Catholics. God didn't leave us His Church. Ordination legalistic

[kalt]

Pardon me if this entire thread confuses the heck out of me? Kalt posted a quote from somebody and didn’t cite who said it? Then a bunch of people are talking about Kalt being on someone’s list? Then SpiritMeadow and Kalt got into it? What is the point of this thread, who made the quote cited by Kalt, and what’s going on here? Totally confused??

SM made the quote. I’m giving you that information, because you asked, but I don’t think who made the claims really matters. I wasn’t interested in the person who wrote it, but in the views of others on that claim.

Onecathaologist (sp?) seemed to think that I was making the claim in the quote (that God didn’t form a church, which is contrary to Catholic teaching. Onecath… likes to attack Catholics by telling them that they aren’t Catholic, but seems to have trouble following posts in threads and tends to lose track of who said what. We don’t take those “attacks” to heart.

I haven’t read through the thread again, and I don’t remember what SM said in this thread.

At any rate, I started the thread to get people’s opinions on a claim that was made on this board. Who made the claim is irrelevant and unimportant to the discussion.

I’m interested in other people’s opinions on that claim. I’m not interested in a who said what game. The person who made the claim isn’t the topic of this thread. The claim is.

I hope that clears it up.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Opinions on this comment, please.

"You say God created a church, I don’t. Most scholars would agree with me. Jesus was thoroughly Jewish. You can believe what you wish of course that your church’s explanation that they have authority to define all these minor rules and formula for liturgy, consecration and ordination and so on and that God cares one whit about these legalistic trivia. "

We know that Jesus was Jewish. The first Christians were also Jewish. I’m unsure what saying that Jesus was Jewish is supposed to prove.

As a Catholic, do you believe that how we do ordinations and the Eucharist are legalisitc trivia? Do you think that what we believe about ordination (apostolic succession) and the Eucharist (the real pressence as we understand it) is mere legalistic trivia?

What are you calling to be legalistic trivia? Jesus born into the Jewish culture who himself fulfilled the “legalistic” Laws and prophecies. These so called rules, formulas you appear to be against, Jesus created the Catholic Mass Liturgies which fulfills the Jewish legalisitc Passover. The rules or canon’s for the ordination of priests, Liturgies etc. are set in stone so that no generation or age can change what Jesus created in his Catholic church.

Your anti legalistic mindset of the Catholic church is way out of bounds here; Man can change, cultures change, the canons or rules of ordination, liturgies etc. are what holds these teachings and commandments of Jesus in “Rock” ,that man or cultures cannot change what Jesus fulfilled from the Law and the Prophets. What do you think the bible teaches when Jesus is quoted as commanding?“He who obeys you obeys me”, or “follow my commandments” “and Love one another as I have loved you”.

Jesus built a Church upon Peter, he did not leave us orphans. The Kingdom of God consists of our King, Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, not a democracy of the majority rules or only a select few dictate the rules to live by; The Pope and the Catholic Magisterium protect the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles from ever changing in every age. Rules or cannon’s are made to protect these Apostolic biblical teachings from ever changing, no matter how much Language, Cultures or man’s customs change.

Before you mock the Catholic liturgies or ordination of Priests, find out first how and why Jesus did not invent these, but these came from Jesus fulfilling the Law and the Prophets.
Jesus freed us from the Law which convicted humanity to eternal (death) seperation from God. But now we have a new Kingly High Priest in a new and everlasting covenant, who still lives and is not dead, as the Catholic church rightly proclaims in her Liturgy “Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again”. This is a profession of faith confessed in the Liturgy. And what is it? you want to do away with these profession’s of Apostolic Faith in the rubrics, Rules, Canons of the Liturgies?

I pray, maybe I did not understand your negative legalistic view of the Catholic liturgies and the 2000 year old Ordination of Priests and Bishops? Again the Catholic Popes and Magisterium placed these canons, and rules to protect the teachings and commandments of Jesus and the apostles,so that no one may Change what Jesus built upon Peter and the Apostles. That is why the Roman Catholic Church is the body of Jesus Christ built on “Rock” Peter.

Just read Post 21, the air is cleared up Kalt, my comment addresses the “whom ever quoted it”?

My biblical advice to the OP is either “follow the narrow path” in the body of Jesus Christ in his Catholic church or “follow the wide road to destruction” which leads to death eternal.

Peace be with you

 

[always_gr8ful]

Question: "What is the origin of the Catholic Church?"

Answer: The Roman Catholic Church contends that its origin is the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ in approximately 30 A.D. The Catholic Church proclaims itself to be the Church that Jesus Christ died for, the Church that was established and built by the Apostles. Is that the true origin of the Catholic Church? On the contrary.

