Catholics...For Your Advise.

[Bbigam]

Secondly, the analogy of the monkey-human is the closest analogy I can think of. So, far I have not received a convincingly satisfactory reply on this except for the one by ZacIsaiah who replied that it is MERELY a title. Yet it is a title too big for my digestion, because to me, God has no beginning and so He cannot have a mother.

Your monkey-human scenario is surrogate motherhood. A human surrogate mother is not the real, true, genetic mother. Mary was not a surrogate mother, she is really, truly, biologically, genetically the Mother of Jesus. And God is the Father, and Jesus is God. Mary is the Mother of God because she is the Mother of Jesus, God Incarnate. It wasn’t just a Virgin Birth, it was a Virgin Conception by the Holy Spirit.

As Trishie mentioned Mary is of course not the mother of the eternal Creator, as God created Mary, who is human and not God. It is a little hard to grasp, I suppose it’s a Divine Mystery.

 

[spockrates]

…

3 – If the Catholic church is above scripture like what some people here say to explain why they do not follow certain scriptural teachings, wouldn’t that be refuting what God taught? So, is God the master or the disciple?

Hope to see some clear and objective answers.

.

Great questions, Mosacked!

I’ve asked the same myself. What got me thinking about question (3) is that there are some things Jesus said that are ambiguous. That is, it’s difficult to tell whether he meant what Catholics say He meant or what Protestants say He meant. One example:

While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”

(Matthew 26:26)

Protestants tell me He really meant this:

While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is [like] my body.”

(Matthew 26:26)

Catholics tell me He really meant this:

While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my [actual] body.”

(Matthew 26:26)

The question for me was, “How do I know what interpretation is what Jesus actually meant?”

The answer, it seems, is to know who to trust to reveal the truth to me–the Catholic Church or the Protestant Churches. Who do you think I should trust, and why should I trust them?

 

[1ke]

Secondly, the analogy of the monkey-human is the closest analogy I can think of. So, far I have not received a convincingly satisfactory reply on this except for the one by ZacIsaiah who replied that it is MERELY a title. Yet it is a title too big for my digestion, because to me, God has no beginning and so He cannot have a mother.

Are you a Christian or are you a Nestorian?

The Nestorian heresy claimed Mary could not be the Theotokos (God-bearer, Mother of God). This heresy denied the hypostatic union-- that Jesus was fully god and fully man, one person with two natures.

If Jesus is God and Mary is his mother, then Mary is theotokos.

Denying the Theotokos denies Jesus.

So, do you deny Jesus is God? Do you deny Mary is his mother?

Are you a Nestorian?

 

[wanner47]

Mosacked –

Regarding your question #2…

1. Do you accept Scripture as an authority on this point? If so, I refer you to Luke 1:41-43 –

And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and she exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?”

1. If you put the foetus of a human into a monkey, the parents of the foetus would be human. It’d be more accurate to say that the monkey would be a gestational carrier for a human baby. However, Scripture makes it clear that Jesus was conceived in Mary’s womb – and presumably with one of Mary’s ova. Therefore, she’s the biological mother of Jesus.

 

[wisdomseeker]

:

highprayer::byzsoc:

No offense I hope, just trying to make Catholics ‘see’ how some of us think.

3 – If the Catholic church is above scripture like what some people here say to explain why they do not follow certain scriptural teachings, wouldn’t that be refuting what God taught? So, is God the master or the disciple?

all you have to do is find the Church Jesus found and gave this authority. remember the Church didnt started after the invention of the printing machine. it started way before.

:knight2::knight2:

 

[exoflare]

So, far I have not received a convincingly satisfactory reply on this except for the one by ZacIsaiah who replied that it is MERELY a title.

Finally, before we can conclude that the Church is above scripture

The poster you mention never said that it was merely a title, and we don’t claim “the Church is above scripture” in the first place… that was completely YOUR OWN strawman argument from the beginning, as has already been pointed out!

If you want people here to take you seriously, quit putting words in other people’s mouths to make your arguments. I’m surprised the others here even bother with you as much as they have already.

