Catholics have confession, what do Protestants have if they sin?

[Curious_Seed]

This may be a simple question but it’s puzzled me recently.

If I was to commit a serious sin, I can go to confession to seek, and receive, forgiveness. But what do Protestants do in such an occasion, if anything at all? How can they be assured of God’s forgiveness for their sins?

Note - I’m not specifically looking for answers from Protestants themselves, but that would be interesting.

And if you were the only Catholic within a thousand miles of another, what would become of your need to confess?

Is not Romans 8:15 applicable to all Christians, all the time, anywhere?

 

[TrueLight]

Dharmasister, where did you get that quote from your last post? I think I hear Protestants use it a lot. If it is from the Bible, I think it’s been changed because the only place in the Bible where the two words ‘faith’ and ‘alone’ are in the same sentence is James 2:24:

“See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

You didn’t ask me but I’m going to answer you anyway.

Dharmaster was quoting Gonzo4Christ.

Gonzo was paraphrasing Ephesians 2:8

8For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God;
9Not of works, that no man may glory.

It is true that the bible does not use “alone” along with “faith”. However, the conclusion comes from verses like the above.

 

[ajpirc]

Thanks TrueLight. Was that one of the ‘alones’ that Martin Luther added?

 

[kbcdac]

I am speculating that, because of what has been called “invincible ignorance,” Protestants will not go to Hell if they have sincerely repented of their sins.

I agree true believing Protestants who are in a personal relationship with God that earnestly repent (which includes a turning away from those sins) will not go to hell, but their salvation does not come because of their “invincible ignorance”. The bible says If they confess their sin to their Heavenly Father, he is faithful and just to forgive them. Forgiveness (salvation) comes by no man, but by God alone, Christ crucified.
One of the reasons Jesus taught us the Lord’s prayer (the Our Father) was so that we could ask and receive forgiveness, the condition being forgiving others. Most devout Protestants believe in confessing their sins to each other and then praying for each other, much like James suggestion (5:16) to all of the brethren, “confess your sins one to another and pray for each other that you may be healed. The fervant prayer of a righteous man availeth much”. Men can only be righteous if they have, by faith, taken on the righteousness of Christ when He was crucified for our sin. We are forgiven by His sacrifice. Having said all of that, I see Catholic confession as a good thing.
I was surprised by your quotes. (I think, therefore I am, and Freud?) They seem contrary to Christ’s teachings to me, am I wrong? But my answer may well seem that way to you.

 

[dharmasister]

Dharmasister, where did you get that quote from your last post? I think I hear Protestants use it a lot. If it is from the Bible, I think it’s been changed because the only place in the Bible where the two words ‘faith’ and ‘alone’ are in the same sentence is James 2:24:

“See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

I got it straight out of my New American Bible. It is referenced in the Beginning Apologetics 1 How to Explain & Defend the Catholic Faith, written by Father Frank Chacon & Jim Burnham, published by San Juan Catholic Seminars.

 

[ajpirc]

I got it straight out of my New American Bible. It is referenced in the Beginning Apologetics 1 How to Explain & Defend the Catholic Faith, written by Father Frank Chacon & Jim Burnham, published by San Juan Catholic Seminars.

Wait, that was from the New American Bible? That doesn’t look like it would be in a Catholic Bible.

 

[dharmasister]

You didn’t ask me but I’m going to answer you anyway.

Dharmaster was quoting Gonzo4Christ.

Gonzo was paraphrasing Ephesians 2:8

It is true that the bible does not use “alone” along with “faith”. However, the conclusion comes from verses like the above.

Actually, I was not quoting Gonzo4Christ who was paraphrasing Ephisians 2:8. I took it straight from the pages of my New American Bible and I also referenced my Catholic Apologetics Study Guide. They are an excellent resource for those investigating the Catholic Church. You can get them at just about any Catholic bookstore. There are 9 volumes covering many topics of the Catholic faith.

But I am confused about how anyone draws the conclusion of “faith alone” from either of those verses. To me it says just the opposite.

 

[kbcdac]

Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters (priests) of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint [him] with oil in the name of the Lord and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven. Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful. James 5:14-16

Sounds like he is saying that the sins of the sick are forgiven in the sacrament of anointing. He specifies that the priests must be called. They obviously had a power that ordinary Christians did not: the power to forgive sins. Otherwise, why not just ask an ordinary, fellow Christian to pray over the sick as is the case in numerous other passages.