Even a cursory reading of the New Testament will reveal that the Catholic Church does not have its origin in the teachings of Jesus, or His apostles. In the New Testament, there is no mention of the papacy, worship / adoration of Mary (or the immaculate conception of Mary, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the assumption of Mary, or Mary as co-redemptrix and mediatrix), petitioning saints in Heaven for their prayers, apostolic succession, the ordinances of the church functioning as sacraments, infant baptism, confession of sin to a priest, purgatory, indulgences, or the equal authority of church tradition and Scripture.

So, if the origin of the Catholic Church is not in the teachings of Jesus and His apostles, as recorded in the New Testament, what is the true origin of the Catholic Church?

For the first 280 years of Christian history, Christianity was banned by the Roman empire, and Christians were terribly persecuted. This changed after the “conversion” of the Roman Emperor Constantine. Constantine “legalized” Christianity at the Edict of Milan in A.D. 313. Later, in A.D. 325, Constantine called together the Council of Nicea, in an attempt to unify Christianity. Constantine envisioned Christianity as a religion that could unite the Roman Empire, which at that time was beginning to fragment and divide. While this may have seemed to be a positive development for the Christian church, the results were anything but positive. Just as Constantine refused to fully embrace the Christian faith, but continued many of his pagan beliefs and practices, so the Christian church that Constantine promoted was a mixture of true Christianity and Roman paganism.

Constantine found that with the Roman Empire being so vast, expansive, and diverse – not everyone would agree to forsake their religious beliefs and instead embrace Christianity. So, Constantine allowed, and even promoted, the “Christianization” of pagan beliefs. Completely pagan and utterly unbiblical beliefs were given new “Christian” identities. Some clear examples of this are as follows:

(1) The Cult of Isis, an Egyptian mother-goddess religion, was absorbed into Christianity by replacing Isis with Mary. Many of the titles that were used for Isis, such as “Queen of Heaven,” “Mother of God,” and “theotokos” (God-bearer) were attached to Mary. Mary was given an exalted role in the Christian faith, far beyond what the Bible ascribes to her, in order to attract Isis worshippers to a faith they would not otherwise embrace. Many temples to Isis were, in fact, converted into temples dedicated to Mary. The first clear hints of Catholic Mariology occur in the writings of Origen, who lived in Alexandria, Egypt, which happened to be the focal point of Isis worship.

(2) Mithraism was a religion in the Roman Empire in the 1st through 5th centuries A.D. It was very popular among the Romans, especially among Roman soldiers, and was possibly the religion of several Roman emperors. While Mithraism was never given “official” status in the Roman empire, it was the de-facto official religion until Constantine and succeeding Roman emperors replaced Mithraism with Christianity.

One of the key features of Mithraism was a sacrificial meal, which involved eating the flesh and drinking the blood of a bull. Mithras, the god of Mithraism, was “present” in the flesh and blood of the bull, and when consumed, granted salvation to those who partook of the sacrificial meal (theophagy, the eating of one’s god). Mithraism also had seven “sacraments,” making the similarities between Mithraism and Roman Catholicism too many to ignore.

Constantine and his successors found an easy substitute for the sacrificial meal of Mithraism in concept of the Lord’s Supper / Christian Communion. Sadly, some early Christians had already begun to attach mysticism to the Lord’s Supper, rejecting the Biblical concept of a simple and worshipful remembrance of Christ’s death and shed blood. The Romanization of the Lord’s Supper made the transition to a sacrificial consumption of Jesus Christ, now known as the Catholic Mass / Eucharist, complete.

 

[always_gr8ful]

(Continued)

(3) Most Roman emperors (and citizens) were henotheists. A henotheist is one who believes in the existence of many gods, but focuses primary on one particular god, or considers one particular god supreme over the other gods. For example, the Roman god Jupiter was supreme over the Roman pantheon of gods. Roman sailors were often worshippers of Neptune, the god of the oceans. When the Catholic Church absorbed Roman paganism, it simply replaced the pantheon of gods with the saints. Just as the Roman pantheon of gods had a god of love, a god of peace, a god of war, a god of strength, a god of wisdom, etc., so the Catholic Church has a saint who is “in charge” over each of these, and many other categories. Just as many Roman cities had a god specific to the city, so the Catholic Church provided “patron saints” for the cities.