 

[heathernoel]

How do you think that The Church is above the scripture? We are founded by Him, on His rock, using His words, and spreading His message.

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

No offense I hope, just trying to make Catholics ‘see’ how some of us think.

1 – If the Sacraments themselves can save, doesn’t that mean that if a deviously evil man were to also partake of the Holy Communion, he would join you in your heaven? (please don’t reply and say he wouldn’t attend because even the evil Pharisees went for baptism at the Jordan river)

The sacraments are channels of grace. Since we do not believe in “once saved always saved”, a recipient of the sacraments is no more guaranteed a free pass to heaven than any other Christian. I would say that for those who are properly disposed, receiving the sacraments is definitely better than not receing them. But for those who are NOT properly disposed, they are to no avail…

2 – If Mary was the mother of God, just because she gave birth to Jesus who is God, doesn’t that mean that if you put the foetus of humans into the body of a monkey, then that monkey would be the mother of humans? (no offense, but it’s the closest analogy I can think of).

That is quite offensive. However, if a woman could give birth to a monkey, then she would be the mother of a monkey.

Now, to be serious: Traditionally, to “mother” is to bear, while to “father” is to originate. Mary “bore” God in her womb, so she is “Theotokos”: God-bearer. In English we say “Mother of God” since she bore God in her womb. She did not originate God, she bore him.

3 – If the Catholic church is above scripture like what some people here say to explain why they do not follow certain scriptural teachings, wouldn’t that be refuting what God taught? So, is God the master or the disciple?

The Catholic Church is not ABOVE scripture. The Catholic Church is the authoritative intepretor of scripture. When dissentions about proper doctrine arise, the Catholic Church is the ultimate intepretor of what God’s Word means.

Now, you tell us: Where does the Bible say that each individual is the authoritative intepretor of scripture? ANSWER: It dfoes NOT.

 

[Anna_Scott]

No offense I hope, just trying to make Catholics ‘see’ how some of us think.

1 – If the Sacraments themselves can save, doesn’t that mean that if a deviously evil man were to also partake of the Holy Communion, he would join you in your heaven? (please don’t reply and say he wouldn’t attend because even the evil Pharisees went for baptism at the Jordan river)

2 – If Mary was the mother of God, just because she gave birth to Jesus who is God, doesn’t that mean that if you put the foetus of humans into the body of a monkey, then that monkey would be the mother of humans? (no offense, but it’s the closest analogy I can think of).

3 – If the Catholic church is above scripture like what some people here say to explain why they do not follow certain scriptural teachings, wouldn’t that be refuting what God taught? So, is God the master or the disciple?

Hope to see some clear and objective answers.

.

Mosacked,

Whenever I see a post like this, I cringe.

You are giving Protestants a bad name, and we already have plenty of problems. Please do some homework before starting your next thread. I say this with sincere Christian charity.

Anna

 

[benidict]

Mosacked,

Whenever I see a post like this, I cringe.

You are giving Protestants a bad name, and we already have plenty of problems. Please do some homework before starting your next thread. I say this with sincere Christian charity.

Anna

hi anna. hope you had a great thanksgiving. this is mild. you should see some of his other post.lol!

 

[Anna_Scott]

hi anna. hope you had a great thanksgiving. this is mild. you should see some of his other post.lol!

I don’t think I could read another one.

I did have a good Thanksgiving. Thanks. Hope you did as well.

Anna

 

[kfinstad]

… 1 – If the Sacraments themselves can save, doesn’t that mean that if a deviously evil man were to also partake of the Holy Communion, he would join you in your heaven? …

2 – If Mary was the mother of God, just because she gave birth to Jesus who is God, doesn’t that mean that if you put the foetus of humans into the body of a monkey, then that monkey would be the mother of humans? …

3 – If the Catholic church is above scripture like what some people here say to explain why they do not follow certain scriptural teachings, wouldn’t that be refuting what God taught? So, is God the master or the disciple?

Hope to see some clear and objective answers.

.

