Catholics in American History

[BillP]

katewithak:

As far as never experiencing discrimination in the South- come on Bill, are you pulling the wool over the eyes of this Arkie?
Look, first hand. My Mother grew up in Hot Springs and Little Rock. My grandpa was born in Redfield. My mom was expelled from Central High School 8 years before the fact because she wrote an English essay that was pro desegregation.

And that was related to her being Catholic how? By one ignorant comment from a High School principal? In 1949?

I’ll say it again. I was born in 1963 at Ft Benning and grew up all over Ga, NC, VA and AL and have never experienced prejudice because I was Catholic. Just my experience.

katewithak:

True story, Bill. the South is not all mint juleps and magnolias, and forward thinking founding fathers.

I don’t doubt your experience. And I don’t believe I ever characterized the South or the Founding Fathers that way. I carry no brief for the “Moonlight and Magnolias” of the “old South”. They were a backward, ignorant, vicious and bigotted people whose pride lead to the destruction of their way of life and they threw away an entire generation of their young men while destroying it. The modern South is a much better place.

 

[jim1130]

BillP:

Here is my problem with it as a Catholic. The President of the US is charged with

According to the Vatican all Catholics have an obligation to act in accordance with the teachings of the Catholic Church at all times. Sometimes a President is going to have to decide which of these priorities is more important to him. I think the voters have a right to know his views on that issue. I also think the non-Catholic voters of the US (76%) have a right to demand a President who will give the Law of the US his first loyalty over the requirements of the Catholic religion. I believe the Catholics get this wuestion because we are the only religion that makes such an issue with Obedience and Infallibility.

One can easily imiagine a coircumstance where the Pope or a Bishop would feel called to give orders to a sitting president or threaten him with religious sanction. In fact several Bishops saw fit to issue demands and threats to several U.S. Senators as recently as last fall. I can imagine no other Church or Denomination attempting to do that.

jim1130:

The anti-popery of the 19th century is prevalent in this day and age.

We are simply going to have to disagree on this. We must live in different worlds. You see something as prevalent that I have never experienced.

Yes, we see differently. Just understand that I am not wrapping myself in it and wailing, grinding my teeth, or doing anything to act like a victim. Just visit some non-Catholic sites to see the mis-representation of doctrine and personal views of some toward Catholics.

 

[BillP]

jim1130:

Yes, we see differently. Just understand that I am not wrapping myself in it and wailing, grinding my teeth, or doing anything to act like a victim. Just visit some non-Catholic sites to see the mis-representation of doctrine and personal views of some toward Catholics.

I understand. I guess I’m just trying to point out that if the Church wants to give explicit directions to speciffic individuals in particular cases they have to realize that will compromise the ability of Catholics to win political office in a country that’s 76% non- Catholic. And antagonize the majority who will inevitably feel like the religion is being forced down their throats.

 

[jim1130]

BillP:

I understand. I guess I’m just trying to point out that if the Church wants to give explicit directions to speciffic individuals in particular cases they have to realize that will compromise the ability of Catholics to win political office in a country that’s 76% non- Catholic. And antagonize the majority who will inevitably feel like the religion is being forced down their throats.

That is true. You may not have faced any anti-Catholic prejuiduce (though I am surprised in NC because the Catholic population is 3%) and mine is minor, to say the least, but it is a shame that there are those who feed misinformation that leads to questions such as “If elected President, will you answer to the Pope?” It doesn’t help us, either, that we have Catholics such as Ted Kennedy and John Kerry.

 

[katewithak]

jim1130:

That is true. You may not have faced any anti-Catholic prejuiduce (though I am surprised in NC because the Catholic population is 3%) and mine is minor, to say the least, but it is a shame that there are those who feed misinformation that leads to questions such as “If elected President, will you answer to the Pope?” It doesn’t help us, either, that we have Catholics such as Ted Kennedy and John Kerry.