(4) The supremacy of the Roman bishop (the papacy) was created with the support of the Roman emperors. With the city of Rome being the center of government for the Roman empire, and with the Roman emperors living in Rome, the city of Rome rose to prominence in all facets of life. Constantine, and his successors, gave their support to the bishop of Rome as the supreme ruler of the church. Of course it is best for the unity of the Roman empire that the government and state religion be centered in the same location. While most other bishops (and Christians) resisted the idea of the Roman bishop being supreme, the Roman bishop eventually rose to supremacy, due to the power and influence of the Roman emperors. When the Roman empire collapsed, the popes took on the title that had previously belonged to the Roman emperors – Pontificus Maximus.

Many more examples could be given. These four should suffice in demonstrating the true origin of the Catholic Church. Recognizing that many of its beliefs and practices are utterly foreign to Scripture, the Catholic Church is forced to deny the authority and sufficiency of Scripture.

The origin of the Catholic Church is the tragic compromise of Christianity with the pagan religions that surrounded it. Instead of proclaiming the Gospel and converting the pagans, the Catholic Church “Christianized” the pagan religions, and “paganized” Christianity. By blurring the differences and erasing the distinctions, yes, the Catholic Church made itself attractive to the people of the Roman empire.

2 Timothy 4:3-4 declares, “For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.”

~gotquestions dot org.

His Church is the body of believers. I’m a believer. I’m part of His Church.
His Church is not religion.

 

[shuzo1189]

(Continued)

\

2 Timothy 4:3-4 declares, “For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.”

~gotquestions dot org.

His Church is the body of believers. I’m a believer. I’m part of His Church.
His Church is not religion.

I encourage you to stop reading Chick Tracts and Start reading some works of the Early Church Fathers. Here is a Favorite of Mine from St. Justin Martyr from around 150 A.D. (40 Years after the last book of the Gospel was finished being written):

"No one may share the Eucharist with us unless he believes that what we teach is true, unless he is washed in the regenerating waters of baptism for the remission of his sins, and unless he lives in accordance with the principles given us by Christ.

We do not consume the eucharistic bread and wine as if it were ordinary food and drink, for we have been taught that as Jesus Christ our Savior became a man of flesh and blood by the power of the Word of God, so also the food that our flesh and blood assimilates for its nourishment becomes the flesh and blood of the incarnate Jesus by the power of his own words contained in the prayer of thanksgiving.

The apostles, in their recollections, which are called gospels, handed down to us what Jesus commanded them to do. They tell us that he took bread, gave thanks and said: Do this in memory of me. This is my body. In the same way he took the cup, he gave thanks and said: This is my blood. The Lord gave this command to them alone. Ever since then we have constantly reminded one another of these things. The rich among us help the poor and we are always united. For all that we receive we praise the Creator of the universe through his Son Jesus Christ and through the Holy Spirit.

On Sunday we have a common assembly of all our members, whether they live in the city or the outlying districts. The recollections of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as there is time. When the reader has finished, the president of the assembly speaks to us; he urges everyone to imitate the examples of virtue we have heard in the readings. Then we all stand up together and pray.

On the conclusion of our prayer, bread and wine and water are brought forward. The president offers prayers and gives thanks to the best of his ability, and the people give assent by saying, “Amen”. The eucharist is distributed, everyone present communicates, and the deacons take it to those who are absent.

The wealthy, if they wish, may make a contribution, and they themselves decide the amount. The collection is placed in the custody of the president, who uses it to help the orphans and widows and all who for any reason are in distress, whether because they are sick, in prison, or away from home. In a word, he takes care of all who are in need.

We hold our common assembly on Sunday because it is the first day of the week, the day on which God put darkness and chaos to flight and created the world, and because on that same day our savior Jesus Christ rose from the dead. For he was crucified on Friday and on Sunday he appeared to his apostles and disciples and taught them the things that we have passed on for your consideration."

Wow, Apparently Marcus Aurelius wasn’t to pleased with this attempt at paganization, because he had him killed. If only he put in more Mithras!

 

[kalt]

What are you calling to be legalistic trivia? Jesus born into the Jewish culture who himself fulfilled the “legalistic” Laws and prophecies. These so called rules, formulas you appear to be against, Jesus created the Catholic Mass Liturgies which fulfills the Jewish legalisitc Passover. The rules or canon’s for the ordination of priests, Liturgies etc. are set in stone so that no generation or age can change what Jesus created in his Catholic church.

Your anti legalistic mindset of the Catholic church is way out of bounds here; Man can change, cultures change, the canons or rules of ordination, liturgies etc. are what holds these teachings and commandments of Jesus in “Rock” ,that man or cultures cannot change what Jesus fulfilled from the Law and the Prophets. What do you think the bible teaches when Jesus is quoted as commanding?“He who obeys you obeys me”, or “follow my commandments” “and Love one another as I have loved you”.

