Catholics, if you came to believe that the resurrection did not happen, what would you do?

[CrossofChrist]

Dear CrossofChrist - There are Many ways of thinking about this event and it significance as it also ties into the “Return”.

To keep an open mind on this subject may allow for “Stronger Faith”. If some of the comments so far in this post is an indication of what a “Set View” would encourage some to do, then!!!

God Bless and Regards Tony

Certainly there is an eschatological element with the Resurrection. Yet leaving out the physical aspect of the Resurrection leaves out the physical aspect of man–you just can’t do it.

In addition, there can be no stronger faith than faith in the fullness of the truth that God reveals fully only through the Catholic Church. There is no reason to be open to an incorrect interpretation of this historic and supernatural Event when the truth has been revealed which no door can shut.

 

[tonyfish58]

Certainly there is an eschatological element with the Resurrection. Yet leaving out the physical aspect of the Resurrection leaves out the physical aspect of man–you just can’t do it.

In addition, there can be no stronger faith than faith in the fullness of the truth that God reveals fully only through the Catholic Church. There is no reason to be open to an incorrect interpretation of this historic and supernatural Event when the truth has been revealed which no door can shut.

Dear friend you would have to rip my heart from my chest to take my Love of Christ.

Nothing is Impossible, but…only if WE make it so - God Bless your Faith and Regards Tony

 

[tonyfish58]

Of course, which is why I believe in the Resurrection.

As do I

God Bless and Regrards Tony

 

[SteveVH]

As do I

God Bless and Regrards Tony

Interesting. In the interest of full disclosure, would you mind explaining just what you believe about the resurrection? That might be helpful for those not familiar with the Baha’i faith.

Thanks.

Steve

 

[tonyfish58]

Interesting. In the interest of full disclosure, would you mind explaining just what you believe about the resurrection? That might be helpful for those not familiar with the Baha’i faith. Thanks.Steve

Dear SteveVH - Not going there my Friend

God Bless and regards Tony

 

[SteveVH]

Dear SteveVH - Not going there my Friend

God Bless and regards Tony

Yeah, didn’t think you would. If you did you it would become evident that when you say you believe in the resurrection that you are speaking of something completely different than what a Christian means when he uses the same term.

 

[Servant19]

Certainly there is an eschatological element with the Resurrection. Yet leaving out the physical aspect of the Resurrection leaves out the physical aspect of man–you just can’t do it.

St. Paul did exactly that, dear friend

There is only reference to a spiritual resurrection, and in fact opposing a physical resurrection, in the entirety of Paul’s Letters.

St. Peter too:

Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit…

1Peter 3:18

Put to death in the flesh
Raised in the Spirit, as opposed to the flesh, which He was put to death in…

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[CrossofChrist]

St. Paul did exactly that, dear friend

There is only reference to a spiritual resurrection, and in fact opposing a physical resurrection, in the entirety of Paul’s Letters.

St. Peter too:

Put to death in the flesh
Raised in the Spirit, as opposed to the flesh, which He was put to death in…

.

Yet St. Paul says our bodies will be raised imperishable, will be transformed. In fact, the entire idea of resurrection is incomprehensible to consider apart from a body, including for the ancient Jews. It was in fact the Gnostics,far away in thought from the Jews, that tried to do away with the idea of a body of Christ because it didn’t seem credible to them in the face of a pagan Greek society.

I’ll quote N.T Wright (taken from ntwrightpage.com/Wright_Jesus_Resurrection.htm which is also very informative and I encourage EVERYBODY WHO COMES ACROSS THIS POST TO READ THAT LINK!!! ):

A few more remarks about the narratives themselves. Matthew’s story is often seen as anti-Jewish apologetic — not surprisingly, because he himself tells us that he is countering a story current among non-Christian Jews of his day. But even if Matthew does represent a later polemic, the debate itself — that some say Jesus’ body was stolen, and others say it wasn’t — bears witness to my more fundamental point, that in the first century ‘resurrection’ wasn’t about exaltation, spiritual presence, a sense of forgiveness, or divinization; it was about bodies and tombs. If someone had been able to say ‘oh, don’t you understand? When I say “resurrection”, all I mean is that Jesus is in heaven and he is my Lord, that I’ve had a new sense of God’s love and forgiveness,’ the dangerous debate about tombs, guards, angels and bodies could have been abandoned with a sigh of relief all round.

There’s no way to speak of a body without a body.

 

[Servant19]

Yet St. Paul says our bodies will be raised imperishable, will be transformed.

Can you show where he says it will be transformed please?

He says there is a natural body AND there is a spiritual body, not one transforms into another (1Cor 15)

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[SteveVH]

Can you show where he says it will be transformed please?