I think it is an excellent question. It is asking, where do your loyalties lie, with the Pope or the U.S. government? I use that always as my criteria with Catholic candidates who declare Catholicism part of the reason I should vote for them. If their voting record is not Catholic, I won’t vote for them. The office of President does not leave an indelible mark on the soul, but Confirmation does. Obviously, if he is Catholic but anti Catholicism, he will lead the country confusedly as he is confused. Sooo- I do not vote for anti catholic catholic candidates. Thanks to our Protestant founding fathers, I have that right. And so I end up voting for the Protestant anyway. They do not have to answer to the Pope and no one thinks to ask them that question. Too bad, but so it is.

 

[Andrew_11]

I find it suspicous that there has only been one Catholic president in US history; and we all know what happened to him.

 

[Church_Militant]

BillP:

How?

Read it here and there have been other such incidents.

 

[BillP]

Church Militant:

Read it here and there have been other such incidents.

This is all you’ve got? THIS:

…I went diddy-bopping into a meeting one day with that in hand and wasn’t in there a hot minute when some guy jumped my case.

“Are you Catholic?’ he asked me. “Well…yeah”, says I, (since technically I was). “You Catholics worship Mary.” “Say what?” I responded. “You Catholics worship Mary. You pray to her.” “Look, I know I been outta the church for a long time, and we do pray to her but we DON”T worship her and no Catholic that knows his ear from his elbow would ever even SAY such a crazy thing. We worship God alone. End of story, Dude.”

He persisted so severely that I finally told him that I’d get some books, check it out and get back to him with what I found out, and that if he was right then I would never enter a Catholic Church ever again…

This is the rampant “anti-Catholic” discrimination? Some guy ignorantly questioned what he thought was one of your beliefs in a rude fashion? No getting fired from your job? no getting evicted from your house? No being barred from school? No night riders with torchs and bullwhips? Not even fisticuffs or foul language?

 

[BillP]

jim1130:

… misinformation that leads to questions such as “If elected President, will you answer to the Pope?”

Why is that “misinformation”? I actually consider it a valid question. Take yesterday’s SCOTUS decision in re Oregon’s Assissted Suicide Law. The majority of Oregon voters have voted for the law twice. Three of the four Catholics on the Court voted to strike down the Law (the Catholic position notwithstanding U.S. Constitutional Law). the fourth, Justice Kennedy voted to uphold the Law. Should he be censured by the Church for publicly dissentiing from the Church’s teaching? SHould he be denied Communion? I submit that there are a large number of Catholic Bishops who would advocate doing just that… And as long as there are the American people have the right to ask that question of Catholic candidates.

 

[Alfie]

Church Militant:

Read it here and there have been other such incidents.

I read your post about reverting to the Catholic church but where is your testimony? I did not read anything in your post where you stated that you repented of your sins and accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior.People who are really saved are convicted of their sins by the Holy Spirit. They know that they are sinners and that their sin offends God and that they deserve to go to hell if they do not turn away from those sins.

 

[Alfie]

katewithak:

I think it is an excellent question. It is asking, where do your loyalties lie, with the Pope or the U.S. government? I use that always as my criteria with Catholic candidates who declare Catholicism part of the reason I should vote for them. If their voting record is not Catholic, I won’t vote for them. The office of President does not leave an indelible mark on the soul, but Confirmation does. Obviously, if he is Catholic but anti Catholicism, he will lead the country confusedly as he is confused. Sooo- I do not vote for anti catholic catholic candidates. Thanks to our Protestant founding fathers, I have that right. And so I end up voting for the Protestant anyway. They do not have to answer to the Pope and no one thinks to ask them that question. Too bad, but so it is.

I would like to know why the majority of Catholics did not support Pat Buchanan when he ran for president? I am a protestant who voted for him in the primaries and I supported him financially both times he ran for president.

 

[jim1130]

BillP:

Why is that “misinformation”? I actually consider it a valid question. Take yesterday’s SCOTUS decision in re Oregon’s Assissted Suicide Law. The majority of Oregon voters have voted for the law twice. Three of the four Catholics on the Court voted to strike down the Law (the Catholic position notwithstanding U.S. Constitutional Law). the fourth, Justice Kennedy voted to uphold the Law. Should he be censured by the Church for publicly dissentiing from the Church’s teaching? SHould he be denied Communion? I submit that there are a large number of Catholic Bishops who would advocate doing just that… And as long as there are the American people have the right to ask that question of Catholic candidates.