Jesus built a Church upon Peter, he did not leave us orphans. The Kingdom of God consists of our King, Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, not a democracy of the majority rules or only a select few dictate the rules to live by; The Pope and the Catholic Magisterium protect the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles from ever changing in every age. Rules or cannon’s are made to protect these Apostolic biblical teachings from ever changing, no matter how much Language, Cultures or man’s customs change.

Before you mock the Catholic liturgies or ordination of Priests, find out first how and why Jesus did not invent these, but these came from Jesus fulfilling the Law and the Prophets.
Jesus freed us from the Law which convicted humanity to eternal (death) seperation from God. But now we have a new Kingly High Priest in a new and everlasting covenant, who still lives and is not dead, as the Catholic church rightly proclaims in her Liturgy “Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again”. This is a profession of faith confessed in the Liturgy. And what is it? you want to do away with these profession’s of Apostolic Faith in the rubrics, Rules, Canons of the Liturgies?

I pray, maybe I did not understand your negative legalistic view of the Catholic liturgies and the 2000 year old Ordination of Priests and Bishops? Again the Catholic Popes and Magisterium placed these canons, and rules to protect the teachings and commandments of Jesus and the apostles,so that no one may Change what Jesus built upon Peter and the Apostles. That is why the Roman Catholic Church is the body of Jesus Christ built on “Rock” Peter.

Just read Post 21, the air is cleared up Kalt, my comment addresses the “whom ever quoted it”?

My biblical advice to the OP is either “follow the narrow path” in the body of Jesus Christ in his Catholic church or “follow the wide road to destruction” which leads to death eternal.

Peace be with you

I thought the quote was an interesting perspective that I had never heard before. I’d heard people say that the Catholic Church isn’t the church that God left, but never that God hadn’t left a church.

The “legalistic” argument I had heard before.

 

[kalt]

(

His Church is the body of believers. I’m a believer. I’m part of His Church.
His Church is not religion.

This is the more common argument against the claim that God left us the Catholic Church.

It seems easy to refute, though, because there was no other church (body of believers) at Pentacost, and there was no other church at the time Constantine converted, and the people then didn’t create a new church (body of believers). There was no other church (body of believers) for hundreds of years after that.

If someone wants to argue that God’s church is the body of believers, then they have to include in that lot, the body of believers at Pentacost, at Constantine’s conversion, and the body of believers who were the only “body of believers” for hundreds of years after. That “body of believers” would be the Catholic Church.

To say that God didn’t leave us the Catholic Church is to say that God didn’t leave any church at all until the great schism. Or maybe until the Reformation?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

;5183387]Question: "What is the origin of the Catholic Church?"

Answer: The Roman Catholic Church contends that its origin is the death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ in approximately 30 A.D. The Catholic Church proclaims itself to be the Church that Jesus Christ died for, the Church that was established and built by the Apostles. Is that the true origin of the Catholic Church? On the contrary.

Gabriel of 12;
Your above assesment of the Catholic church is incorrect. The Roman Catholic ( faith) church remains these past 2000 years since biblical times and Apostolic succession from Jesus himself; who built his Catholic Church upon Peter present day Pope Benedict 16th a successor of Peter. Please read the biblical reference Matthew 16:17-19.

Jesus did not die for the Catholic Church, Jesus died for all humanity and for whom will believe, to become members of his body in the Catholic Church.

From your opinion, from the get go is incorrect, what makes you think, one can accept your historical prejudiced and bias views of Christian history that only resides in the Catholic church. No other Christian faith existed for the first 1500 years since the resurrection except the Catholic Church. You fail to recognize that it was the Apostles, Popes, Bishops and Priests and Martyrs that died for this Catholic faith from the persecution of both pagan Rome and Jews.

You have made some misguided (twisted) opinions of historical Christian events between Pagan Rome and the Roman Catholic church. For one had the Roman Catholic church in her Pope and Magisterium succcumb to the Roman Emperor Constantine, the Catholic church would have become very powerful under the Roman Emperor, but she did not succumb to his power, maybe you should speak to an Eastern Orthodox Catholic, for these look to the Pagan Emperor as a Saint, while the Roman Catholic Rite looks to Constantine as a good man who lifted the persecution of Her Popes and Bishops.

