed Virgin.

One of the young ladies standing with us did talk to the young women going in. She had an abortion at that clinic and had since given her life to Christ. She lived through what they were about to go through.

Some people are calling ending abortion ‘violence against women.’ What about the baby? Some people, on another board which I moderate, don’t believe you can call the baby a baby until it is a certain number of weeks old. Everyone reading this began life as a human embryo, just ask an Embryologist.

When this began in 1972, women would appear on TV to beg for compassion. That abortion would only be used in cases of emergency: rape, incest or to save the life of the mother. That turned out to not be true a short time later.

Peace,
Ed

 

[CatholicGuy22]

catholicsforchoice.org/about/board/default.asp

These Catholics are heritics. You are either with Christ or your not.

 

[hazmae]

These Catholics are heritics. You are either with Christ or your not.

I hope you learn some compassion before you become a priest. Let me tell you a story from when I was just a few years older than you probably are now.

When I was in my early 20’s I met a young woman who turned out to be my very best friend.
I don’t know how the subject came up. Conversations flow. Abortion. In my self rightous judgemental holier than thou attitude I condemned abortion. How could ANY woman kill her child. She didn’t say much and the conversation went on to other things.
It was years later that I found out that after I left she collapsed broken and sobbing. She had had an abortion when she was 18. I won’t bore you with the details but she felt she had no choice and hearing her story I could understand why she felt that way. I thank God that she didn’t just write me off as a friend possiblity. We’ve been friends for over 30 years and have helped each other through many many hard times.
To borrow a phrase from the documentary that debunks An Inconvienent Truth. Not evil, just wrong.
Is there evil at work in Catholics for choice? Absolutely. The evil one is suducing them and using them so have pity on them and pray for them. I can tell you from experience that you will change no hearts with anger, hate and judging.

Also in your rant, I see the Pharisees pointing and shouting. Heretic!!!