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1beleevr
Guest
Sadly, that is a wound that will not heal. I just hope that these convicted priests weren’t in the confession box when they were molesting children!
Catholics have confession, what do Protestants have if they sin?
- Status
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1beleevr
Guest
I actually do know some people personally, who believe this line of thinking!
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Nicea325
Guest
That is the obvious and for obvious reasons why refuse to accept it at FACE VALUE,which clashes with your “Johnny-come-lately” traditions.
Seriously…again? This is child’s play.
The Apostles obviously would not live forever, and sin will always be with us, so they passed the authority on to others.
2Corinthians 2:10, “Whom you pardon anything, I also pardon. Indeed, what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, I have done for your sakes, IN THE PERSON OF CHRIST.”
The priest says in the confessional, “I absolve you of your sins.” The priest is acting in Personna Christi, in the person of Christ. Since the priest is acting in the person of Christ, then it is Christ to whom you confess your sins. It is Christ alone who remits them. Jesus Christ uses the priest as His voice and His hands.
As mentioned earlier, the prophets of the Old Testament spoke in GOD’s name. They spoke IN THE PERSON OF GOD. The priests of the New Covenant speak IN THE PERSON OF CHRIST.GOD never changes.
Matthew 9:5-8, “For which is easier to say, “Your sins are forgiven you, or to say arise and walk? But that you may know that the Son of Man has power to forgive sins” - then He said to the paralytic, “Arise, take up your pallet and go to your house”. And he arose, and went away to his house. But when the crowds saw it, they were struck with fear, AND GLORIFIED GOD WHO HAD GIVEN SUCH POWER TO MEN.”
The New Testament lies hidden in the Old and the Old Testament is revealed in the New.
The priest has been given the ministry of reconciliation. He mediates GOD’s forgiveness to the sinner. The priest is merely an** instrument **of GOD. As an analogy, think of GOD as the Supreme Healer, the Master Surgeon. He will remove the cancer of sin from the soul, while using one of His priests as the scalpel.
This GOD given ministry is shown very plainly in Holy Scripture:
Matthew 16:19, when Jesus gave the power and authority to Peter, “And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
Matthew 18:18, Jesus gave this power to all of the Apostles, “Amen I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed also in heaven.”
John 20:21-23, “He therefore said to them again, ‘Peace be to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you’. When He had said this, He breathed upon them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit; whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained’.”
Matthew 10:40, “He who receives you receives Me; and he who receives Me, receives Him who sent Me.”
Luke 22:29-30, “And I appoint to you a kingdom, even as My Father has appointed to Me, so that you may eat and drink at my table in My kingdom; and you shall sit upon thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”
2Corinthians 5:17-20, “Therefore, if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. So we are ambassadors for Christ, GOD making his appeal through us. We beseech you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”
Clearly, the Apostles were given the authority to remit sins, or to bind them, in the person of Christ. How are they to accomplish this if they do not know what sins to remit or to bind? The sinner is required to confess his sins as shown.
1John 1:8-10, " If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."
Oh trust me, I understand it in its proper context,not cherry picking as many non-Catholics do with most of scripture. A text without a context is simply a pretext and nothing more.
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pablope
Guest
The wages of sin are indeed death as these separate us from Christ when we sin. And how do we restore our life in Christ…by confession and receiving absolution and restitution, which Zaccheus is doing.
By paying your debt to society…when in jail, be a model prisoner, and lead a new life. A murderer took life, and he can give life back by bringing new life…a kind of life that turns away from sin and to Christ…not just himself, but bringing his fellowmen to…a new life in Christ. That is one way to pay your restition.
Then believe and trust in God’s mercy.
As I said, David is not confessing here, he had already confessed. Psalm 51 was written after he had admitted his sin to Nathan and been absolved.
For to be confessing here again, meant David did not trust God’s word acting through Nathan, had no trust in God’s mercy, and you are making God untrustworthy and unreliable. If God is unreliable, then why would you trust the words you believe He spoke through your prophet EG White or your pastor’s words?
Nathan was a prophet and was God’s spokesman and David knew this. He trusted what he admitted to Nathan and when Nathan absolved him in v13 as from God and that was enough for David.
I do not think you would admit that David did not trust in God’s prophet and God’s mercy.
David confessed and was absolved because he realized he had offended God and wanted to be reconciled back to God. Psalm 51 is his desire to expiate the conseguences of his sin.
Sincerety is required to be forgiven. I had responded regarding Psalm 51.
Put on some catholic glasses even for a few minutes, and this will become clear and it will clear your confusion.