The second thing of many you fail to recognize from history is; If Roman Catholicism joined herself to pagan worship as you incorrectly stated, the Roman Catholic church would have fallen along with the Roman Pagan Emperor and his power. Thus the Roman Catholic Church still remains just as Jesus promised. She is the longest living human body of believers unchanged in faith since Jesus and the Apostles, out living peoples, nations, kings, and secular powers. This can only be achieved by her partaking of the divine nature of Jesus himself (**2 Peter 1:4 Through these, he has bestowed on us the precious and very great promises, so that through them you may come to share in the divine nature, ,) **making his Catholic church fully human and fully divine.

always g8ful;
Even a cursory reading of the New Testament will reveal that the Catholic Church does not have its origin in the teachings of Jesus, or His apostles. In the New Testament, there is no mention of the papacy, worship / adoration of Mary (or the immaculate conception of Mary, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the assumption of Mary, or Mary as co-redemptrix and mediatrix), petitioning saints in Heaven for their prayers, apostolic succession, the ordinances of the church functioning as sacraments, infant baptism, confession of sin to a priest, purgatory, indulgences, or the equal authority of church tradition and Scripture.

Gabriel of 12;
A cursory reading of the New Testament is the problem your appear to be having. For one The Catholic church put the New Testament books together, what makes you think she would place writings inspired of God that would conflict with her teachings she recieved from Jesus and the Apostles. If you are reading the New Testament without Apostolic Tradition, along with Oral Apostolic Tradition handed down to the Church, you do not have the full deposit of faith.

For you to be protesting 2000 years later about a 2000 year old body of believers in Jesus Christ, which is his body in the Catholic church only gives you a 20th century interpretation of Christian history and biblical reading. You see, the Roman Catholic church lived through these trying times in history, you did not, nor was your 20th century invention of scripture interpretation and historical views.

Your cursory reading of scripture is why you are unable to see the scriptures with the eyes of faith, for you appear to have a faith of sight, and not by hearing, for we as Catholics walk by faith, not by sight. All of what you deny of the Catholic church’s belief to not exist in Holy scripture is a false statment, for I myself can attest to reading scripture from an Apostolic reading, the way Jesus revealed the scriptures to his disciples can see all the Catholic doctrines in sacred Scripture in both Old Testament that prefigures these teachings, and from the New Testament where they are practiced and believed by the Apostles themselves. But you cant see these from a 20th century minset biblical interpretation. Let down your pride and ignorance of the Truth, and allow the Catholic church to explain and reveal these mysteries of God to which she has been entrusted with to give to all who will listen.

cont;

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

always g8ful;
So, if the origin of the Catholic Church is not in the teachings of Jesus and His apostles, as recorded in the New Testament, what is the true origin of the Catholic Church?

**Gabriel of 12;**The Roman Catholic church is the body of Jesus Christ, from whom Jesus built upon Peter and has remained here on earth these past 2000 years. No other Christian faith can make this claim to Jesus and the apostles except the Catholic church who can trace her origins from both biblical, history, which includes both Christian writings and Secular historical records including the Catholic church’s enemies.

always gr8ful;
For the first 280 years of Christian history, Christianity was banned by the Roman empire, and Christians were terribly persecuted. This changed after the “conversion” of the Roman Emperor Constantine. Constantine “legalized” Christianity at the Edict of Milan in A.D. 313

Gabriel of 12;
Did you know that the Catholic church can name the Popes, Bishops and Sainty Martyrs of whom you attest to that were persecuted for their Catholic belief’s especially in the Eucharist, from these first 280 years of Christianity (Catholics)? Constantine did not legalize Christianity, he lifted the persecution of Catholic Popes and Bishops from the Edict of Milan, because he conquered his enemies in the sign of the Cross, to which the Catholics in this history proclaimed Christ crucified as we Catholics do today unchanged and still display the Calvary Cross today. I hope your not going to accuse Catholics of pagan worship because the Early Catholic church records the Crucified Christ as the road to salvation, because Constantine from his vision conquered in the sign of the cross. This last statement summarizes your misguided historical views of the Conflict between Roman Catholicism and Pagan Rome. Only one has survived today, and that is the Catholic church by divine protection.

Peace be with you

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I thought the quote was an interesting perspective that I had never heard before. I’d heard people say that the Catholic Church isn’t the church that God left, but never that God hadn’t left a church.

The “legalistic” argument I had heard before.

True I have never heard “God never left a Church”, Another aspect of this topic that is taught against the Catholic Church, is that the Church Jesus built upon Peter, fell into a total apostacy. This total apostacy view makes Jesus from Scripture a Liar, When Jesus promised never to Leave his Church, and to never leave her orphans, and promised to be with her until the end of the age, and to give his Church the Holy Spirit to remain with us until he returns. This scriptural language from Jesus conflicts with the total apostacy view of Jesus Church.