Misinformation such as “If elected President, would you answer to the Pope?” If honestly and sincerely asked, it is legitimate, but given the circumstances how it is presented I do not think it has been, traditionally, a positive question. Why can’t it be asked “How would your religious values impact your office?” For some, the image of the Pope is not positive. Again, visit non-Catholic Web site discussion boards to see for yourself opinions others hold of the Pope, Mary, The Vatican, etc.

For me, I do not answer to the Pope; I answer to 2,000 years of teaching, not necessarily the Pope directly, who is our Vicar of Christ. You can answer “no” to the Pope, but “yes” to the Catholic Church (we have the Magesterium, sacred tradition, and scripture as our guides).

I am for the separation of Church and State because, truthfully, what Church would be the representative body in the US? Historically, the Protestant Church has been the Church of the US, but then the division among Protestant Churches asks “Which specific Protestant Church is representative of the US?” We do not want a theocracy like Islam and even in Islam there is dissension among the various practices.

As for the assisted suicide: I disagree with the Supreme Court’s ruling and the Oregon voters. The assisted suicide subscribes to the culture of death prevalent in today’s US. Should Justice Kennedy, who upheld the Oregon law, be censured for dissenting? I think so; I believe it is fair to express disappointment over a decision that is contrary to his Catholic position (I am not sure of this Catholic-ness and his decision may have been the result of much soul-searching trying to balance faith with state so I am not going to judge him, although mentioning displeasure may be interpreted as such).

Basically, I do not take the stance that freedom is an absolute. Parameters need to be established and defined. I just see an eroding of these parameters over time. Assisted suicide, abortion…may as well move to the Netherlands.

 

[BillP]

Alfie:

I would like to know why the majority of Catholics did not support Pat Buchanan when he ran for president? I am a protestant who voted for him in the primaries and I supported him financially both times he ran for president.

Well speaking for one Catholic, I didn’t support him because I perceived him as xenophobic and isolationist on matters of immigration, trade and national security. I am also uncomfortable with what I perceive to be his lack of committment to the separation of Church and State.

 

[BillP]

jim1130:

visit non-Catholic Web site discussion boards to see for yourself opinions others hold of the Pope, Mary, The Vatican, etc.

I’m not trying to be ugly here, but I honestly couldn’t care less what habitues of non-Catholic websites think about the Catholic Church. Maybe I’m just too lazy, or don’t have the patience to correct their impressions.

jim1130:

For me, I do not answer to the Pope; I answer to 2,000 years of teaching, not necessarily the Pope directly, who is our Vicar of Christ. You can answer “no” to the Pope, but “yes” to the Catholic Church (we have the Magesterium, sacred tradition, and scripture as our guides).

That’s an interesting position that I don’t necessarily disagree with, but then one has the thorny issue of Papal Infallibility and obedience to deal with. I also believe that your position will leave you open to the charge of being a “cafeteria Catholic” or “Catholic in Name Only” by many of our more Orthodox bretheren, many of whom inhabit this board.

jim1130:

As for the assisted suicide: I disagree with the Supreme Court’s ruling and the Oregon voters. The assisted suicide subscribes to the culture of death prevalent in today’s US. …I believe it is fair to express disappointment over a decision that is contrary to his Catholic position (I am not sure of this Catholic-ness and his decision may have been the result of much soul-searching trying to balance faith with state so I am not going to judge him, although mentioning displeasure may be interpreted as such)

First let me point out that I too am troubled by the SCOTUS ruling. But my disappointment (and I suspect, subject to correction, yours) with Justice Kennedy’s opinion is based on my Catholic religious beliefs rather than an opinion on the actual legal issue before the court. Legally, I think the ruling was absolutely correct, thus I think it was the correct decision for Justice Kennedy to make. After reading their opinions, I also think Justices Scalia, Thomas and Roberts have violated their oaths of office by letting the teachings of the Church trump their committment to U.S. Constitutional Law.

I guess I can sum up my position thusly, The 76% of Americans who aren’t Catholic are entitled to Supreme Court Justices who make decisions based on the Laws of the United States of America, not the Laws of the Catholic Church.

jim1130:

Should Justice Kennedy, who upheld the Oregon law, be censured for dissenting? I think so; .

