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Eric_Hilbert
Guest
Remain on topic and cease from personal remarks
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Stylites
Guest
So some man makes his decision to rape someone, and others would try to claim that all we can do is wring our hands and pray about it, that the free will of the rapist supercedes the right of another to be free of violent abuse.
Another man decides to enslave another, and we’re all supposed to leave it all up to God because of some twisted understanding of “free will.” Thanks but no thanks.
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LittleSoldier
Guest
I ended up in a very long debate (with other prolifers) with a member of this group. I had never heard of “Catholics for Choice” before. The first thing I noticed was a photo with smiling faces and the words “Good Catholics Use Condoms.”
Evidently they believe that the Church is completely out of touch with voters in the US (and perhaps Canada) and that this will change: contraception and abortion will be endorsed by the Church. They believe they can change Church dogma.
It makes no sense to me. If they don’t agree with the Church they are free to leave. I did (but I came back
).Oh Blessed Mother,
please pray for us.
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Pondero
Guest
Yes, Little Soldier, Catholics for Choice do exist. I knew one such member of that group and he was a Catholic school principal in Toronto. He has since retired.
Unfortunately, one gets nowhere by arguing with them in my view. They are the victims of a faulty Catholic education given to people here in Catholic schools since Vatican II.
Say a prayer for them, that is all one can do.
Unfortunately, one gets nowhere by arguing with them in my view. They are the victims of a faulty Catholic education given to people here in Catholic schools since Vatican II.
Say a prayer for them, that is all one can do.
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LittleSoldier
Guest
I do pray for them, but I wonder about your statement about them being victims of a faulty post Vatican II education. I had the same education and yes, it was faulty in many respects (in fact my Catholic parents pulled me out of the school one day and sent me to the public school the next day), but I never believed that abortion was acceptable. So I think perhaps education is part of the reason but there must be something else.
But the more I think about it the more I wonder about that education, at least as far as religious studies were concerned. I remember being very confused and going through the motions regarding my first Confession, Holy Communion, and Confirmation. I didn’t understand what was going on (nobody in my class did) and I’m still dealing with a feeling of betrayal. So perhaps you are correct.
And if you are correct and Catholic schools have improved (and I believe they have), then perhaps this sort of heresy won’t be so prevalent in the future. That gives me some hope.
You are right in that arguing with them does no good. I had that old argument about “a properly formed conscience” thrown in my face so many times and then was deluded with ad hominem attacks. It was an exhausting and horrible experience and I never want to go through it again.
Mother of Mercy, please pray for us.
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Pondero
Guest
Little Soldier
There is a Canadian published book about the situation in Canada called “Salvation Redefined” by Lorene Collins about Catholic parents and religious education in Post-Vatican II Canada, which I have in my bookshelf and read some time ago. It criticizes creedless catechetics in Canada and describes how some parents, dissatisfied with religious teaching in the schools and who found little support from the hierarchy or the Church bureaucracy formed Chapters of Catholic United for the Faith (Lorene Collins became head of the Canadian branch).
There is no doubt that my own children now grown up and away from home suffered from a lack of Catholic teaching, although I did and do my best to teach my grandchildren now the solid teaching of the Catholic Church. And I try to enlighten my grown up children too, if they will listen.
I suppose it is easy for me to do so as I became a convert at the age of 20, and remember the old Baltimore Catechism. In England where I lived they called it something else, but you knew what you believed … Who made me? God made me. Why did God make me? to know him to love him in this world and to be happy with him forever in the next… etc.
It was meant to be memorized by schoolchildren and I in my late teens found it fascinating. I had never heard anything like it in the Church of England or the Methodist Church.
There is a Canadian published book about the situation in Canada called “Salvation Redefined” by Lorene Collins about Catholic parents and religious education in Post-Vatican II Canada, which I have in my bookshelf and read some time ago. It criticizes creedless catechetics in Canada and describes how some parents, dissatisfied with religious teaching in the schools and who found little support from the hierarchy or the Church bureaucracy formed Chapters of Catholic United for the Faith (Lorene Collins became head of the Canadian branch).
There is no doubt that my own children now grown up and away from home suffered from a lack of Catholic teaching, although I did and do my best to teach my grandchildren now the solid teaching of the Catholic Church. And I try to enlighten my grown up children too, if they will listen.
I suppose it is easy for me to do so as I became a convert at the age of 20, and remember the old Baltimore Catechism. In England where I lived they called it something else, but you knew what you believed … Who made me? God made me. Why did God make me? to know him to love him in this world and to be happy with him forever in the next… etc.
It was meant to be memorized by schoolchildren and I in my late teens found it fascinating. I had never heard anything like it in the Church of England or the Methodist Church.
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LittleSoldier
Guest
Thank you for the clarification. I do remember the Baltimore Catechism, although I only remembered the first question and answer (Who made me? God made me.) I didn’t know there was such a problem in Canada, but I do know that in the USA the sisters didn’t do a good job of teaching us about the Catholic faith. I remember being in Mass and wondering why the sisters were spending all their time watching us closely for any signs of misbehavior and using clickers to inform us when we should sit and stand (I felt like a dog or something). I wondered why the sisters weren’t paying attention to the Mass. The only good thing I can say about my education is that reading and phonics were emphasized, but I already knew how to read so maybe I’m not seeing that correctly.
At any rate, what happened was a shame. I know there are excellent Catholic elementary schools here now (my nieces both attended and then went to public high schools; one was valedictorian, the other is still in high school and is one of the top ten students there). I also know that my nieces know and understand their faith because their mother, my sister, also attended our poor Catholic school and knew to teach her children what they needed to know.
Out of the four children my parents had, one stayed Catholic, one is a revert (me), one is agnostic and will have nothing to do with the Church, and one had his children baptised in the Church but couldn’t care less about it now. Those aren’t very good statistics. I wish I had been taught about my faith. What else could be more important?
I’ll see if I can track down a copy of that book. It sound very interesting. It seems that people took their dislike of what was happening much more seriously than in the USA.
God bless!
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LittleSoldier
Guest
I am very happy that I found that outstretched hand when I tried to take my own life. If it hadn’t been there to help me, I wouldn’t be here today.
Thank you. Always keep that hand outstretched!
Sancta Maria! Mater dei, ora pro nobis.
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