Oh, and check out 2 Corinthians 5: 17-20

So whoever is in Christ is a new creation: the old things have passed away; behold, new things have come. And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. So **we are ambasadors **for Christ, as if God were appealing through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

Sounds pretty clear to me. St. Paul is explaining how the Apostles are ambassadors of Christ’s work of reconciliation and that they share in the ministry of Christ and forgive sins in His name!!

 

[kbcdac]

kbcdac:
St Paul was talking to the brethren(members of the church) at Corinth, not to Apostles

 

[dharmasister]

Wait, that was from the New American Bible? That doesn’t look like it would be in a Catholic Bible.

Yup! It’s in a Catholic Bible that I bought in a Catholic bookstore where I also bought my Catholic Apologetic Study Guides, which explained the Catholic Church’s teaching on confession and pointed to 2 Cor 5: 17-20 so that I could read it for myself.

I’m sorry. I just don’t see how that doesn’t “look” Catholic. James says Call a priest and Paul says We’ve been given the ministry of reconciliation and Christ entrusted the message of reconciliation to us Apostles.

Looks pretty Catholic to me. It also looks pretty Unambiguous to me.

 

[ajpirc]

Yup! It’s in a Catholic Bible that I bought in a Catholic bookstore where I also bought my Catholic Apologetic Study Guides, which explained the Catholic Church’s teaching on confession and pointed to 2 Cor 5: 17-20 so that I could read it for myself.

I’m sorry. I just don’t see how that doesn’t “look” Catholic. James says Call a priest and Paul says We’ve been given the ministry of reconciliation and Christ entrusted the message of reconciliation to us Apostles.

Looks pretty Catholic to me. It also looks pretty Unambiguous to me.

Are we talking about the same verse?

 

[zz912]

In Ps 32, David confesses his sin to God alone
g. I believe it was Clement of Alexandria who referred to that Psalm and said that what David did, is what God wants: confession of sin directly to him.

But hey, what does Clement know? There was no AA in his time.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t that Psalm about the time David confessed his sin to Samuel, who was the mediator of forgiveness from God. God forgave David through Samuel for the sin of killing Bathsheba’s husband IIRC.

So I don’t think your personal interpretation is correct.

Funny enough, but that episode with Samuel also proves the Catholic teaching of forgiveness of sins, but temporal punishment still remaining (David’s son by Bathsheba had to die.)

 

[dharmasister]

St Paul was talking to the brethren(members of the church) at Corinth, not to Apostles

I didn’t say he was talking to the Apostles. I said he was explaining how the apostles, not to the Apostles.

He was explaining to the members of the church in Corinth how the Apostles are Ambassador’s of Christ’s work of reconciliation.

 

[WCH]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t that Psalm about the time David confessed his sin to Samuel…

Read it, and you’ll find your answer.

So I don’t think your personal interpretation is correct.

What Clement said isn’t my personal interpretation. Neither is it a personal interpretation when David says he confessed his sins to the Lord.

Does that help?

 

[Gonzo4Christ]

Oh, and check out 2 Corinthians 5: 17-20

So whoever is in Christ is a new creation: the old things have passed away; behold, new things have come. And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation*, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. So **we are ambasadors **for Christ, as if God were appealing through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

Sounds pretty clear to me. St. Paul is explaining how the Apostles are ambassadors of Christ’s work of reconciliation and that they share in the ministry of Christ and forgive sins in His name!!

You forgot V21! For our sake he made him to be sin(AI) who knew no sin, so that in him we might become(AJ) the righteousness of God.

What was the message of reconciliation? Throughout the New Testament, that message is repent and believe the gospel. We cry out to God for the forgiveness of sins. Being given the message of reconciliation could also mean that we as believers have also been given the ministry of reconciliation. “Go therefore and make disciples” was the command given by Christ to us all. God uses those who proclaim the gospel to reconcile sinners to himself.

 

[dharmasister]

Are we talking about the same verse?

I’m sorry, I’m causing confusion. In my earlier post (I believe #37) I first quoted James 5 which says to call a priest so that the sick can confess their sins. Then I quoted 2 Cor. 5 in which Paul tells the church in Corinth that they (the Apostles) are the ambassadors of Christ’s ministry of reconciliation.