The instant the Church censures Justice Kennedy for a decision it ensures that their will not be another Catholic Supreme Court Justice in the foreseeable future.

jim1130:

Basically, I do not take the stance that freedom is an absolute. Parameters need to be established and defined. I just see an eroding of these parameters over time. Assisted suicide, abortion…may as well move to the Netherlands.

We, as a secular society have established and defined our parameters. Many of those parameters are at variance with the teachings of the Catholic Church. I don’t have a problem with that. I follow the teachings of the Church to the best of my ability. I don’t understand the propensity the Church seems to have to use secular power to outlaw sin.

 

[jim1130]

BillP:

I’m not trying to be ugly here, but I honestly couldn’t care less what habitues of non-Catholic websites think about the Catholic Church. Maybe I’m just too lazy, or don’t have the patience to correct their impressions.

Honestly, most think what they want to think, not allowing facts to get in the way of their opinions, and even trying to correct them is an effort in futility.

That’s an interesting position that I don’t necessarily disagree with, but then one has the thorny issue of Papal Infallibility and obedience to deal with. I also believe that your position will leave you open to the charge of being a “cafeteria Catholic” or “Catholic in Name Only” by many of our more Orthodox bretheren, many of whom inhabit this board.

I believe 100% in the infallibility of the Pope

First let me point out that I too am troubled by the SCOTUS ruling. But my disappointment (and I suspect, subject to correction, yours) with Justice Kennedy’s opinion is based on my Catholic religious beliefs rather than an opinion on the actual legal issue before the court. Legally, I think the ruling was absolutely correct, thus I think it was the correct decision for Justice Kennedy to make. After reading their opinions, I also think Justices Scalia, Thomas and Roberts have violated their oaths of office by letting the teachings of the Church trump their committment to U.S. Constitutional Law.

I guess I can sum up my position thusly, The 76% of Americans who aren’t Catholic are entitled to Supreme Court Justices who make decisions based on the Laws of the United States of America, not the Laws of the Catholic Church.

The instant the Church censures Justice Kennedy for a decision it ensures that their will not be another Catholic Supreme Court Justice in the foreseeable future.

We, as a secular society have established and defined our parameters. Many of those parameters are at variance with the teachings of the Catholic Church. I don’t have a problem with that. I follow the teachings of the Church to the best of my ability. I don’t understand the propensity the Church seems to have to use secular power to outlaw sin.

 

[jim1130]

BillP:

I’m not trying to be ugly here, but I honestly couldn’t care less what habitues of non-Catholic websites think about the Catholic Church. Maybe I’m just too lazy, or don’t have the patience to correct their impressions.

People think what they want to think, not allowing facts to get in the way of opinions, so it is often an effort in futility.

BillP:

That’s an interesting position that I don’t necessarily disagree with, but then one has the thorny issue of Papal Infallibility and obedience to deal with. I also believe that your position will leave you open to the charge of being a “cafeteria Catholic” or “Catholic in Name Only” by many of our more Orthodox bretheren, many of whom inhabit this board.

I believe 100% in Papal infallibility so I hope that people do not misintpret. It is the infallibility of the Pope that allows me to follow the Magesterium tradition, and scripture.

BillP:

First let me point out that I too am troubled by the SCOTUS ruling. But my disappointment (and I suspect, subject to correction, yours) with Justice Kennedy’s opinion is based on my Catholic religious beliefs rather than an opinion on the actual legal issue before the court. Legally, I think the ruling was absolutely correct, thus I think it was the correct decision for Justice Kennedy to make. After reading their opinions, I also think Justices Scalia, Thomas and Roberts have violated their oaths of office by letting the teachings of the Church trump their committment to U.S. Constitutional Law.

I do not disagree with you that, legally, the ruling was correct, but, as a Catholic, I am disappointed with the ruling.

BillP:

I guess I can sum up my position thusly, The 76% of Americans who aren’t Catholic are entitled to Supreme Court Justices who make decisions based on the Laws of the United States of America, not the Laws of the Catholic Church.