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onenow1
Guest
Hi, Pablope, here’s one of the lens below maybe some help in understanding. ???
Here: •that penance is not a mere human invention devised by the Church to secure power over consciences or to relieve the emotional strain of troubled souls; it is the ordinary means appointed by Christ for the remission of sin. Man indeed is free to obey or disobey, but once he has sinned, he must seek pardon not on conditions of his own choosing but on those which God has determined, and these for the Christian are embodied in the Sacrament of Penance.
•No Catholic believes that a priest, simply as an individual man, however pious or learned, has power to forgive sins. This power belongs to God alone; but He can and does exercise it through the ministration of men. Since He has seen fit to exercise it by means of this sacrament, it cannot be said that the Church or the priest interferes between the soul and God; on the contrary, penance is the removal of the one obstacle that keeps the soul away from God.
•It is not true that for the Catholic the mere “telling of one’s sins” suffices to obtain their forgiveness. Without sincere sorrow and purpose of amendment, confession avails nothing, the pronouncement of absolution is of no effect, and the guilt of the sinner is greater than before.
•While this sacrament as a dispensation of Divine mercy facilitates the pardoning of sin, it by no means renders sin less hateful or its consequences less dreadful to the Christian mind; much less does it imply permission to commit sin in the future. In paying ordinary debts, as e.g., by monthly settlements, the intention of contracting new debts with the same creditor is perfectly legitimate; a similar intention on the part of him who confesses his sins would not only be wrong in itself but would nullify the sacrament and prevent the forgiveness of sins then and there confessed.
•Strangely enough, the opposite charge is often heard, viz., that the confession of sin is intolerable and hard and therefore alien to the spirit of Christianity and the loving kindness of its Founder. But this view, in the first place, overlooks the fact that Christ, though merciful, is also just and exacting. Furthermore, however painful or humiliating confession may be, it is but a light penalty for the violation of God’s law. Finally, those who are in earnest about their salvation count no hardship too great whereby they can win back God’s friendship.
Both these accusations, of too great leniency and too great severity, proceed as a rule from those who have no experience with the sacrament and only the vaguest ideas of what the Church teaches or of the power to forgive sins which the Church received from Christ.
newadvent.org/cathen/11618c.htm
Peace,
[/quote]
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RealEstateCarol
Guest
The Bible says there has to be a death payment made for sin.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Jesus made that death payment.
Romans 5:8
But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
All we have to do is accept the payment Jesus made.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Not by works
Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law
Eph 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast
Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Philippians 3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith
Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, .his faith is counted for righteousness
Galatians 2:21
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Jesus made that death payment.
Romans 5:8
But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
All we have to do is accept the payment Jesus made.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Not by works
Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law
Eph 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast
Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Philippians 3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith
Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, .his faith is counted for righteousness
Galatians 2:21
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
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graceandglory
Guest
Yes. And I disagree with you in what you call Christlike. Our priests have the power to forgive sins in Jesus’ name, according to the Great Commission. Therefore, doing what the apostles started, seems to be pretty Christlike.So you’re coming from a exclusionistic position by implying that only catholics get a tangible"I Know I’ve Been Forgiven " feeling! Not very Christlike!
As for tangible vs. ingangible. Yes, it is exclusive. Those who receive the true Sacrament of Confession through the priest receive a tangible grace from God. THose who don’t must trust an intangible “feeling.”
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1beleevr
Guest
I mean your behavior is not Christlike!
Giving the message that if you aren’t catholic, you are on the outside looking in! I don’t believe that was Jesus’s message; that salvation, forgiveness, and eternal life was meant even for us Gentiles! But then, it sounds like you believe in dividing the Body of Christ, which I am a part of!
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1beleevr
Guest
And on Pentecost Sunday, the disciples received the Holy Spirit, in the form of “tongues of fire.” They were then able to preach the Gospel; they were no longer afraid! What happeneed between John 20:20-23, and Acts 2? Did they forgive any sins? Did they ever? And speaking of confession, who are the " one to anothers", James exhorts us to confess to? There is no mention of a priest here! So, the Him in 1John 1:9, is God, and the mediator is Christ! H-m-m-m-m-m-m! Your serve!
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Nicea325
Guest
One more TIME:And on Pentecost Sunday, the disciples received the Holy Spirit, in the form of “tongues of fire.” They were then able to preach the Gospel; they were no longer afraid! What happeneed between John 20:20-23, and Acts 2? Did they forgive any sins? Did they ever? And speaking of confession, who are the " one to anothers", James exhorts us to confess to? There is no mention of a priest here! So, the Him in 1John 1:9, is God, and the mediator is Christ! H-m-m-m-m-m-m! Your serve!