He says there is a natural body AND there is a spiritual body, not one transforms into another (1Cor 15)

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"…in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.…” (1 Cor 15:53)

 

[CrossofChrist]

Can you show where he says it will be transformed please?

51 Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. (1 Corinthians 15:51-52 RSV-CE)

FWIW, here’s merriam-webster on transform: to change (something) completely and usually in a good way

 

[Servant19]

51 Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. (1 Corinthians 15:51-52 RSV-CE)

FWIW, here’s merriam-webster on transform: to change (something) completely and usually in a good way

Ah yes ok thankyou

So we will be changed from a natural perishable body into a spiritual, imperishable body. How is that a physical resurrection? It sounds like a transformation, not a resurrection to me.

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[CrossofChrist]

Ah yes ok thankyou

So we will be changed from a natural perishable body into a spiritual, imperishable body. How is that a physical resurrection? It sounds like a transformation, not a resurrection to me.

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The Catechism:

The condition of Christ’s risen humanity

645 By means of touch and the sharing of a meal, the risen Jesus establishes direct contact with his disciples. He invites them in this way to recognize that he is not a ghost and above all to verify that the risen body in which he appears to them is the same body that had been tortured and crucified, for it still bears the traces of his Passion.509 Yet at the same time this authentic, real body possesses the new properties of a glorious body: not limited by space and time but able to be present how and when he wills; for Christ’s humanity can no longer be confined to earth, and belongs henceforth only to the Father’s divine realm.510 For this reason too the risen Jesus enjoys the sovereign freedom of appearing as he wishes: in the guise of a gardener or in other forms familiar to his disciples, precisely to awaken their faith.511

646 Christ’s Resurrection was not a return to earthly life, as was the case with the raisings from the dead that he had performed before Easter: Jairus’ daughter, the young man of Naim, Lazarus. These actions were miraculous events, but the persons miraculously raised returned by Jesus’ power to ordinary earthly life. At some particular moment they would die again. Christ’s Resurrection is essentially different. In his risen body he passes from the state of death to another life beyond time and space. At Jesus’ Resurrection his body is filled with the power of the Holy Spirit: he shares the divine life in his glorious state, so that St. Paul can say that Christ is “the man of heaven”.512

The Resurrection as transcendent event

647 O truly blessed Night, sings the Exultet of the Easter Vigil, which alone deserved to know the time and the hour when Christ rose from the realm of the dead!513 But no one was an eyewitness to Christ’s Resurrection and no evangelist describes it. No one can say how it came about physically. Still less was its innermost essence, his passing over to another life, perceptible to the senses. Although the Resurrection was an historical event that could be verified by the sign of the empty tomb and by the reality of the apostles’ encounters with the risen Christ, still it remains at the very heart of the mystery of faith as something that transcends and surpasses history. This is why the risen Christ does not reveal himself to the world, but to his disciples, "to those who came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses to the people."514

Here’s the section to the general resurrection of all Christians: scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a11.htm

 

[Servant19]

The Catechism:

The condition of Christ’s risen humanity

645 By means of touch and the sharing of a meal, the risen Jesus establishes direct contact with his disciples. He invites them in this way to recognize that he is not a ghost and above all to verify that the risen body in which he appears to them is the same body that had been tortured and crucified, for it still bears the traces of his Passion.509 Yet at the same time this authentic, real body possesses the new properties of a glorious body: not limited by space and time but able to be present how and when he wills; for Christ’s humanity can no longer be confined to earth, and belongs henceforth only to the Father’s divine realm.510 For this reason too the risen Jesus enjoys the sovereign freedom of appearing as he wishes: in the guise of a gardener or in other forms familiar to his disciples, precisely to awaken their faith.511

646 Christ’s Resurrection was not a return to earthly life, as was the case with the raisings from the dead that he had performed before Easter: Jairus’ daughter, the young man of Naim, Lazarus. These actions were miraculous events, but the persons miraculously raised returned by Jesus’ power to ordinary earthly life. At some particular moment they would die again. Christ’s Resurrection is essentially different. In his risen body he passes from the state of death to another life beyond time and space. At Jesus’ Resurrection his body is filled with the power of the Holy Spirit: he shares the divine life in his glorious state, so that St. Paul can say that Christ is “the man of heaven”.512

The Resurrection as transcendent event

647 O truly blessed Night, sings the Exultet of the Easter Vigil, which alone deserved to know the time and the hour when Christ rose from the realm of the dead!513 But no one was an eyewitness to Christ’s Resurrection and no evangelist describes it. No one can say how it came about physically. Still less was its innermost essence, his passing over to another life, perceptible to the senses. Although the Resurrection was an historical event that could be verified by the sign of the empty tomb and by the reality of the apostles’ encounters with the risen Christ, still it remains at the very heart of the mystery of faith as something that transcends and surpasses history. This is why the risen Christ does not reveal himself to the world, but to his disciples, "to those who came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses to the people."514

Here’s the section to the general resurrection of all Christians: scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a11.htm

Thankyou dear friend

This clearly reads to me that it is a “transformation” rather than a resurrection. Jairus’ daughter etc all were resurrected from the dead, but went on to live a physical existence, and later died again.