1. You went from a general to a specific rather quickly: stating “if/then” where the sacraments are concerned, then mentioned Holy Communion–are you asking about seven sacraments, or Holy Communion. Jesus does save and therefore, Holy Communion saves; God does forgive and therefore, there is forgiveness through Confession; the Trinity does separate us from sin and therefore, Baptism does loosen us from Original Sin; God does consecrate such instituttions as Holy Matrimony, and the Priesthood, and therefore, there is salvation for those who are married, and used by God as priests, sisters, brothers–the clergy in general, and certainly salvation is a gift of God and therefore, as a rite, God may save people upon there deathbed; additionally, there are many stories in the Gospel of Mark, where Jesus healed, and in the Gospels, too, Jesus is quoted as having said, this power rests with his disciples.
2. Isn’t the earth referred to as a mother, and are not her children referred to as foetuses at least since the 1600’s, that take origin in her womb, the earth, soil, dirt, etc.? If you wish to deny God, because He was born as a man, then I suppose: like many Jews, and Muslims, you have a basis to do so–much better to regard Mother Mary, as the Mother of God, and of Our Salvation, as was recognized by Simeon, the priest in the temple.
3. The Catholic Church is recognized as the protectorate of the deposit of Faith, inclusive not only of scripture, but traditions, which have allowed for the stories to be told, and the Bible to be collated. Salvation is the primary concern of the Roman Rite and this is the reason, Jesus is recognized as The Church: do you deny God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit and their superiority to scripture? Scripture itself is testified by some person of the New Testament, to be sufficient for reproof, correction, and teaching: is neither faith, nor hope, and certainly love–greater than proof, correction, and teaching?

Your hope to see some clear and objective answers is somewhat difficult to grasp: given the humor found in what you wrote.

 

[Javl]

Mosacked,

Whenever I see a post like this, I cringe.

You are giving Protestants a bad name, and we already have plenty of problems. Please do some homework before starting your next thread. I say this with sincere Christian charity.

Anna

Anna:

I don’t think that Mosacked was giving Protestantism a bad name. I think those questions were honest ( you should see some of the ones I’ve gotten ). He wants to understand what Catholicism is about and probably clear up some misunderstandings. Truthfully, I welcome all questions from my Protestant brethren, no matter how ridiculous they may sound, for without questions how can you learn? God Bless.

Len

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[AmateurPianist]

Hi Mosacked.

For the record, I am not Catholic btw.

No offense I hope, just trying to make Catholics ‘see’ how some of us think.

1 – If the Sacraments themselves can save, doesn’t that mean that if a deviously evil man were to also partake of the Holy Communion, he would join you in your heaven? (please don’t reply and say he wouldn’t attend because even the evil Pharisees went for baptism at the Jordan river)

For the record, Catholics do not believe the Sacraments save in themselves.

Now you and I may or may not disagree exactly how they work. But don’t you think you might want to know precisely what you disagree with, and what (surprise) you may agree with. Misrepresenting their beliefs does neither.

2 – If Mary was the mother of God, just because she gave birth to Jesus who is God, doesn’t that mean that if you put the foetus of humans into the body of a monkey, then that monkey would be the mother of humans? (no offense, but it’s the closest analogy I can think of).

Now you might want to do some research on this one and learn exactly how the title “Mother of God” came to be. You might learn something.

Hint…Jesus is God (presuming you are trinitarian), Mary is the mother of Jesus. So connect the dots.

Worst case is that this is an ambiguous title (Mary is not the mother of God the father). But this is by far not the worst title that I have seen (for example the title Sola Scriptura is far worse as far as describing what Protestants actually believe). So pot meet kettle here.

3 – If the Catholic church is above scripture like what some people here say to explain why they do not follow certain scriptural teachings, wouldn’t that be refuting what God taught? So, is God the master or the disciple?

Now the Catholic church does not claim to be above Scripture.

Now you might have that perception. But wouldn’t it be more honest and less confrontational just to say that you have this perception and ask whether or not your perception is the truth. You might still disagree in the end, but you might also have a clearer understanding on what it is exactly that you disagree with.