The priest is merely **an instrument **of GOD. As an analogy, think of GOD as the Supreme Healer, the Master Surgeon. He will remove the cancer of sin from the soul, while using one of His priests as the scalpel.Hhhmmmmmmmmm!
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pablope
Guest
Thanks, onenow1…lapey gave a good reply, that is why I did not reply anymore. Try as you might, our friend Richard the SDA will not put on his Catholic lens, no matter what to understand the CC position.Hi, Pablope, here’s one of the lens below maybe some help in understanding. ???
Here: •that penance is not a mere human invention devised by the Church to secure power over consciences or to relieve the emotional strain of troubled souls; it is the ordinary means appointed by Christ for the remission of sin. Man indeed is free to obey or disobey, but once he has sinned, he must seek pardon not on conditions of his own choosing but on those which God has determined, and these for the Christian are embodied in the Sacrament of Penance.
Both these accusations, of too great leniency and too great severity, proceed as a rule from those who have no experience with the sacrament and only the vaguest ideas of what the Church teaches or of the power to forgive sins which the Church received from Christ.
newadvent.org/cathen/11618c.htm
Peace,
This is what he said in a previous post…“This is a canon of the CC. It really doesn’t matter what I think.” He is misinterpreting it, yet he does not want to be corrected…
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Mark_David
Guest
They don’t receive forgiveness - at least not with any certainty. Protestants believe that they’re already saved; but, in that context, prayer doesn’t even make sense. They argue otherwise, of course (though I’m not even sure what or why they’d confess anything in prayer, since they believe in faith-alone salvation). Also, as everyone agrees: Protestants can and do sin; all of them. So how on earth are they “already saved”? Nothing impure will enter into heaven! We require God’s forgiveness for every sin we commit, and forgiveness can only be given (with certainty) through the Church Jesus Christ established on earth. Prayer “outside” the Church can so easily be to a false idol - that was my regular past experience, and one of the reasons why there’s so much division between Protestant denominations. Forget Paul’s teaching of being of “one mind” in Protestantism; just expect to be complacent in thought and action, and conceited in attitude as to being one of God’s “elect”. In a word: No forgiveness for Protestants, because they don’t require it since they hold to sola fide; and even if they felt they did need to confess, who exactly are they praying to? Luther’s god? Their own imaginary idol?
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Winstone
Guest
You should ask protestants yourself! The difference is that protestant believers will say that they accept the ‘authority’ of the Bible as the all sufficient revelation of what is necessary for salvation and going to Christ directly without the intervention of a priest is unnecessary. Of course that may sound an over-simplification but there are marked differences in Catholic and Protestant theologyIt should not need to be explained but surely the answer lies in the difference between Catholic and Protestant theology. The priest is a stumbling block to gaining direct access to Christ so they rely and protested historically on the ‘authority’ of the Bible itself. So, they appeal to the mercy and forgiveness of God from Holy Scripture, and they can make a good case for it. In other words, the Bible gives its own assurance. Here are some examples, which should also be consoling to Catholics!
John 3: 14-1814 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,[f] 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”[g]
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
Luke 1:77
to give his people the knowledge of salvation through the forgiveness of their sins,
Acts 10:43
All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
Acts 13:38
“Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you.
8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.
1 John 2
1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
As a Catholic, I have often heard that the books of ‘‘The Bible’’ are the family papers of the Church and yet my experience is that we don’t read it, which is a valid accusation made by some Protestants. We say it is the ‘‘the word of God’’ and yet we know little about it. The unbelieving world says: Pie in the sky when you die; but like a Protestant once said: No, it’s steak on your plate while you wait!
God Bless You
Winstone - London
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Winstone
Guest
Hello Boys - can I get into the act: Whether a man uses the services of a priest according to his tradition or a man goes to God direct through Christ Jesus according to his belief in scripture (both being in good faith), couldn’t possibly the merits of the Cross apply to both? To me it’s a question of the individual’s faith which determined him to seek forgiveness, and the desire to verbalise it to God via a priest or to God via Jesus Christ, according to that persons tradition or understanding of the subject of confession and repentance. Love ya! Winstone - LondonAnd on Pentecost Sunday, the disciples received the Holy Spirit, in the form of “tongues of fire.” They were then able to preach the Gospel; they were no longer afraid! What happeneed between John 20:20-23, and Acts 2? Did they forgive any sins? Did they ever? And speaking of confession, who are the " one to anothers", James exhorts us to confess to? There is no mention of a priest here! So, the Him in 1John 1:9, is God, and the mediator is Christ! H-m-m-m-m-m-m! Your serve!