This is a really good discussion, everyone, but I do not have the day off tomorrow so I must be off to bed. I can’t wait til tomorrow to pick back up and see what else has been said on the subject.

Goodnight and peace be with you all!!!

 

[Gonzo4Christ]

Dharmasister, where did you get that quote from your last post? I think I hear Protestants use it a lot. If it is from the Bible, I think it’s been changed because the only place in the Bible where the two words ‘faith’ and ‘alone’ are in the same sentence is James 2:24:

“See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

Misinterpreting this verse in james is quite common amoug Catholics. when you remove this verse from the rest of scripture it’s easy to get that we are not justified by faith alone but by faith and works.

When Paul says in Eph 2: 1-10, “And you were(B) dead in the trespasses and sins 2(C) in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following(D) the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in(E) the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in(F) the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body[a] and the mind, and(G) were by nature(H) children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4But** God, being(I) rich in mercy,(J) because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even(K) when we were dead in our trespasses,(L) made us alive together with Christ—(M) by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and(N) seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable(O) riches of his grace in(P) kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For(Q) by grace you have been saved(R) through faith. And this is(S) not your own doing;(T) it is the gift of God, 9(U) not a result of works,(V) so that no one may boast. 10For(W) we are his workmanship,(X) created in Christ Jesus(Y) for good works,(Z) which God prepared beforehand,(AA) that we should walk in them.”

Two choices. Either the scriptures are contradicting themselves, which they do not. Or there is a better way of interpretting the passage in James!

So is Paul or James right? Or are they both right?**

 

[Gonzo4Christ]

Actually, I was not quoting Gonzo4Christ who was paraphrasing Ephisians 2:8. I took it straight from the pages of my New American Bible and I also referenced my Catholic Apologetics Study Guide. They are an excellent resource for those investigating the Catholic Church. You can get them at just about any Catholic bookstore. There are 9 volumes covering many topics of the Catholic faith.

But I am confused about how anyone draws the conclusion of “faith alone” from either of those verses. To me it says just the opposite.

Let’s look at Romans 4:

Interesting how Paul uses Abraham (as does James) as an example when talking about works… Paul and James both quote Gen 15:6 where the scripture says “Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness”. Romans 4 :1-8 is the foundational [assage when talkinig about faith and works. " 1What then shall we say was gained by[a] Abraham,(A) our forefather according to the flesh? 2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but(B) not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say?(C) “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4Now(D) to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5And to the one who does not work but(E) believes in** him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness**, 6just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
7(F) “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not(G) count his sin.”

We are not saved by our works. We are saved FOR good works as it says i the Ep 2 passage.

Question… If we could be saved by our own righteouds deeds, why does the scripture call our riteousness “filthy rags”?

 

[Young_Thinker]

I was surprised by your quotes. (I think, therefore I am, and Freud?) They seem contrary to Christ’s teachings to me, am I wrong? But my answer may well seem that way to you.

Thank you for taking notice. I happened to like those particular quotations but do not agree everything that Descartes or Freud believed. There is truth in some of their ideas, though. As for your claim that Protestants are not saved through invincible ignorance, I would agree with for the most part. Their belief in the Trinity is basically the means of their salvation, even though they miss out on the truth and beauty of the Catholic Church. However, I will not undermine the power of the rite of reconciliation. While its effect is partly social, it is also a sacrament, so its affect cannot be just like a sense of relief after going to a psychotherapist. Actual grace is conferred through it. And likewise, mortal sins must always be confessed. Since very few Protestants have such a rite or believe that it is necessary, they cannot be exempt from it except perhaps through ignorance. In other words, God apparently “makes do” with their beliefs and intent.

 

[babylonsfalling]

This may be a simple question but it’s puzzled me recently.

If I was to commit a serious sin, I can go to confession to seek, and receive, forgiveness. But what do Protestants do in such an occasion, if anything at all? How can they be assured of God’s forgiveness for their sins?

Note - I’m not specifically looking for answers from Protestants themselves, but that would be interesting.

The non Catholics I know believe in what I call pre-forgiveness, a notion that when you’re saved, all sins are forgiven, past, present and future.

Where does this lead?
It leads to something I’ve NEVER heard a Catholic say, coming from a woman in a discussion about something she knew was a sin but wanted to do it anyway; she was about to divorce her third husband because he “won’t change”.

Exact words here regarding what she knew to be a sin…"It doesn’t matter because I’m already forgiven!