If you approach these matters with an open mind, you might possibly find that although you still disagree with Catholics on certain matters, at the same time you might be misinformed as to what they believe. And you might learn something.

And learning something is a good thing methinks.

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

Originally Posted by Mosacked forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
*No offense I hope, just trying to make Catholics ‘see’ how some of us think.

1 – If the Sacraments themselves can save, doesn’t that mean that if a deviously evil man were to also partake of the Holy Communion, he would join you in your heaven? (please don’t reply and say he wouldn’t attend because even the evil Pharisees went for baptism at the Jordan river)*

The sacraments are channels of grace. Since we do not believe in “once saved always saved”, a recipient of the sacraments is no more guaranteed a free pass to heaven than any other Christian. I would say that for those who are properly disposed, receiving the sacraments is definitely better than not receing them. But for those who are NOT properly disposed, they are to no avail…

Originally Posted by Mosacked forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
2 – If Mary was the mother of God, just because she gave birth to Jesus who is God, doesn’t that mean that if you put the foetus of humans into the body of a monkey, then that monkey would be the mother of humans? (no offense, but it’s the closest analogy I can think of).

That is quite offensive. However, if a woman could give birth to a monkey, then she would be the mother of a monkey.

Now, to be serious: Traditionally, to “mother” is to bear, while to “father” is to originate. Mary “bore” God in her womb, so she is “Theotokos”: God-bearer. In English we say “Mother of God” since she bore God in her womb. She did not originate God, she bore him.

Originally Posted by Mosacked forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
3 – If the Catholic church is above scripture like what some people here say to explain why they do not follow certain scriptural teachings, wouldn’t that be refuting what God taught? So, is God the master or the disciple?

The Catholic Church is not ABOVE scripture. The Catholic Church is the authoritative intepretor of scripture. When dissentions about proper doctrine arise, the Catholic Church is the ultimate intepretor of what God’s Word means.

Now, you tell us: Where does the Bible say that each individual is the authoritative intepretor of scripture? ANSWER: It dfoes NOT.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna:

I don’t think that Mosacked was giving Protestantism a bad name. I think those questions were honest ( you should see some of the ones I’ve gotten ). He wants to understand what Catholicism is about and probably clear up some misunderstandings. Truthfully, I welcome all questions from my Protestant brethren, no matter how ridiculous they may sound, for without questions how can you learn? God Bless.

Len

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Hi Mosacked.

For the record, I am not Catholic btw.

For the record, Catholics do not believe the Sacraments save in themselves.

Now you and I may or may not disagree exactly how they work. But don’t you think you might want to know precisely what you disagree with, and what (surprise) you may agree with. Misrepresenting their beliefs does neither.

Now you might want to do some research on this one and learn exactly how the title “Mother of God” came to be. You might learn something.

Hint…Jesus is God (presuming you are trinitarian), Mary is the mother of Jesus. So connect the dots.

Worst case is that this is an ambiguous title (Mary is not the mother of God the father). But this is by far not the worst title that I have seen (for example the title Sola Scriptura is far worse as far as describing what Protestants actually believe). So pot meet kettle here.

Now the Catholic church does not claim to be above Scripture.

Now you might have that perception. But wouldn’t it be more honest and less confrontational just to say that you have this perception and ask whether or not your perception is the truth. You might still disagree in the end, but you might also have a clearer understanding on what it is exactly that you disagree with.

If you approach these matters with an open mind, you might possibly find that although you still disagree with Catholics on certain matters, at the same time you might be misinformed as to what they believe. And you might learn something.

And learning something is a good thing methinks.

Javl & AmateurPianist,

Well, you both put me to shame. Your responses to the OP were far more charitable than mine. I’ve taken a few “poundings” lately, and unfortunately, the residual effect carried over in some of my responses.

My apologies to the OP,
Anna

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

1 – If the Sacraments themselves can save, doesn’t that mean that if a deviously evil man were to also partake of the Holy Communion, he would join you in your heaven? (please don’t reply and say he wouldn’t attend because even the evil Pharisees went for baptism at the Jordan river)

Answer: No he’d be risking a deeper hell for committing sacrilege. One is ill-advised to act as though Sacraments may be abused. God is not obliged to bless those who approach the Lord’s Table unworthily. Holy Communion would in some respect be effectual in the unlikely case you outline…unto death, not life.