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Winstone
Guest
Our Church once made a business of ‘‘sin’’ and sold indulgences, which would sicken every Catholic to the core, if that practice were prevalent today.
One can be assured of salvation knowing that one is being sanctified i.e. cleansed in order to be in the presence of God. 2 Corinthians 3:18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
It would seem that God is doing his work in spite of our meagre attempts of living without sin because he loves us. Are you so sure of the invalidity of the Protestant position from your pharasaical ‘‘Only True Church’’ position. Paul wasn’t:
Romans 7: 14-25
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[d] a slave to the law of sin.
Romans 8
Life Through the Spirit
1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh,** God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Let us Catholics refrain from ridiculing the faith of others - we were saved to love!
God Bless
Winstone - London:thumbsup:**
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Hiskid1973
Guest
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Mark_David
Guest
But wasn’t the majority of that money going to repairing and building churches? That wouldn’t be a bad thing; money for a holy cause would be a good work based on good will, yes? And, even if it were for selfish causes, no one said that there aren’t bad people within the Church; everyone knows that Alexander VI was a bad pope, for example… but that doesn’t mean the Living Church itself is bad. Know what I mean?
No, as I understand it: Romans 7:14-25 is about being in a state of mortal sin. When we confess, we’re absolved from mortal sin by Jesus Christ. Also, consider 1 John 1:8-10 - If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all iniquity. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
This makes no sense from a Protestant point of view; this is not simply a one-time act (as some say, quoting Romans 10:9 out of context), because there isn’t a single person on earth who has ceased from all sinning. No one is just “saved” once and for all.
I didn’t mean to offend anyone (and if I did, I apologize), but it’s probably inevitable in theological debates. I only recently left Protestantism for the Catholic Church (actually, a return-to); which has opened my eyes and my heart. It’s answered many spiritual and intellectual issues for me, and, for the first time in memory (and most importantly of all) has allowed me to actually feel the presence of the Holy Spirit. So yes: naturally, I am going to warn against what I believe are the false promises of my former “faith”. But ridicule? I hope I’m not doing that. Likewise, you’re free to counter any of my statements at any time.
God bless you too.
J
JonathonofOhio
Guest
You seem to be implying that the act of confessing your sins to a priest is a work of the Law and cannot save you. Confession is part of the new covenant that God made with man through Jesus Christ. It is one of the Sacraments which He gave to us that had it’s foundation in the Law, but is now part of the New Covenant not of the Old.
Some of these verses that you quote are a response to the Jews that thought you had to convert and become a Jew before you could become a Christian. Their message is that there is no life giving grace in the Law, so there is no need to do these works anymore, only what Christ instructed us to do. Christ came to fulfill the Law not abolish it, therefore there is no need to do WORKS OF THE LAW, but your interpretation of these scriptures suggests that Christ abolished the Law, and that is clearly wrong (Matthew 5:17).
Under the Law God commanded confession of sins and the remission of them through priests (see Leviticus). In the New Covenant, it is the same because Jesus confirmed it to be so (see various biblical references in previous posts), and God does not change (Malachi 3:6). God gave us the Sacraments that spring forth living waters (grace) so that we might be saved through them. And as you quoted “it is by grace we are saved through faith”. In the Sacraments is Jesus, and the only way to God is through Him, and our faith in Him draws us to the springs of life so that we may ‘drink’ and be saved. And it is NOT by OUR works, but by God works because the Sacraments are a work of God not a work of man.
Does a person who is thirsty sit and wait for the rain so that he can have his thirst quenched? No, he goes to find a place where there is water that God provides and drinks. Goes doesn’t bring the water to the man, the man must go out and drink the water that God provides.
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hesco
Guest
First I would like to say Congrats!! I am too a convert 3 years ago. Growing up Protestant with questions like that and the answers I received ( All you do is except Jesus as your Savior and just ask God for your forgiveness and you will to to heaven) my faith was not all that great. I knew in my heart that there has to be more then just that. That is why I started asking questions about the Catholic Church. So happy I did!! I always ask my Protestant friends, what if you’re wrong? I am happy to know that my butt is covered.
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Nicea325
Guest
In a nutshell, it basically boils down to not accepting at FACE VALUE John 20:19-23. The different Protestant traditions blinds them to see it and accept it exactly the way Jesus intended it. The RCC does not state on cannot ask God directly,but there is a reason why absolution exists. Unfortunately, most Protestants have a profound misunderstanding of the sacramental life of the church and the lay folks.
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