Jesus was a “man of heaven”. Heaven is not a physical place, and Jesus, unlike Jairus’ daugther, is alive and well today

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[tonyfish58]

Yeah, didn’t think you would. If you did you it would become evident that when you say you believe in the resurrection that you are speaking of something completely different than what a Christian means when he uses the same term.

SteveVH - The actual reason is if I give you a straight answer as to what a Baha’i Really believes, that is with no beating around the corner stuff, when I do it appears I can no longer Post and get Brownie Points Deducted

Thus I say my time is limited on CAF. As I do prefer to get to the point and this aspect is jumping out from me more and more! - God bless you all

May Life be goo to you all - Regards Tony

 

[Gertabelle]

SteveVH - The actual reason is if I give you a straight answer as to what a Baha’i Really believes, that is with no beating around the corner stuff, when I do it appears I can no longer Post and get Brownie Points Deducted

Thus I say my time is limited on CAF. As I do prefer to get to the point and this aspect is jumping out from me more and more! - God bless you all

May Life be goo to you all - Regards Tony

It is my understanding that you are free to explain your beliefs here. You are not allowed, however, to try to convert other members to your faith.

Gertie

 

[Gertabelle]

Thankyou dear friend

This clearly reads to me that it is a “transformation” rather than a resurrection. Jairus’ daughter etc all were resurrected from the dead, but went on to live a physical existence, and later died again.

Jesus was a “man of heaven”. Heaven is not a physical place, and Jesus, unlike Jairus’ daugther, is alive and well today

.

Well, those are your beliefs, no doubt. But don’t expect us Catholics here to just take your word for it.

Our belief is that Jesus AND Jairus’ daughter are both “alive and well.” The difference is that Jesus is alive with His glorified body, and Jairus’ daughter is not yet reunited with hers (at least from where we sit in time – eternity is without time).

As Catholics, we also believe that heaven IS a real place. I understand that this is contrary to your beliefs.

Gertie

 

[SteveVH]

Thankyou dear friend

This clearly reads to me that it is a “transformation” rather than a resurrection.

These are the type of comments that we find baffling. Even when you are shown in clear, precise language what the Church believes you deny that this is really what we believe.

"…the risen body in which he appears to them is the same body that had been tortured and crucified

“…Christ’s Resurrection was not a return to earthly life, as was the case with the raisings from the dead that he had performed before Easter…”

“…Christ’s Resurrection is essentially different.”

“In his risen body he passes from the state of death to another life beyond time and space.”

“At Jesus’ Resurrection his body is filled with the power of the Holy Spirit:”

How can you say that this “clearly reads to me that it is a “transformation” rather than a resurrection”?

 

[Servant19]

Well, those are your beliefs, no doubt. But don’t expect us Catholics here to just take your word for it.

Our belief is that Jesus AND Jairus’ daughter are both “alive and well.” The difference is that Jesus is alive with His glorified body, and Jairus’ daughter is not yet reunited with hers (at least from where we sit in time – eternity is without time).

As Catholics, we also believe that heaven IS a real place. I understand that this is contrary to your beliefs.

Gertie

None of this is contrary to what I believe dear friend

I guess our understanding of what a glorified body is different. I personally cannot see how any flesh and bones can inherit the Kingdom.

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[Servant19]

These are the type of comments that we find baffling. Even when you are shown in clear, precise language what the Church believes you deny that this is really what we believe.

"…the risen body in which he appears to them is the same body that had been tortured and crucified

"…Christ’s Resurrection was not a return to earthly life, as was the case with the raisings from the dead that he had performed before Easter…"

"…Christ’s Resurrection is essentially different."

"In his risen body he passes from the state of death to another life beyond time and space."

"At Jesus’ Resurrection his body is filled with the power of the Holy Spirit:"

How can you say that this “clearly reads to me that it is a “transformation” rather than a resurrection”?

Hi Steve,

I would like to put it out there here and now, that given my recent study on the resurrection and some of the lesser known materials from the Baha’i Writings, I am not really sure where m beliefs are regarding the resurrection.

With this in mind, I would like you to know that I am not pushing any agendas here.

I am simply trying to reconcile common Catholic understanding with the teachings of the Church and the Letters of Paul and Peter.

They all seem to contradict in some aspects.

Peter clearly says Jesus was raised “in the Spirit”…this is a contradiction to common Catholic understanding.

I guess I am struggling to understand how this contradiction can be reconciled.



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