2 – If Mary was the mother of God, just because she gave birth to Jesus who is God, doesn’t that mean that if you put the foetus of humans into the body of a monkey, then that monkey would be the mother of humans? (no offense, but it’s the closest analogy I can think of).

Answer: When the Church says Mary is God’s Mother, it does not mean that He took His divinity from her but His sacred humanity came from Mary alone. Since he was fully God while in the womb, it is correct to call her the Mother of God as a means of separating ourselves from those heretics who would deny that the Savior was fully divine, with all the prerogatives and faculties of the King of the Universe while conceived as an embryo, carried for nine months, and nursed as a baby.

In the situation that you suggest, being in only one respect like the Divine Maternity, a human babe finding itself in the womb of a monkey would in some low sense make the monkey its mother. The difference would be that the monkey would not be the source of any of the child’s nature. Neither wiould the monkey be able to elevate its own nature to the place where it could nurture a human child physically or spiritually. Mary was also the Mother of God in that she cared for him as any human mother would and He responded to her mothering as would any other child. Another difference with your analogy is that the child would not be fully monkey and fully man as Christ is fully God and fully man.

3 – If the Catholic church is above scripture like what some people here say to explain why they do not follow certain scriptural teachings, wouldn’t that be refuting what God taught? So, is God the master or the disciple?

Answer: Whatever “some people here say to explain”, The Catholic Church has never taught anything as a reason why the we “do not follow certain scriptural teachings.” The other questions which follow are dismissed by clearing up the initial misconception.

 

[Javl]

Javl & AmateurPianist,

Well, you both put me to shame. Your responses to the OP were far more charitable than mine. I’ve taken a few “poundings” lately, and unfortunately, the residual effect carried over in some of my responses.

My apologies to the OP,
Anna

Don’t take it so hard, Anna. I’ve been in the same boat myself and had to be taken down a peg or two. Charity, patience and fortitude! God Bless.

Len

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

The sacraments are channels of grace. Since we do not believe in “once saved always saved”, a recipient of the sacraments is no more guaranteed a free pass to heaven than any other Christian. I would say that for those who are properly disposed, receiving the sacraments is definitely better than not receing them. But for those who are NOT properly disposed, they are to no avail…

That is quite offensive. However, if a woman could give birth to a monkey, then she would be the mother of a monkey.

Now, to be serious: Traditionally, to “mother” is to bear, while to “father” is to originate. Mary “bore” God in her womb, so she is “Theotokos”: God-bearer. In English we say “Mother of God” since she bore God in her womb. She did not originate God, she bore him.

The Catholic Church is not ABOVE scripture. The Catholic Church is the authoritative intepretor of scripture. When dissentions about proper doctrine arise, the Catholic Church is the ultimate intepretor of what God’s Word means.

Now, you tell us: Where does the Bible say that each individual is the authoritative intepretor of scripture? ANSWER: It dfoes NOT.

A great post, and thank you. We can all learn from you with your understanding. Too often we go at each other, not only with tooth and nail but many times with AK-47s and elephant guns. I know, I learned my lesson. Again, thank you and God Bless.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[graceandglory]

I have to say that I appreciate the replies from ZacIsaiah, Ralphinal and Gabriel12. All of you can be sure that I read ALL of your posts. I do not post this question in an attempt to insult…it is really just putting my ‘thinking’ into letters.

Firstly, I must state that I came to the conclusion that sacraments themselves save the soul because that was the persistent & prevalent position undertaken by almost all the catholics I have spoken to so far. So yes, your clarification here really helps.

.

Even these good knowledgeable posters aren’t the final word. If you truly want the correct answers, we can hopefully, (all together) guide you to the truth. You can also look at the link on the top bar of this page ^^^^ ENCYCLOPEDIA as well as look up the answers in the definitive Catechism of the Catholic Church online.
scborromeo.org/ccc.htm