I would suspect that some people, even though not Catholic, would like it if some in influential positions asserted their religious beliefs, but then that would open up to extreme religious beliefs and where do you draw the line, right? I just do not want to sit idly by and bob my head like the nodder on a dashboard.

BillP:

The instant the Church censures Justice Kennedy for a decision it ensures that their will not be another Catholic Supreme Court Justice in the foreseeable future.

Okay, I see your point.

BillP:

We, as a secular society have established and defined our parameters. Many of those parameters are at variance with the teachings of the Catholic Church. I don’t have a problem with that. I follow the teachings of the Church to the best of my ability. I don’t understand the propensity the Church seems to have to use secular power to outlaw sin.

I do not think we can legislate morality because look how well prohibition went over. I just do not want the ACLU running the country and I do not want any outrage I may express called intolerance, etc.

 

[Subrosa]

Alfie:

I would like to know why the majority of Catholics did not support Pat Buchanan when he ran for president? I am a protestant who voted for him in the primaries and I supported him financially both times he ran for president.

What’s it all about, Alfie?

Have you ever compared the septuagint and hebrew scriptures? Here, try this…
geocities.com/r_grant_jo…t/spexecsum.htm

Have you ever heard of the Jehovah’s Witnesses? They went ahead and wrote thier own version of the Bible that fit’s thier own teachings. They use in the New World Translation the Hebrew scripture, just like you.

But check this out…
watchtower.org/library/w…/article_01.htm

If this very highly heretical religion can admit it, why can’t you?

Oh, and by the way, Jerome was a Catholic priest and while he did not want to use the “apocrypha”, he indeed included them in the Vulgate bible because he found that these books were truly used by the apostles in thier teachings. Today he is known as Saint Jerome. ewtn.com/library/MARY/JEROME.htm

I can’t say that using the hebrew scripture is a bad thing. I will say it is a good thing. But, the reality is that the apostles used the Greek version called the septuagint, which includes the “apocrypha”. If they were good enough for the apostles, why aren’t they good enough for you?

Christ be with you,
Subrosa

 

[Church_Militant]

Alfie:

I read your post about reverting to the Catholic church but where is your testimony? I did not read anything in your post where you stated that you repented of your sins and accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior.People who are really saved are convicted of their sins by the Holy Spirit. They know that they are sinners and that their sin offends God and that they deserve to go to hell if they do not turn away from those sins.

I guess you can’t see things that aren’t spelled out for you in your personally preferred terminology, so I’ll post the quote for you here and we’ll see if anyone else here has your problem.

I had left the Church at about age 17 because I was on drugs and then “got saved”

at a Campus Life Bible study that was run by a very cool minister. I had always gone to church but never really taken it seriously or read the Bible, even though it was in the house and other members of my family read it. The lack was not in the church (I see that now) but within me. I began to read the Bible for the first time in my life…(the epistle of St. James) and it really hit home. I have always believed in God, but I saw that that was not enough. I did alright for a couple of years, got married and we moved here to Florida, where I stayed out of establishment churches because I figured they were all messed up and did my thing as a “Jesus freak”, witnessing on the streets and handing out Christian underground papers and tracts, and “witnessing” to anyone who would listen. Now… are you gonna judge me because my terminology does not match yours?
I am very much born again.
Pax tecum,

 

[Church_Militant]

BillP:

This is all you’ve got? THIS:

This is the rampant “anti-Catholic” discrimination? Some guy ignorantly questioned what he thought was one of your beliefs in a rude fashion? No getting fired from your job? no getting evicted from your house? No being barred from school? No night riders with torchs and bullwhips? Not even fisticuffs or foul language?

Y’know, you need to back off…

I left out the parts about the one guy threatening me and the foul language remarks. I don’t tell everything, and there is quite a bit more that is none of your business. Suffice it to say that I know what I’m talking about.

It’s not just ignorance, it’s the lousy attitudes & misinformation that lead so many people to attack our faith.

When I was in elementary school I was told about a local priest who was shot to death on the porch of his rectory because he married a couple where one of them wasn’t a Catholic.

If you haven’t experienced it then fine and Glory Be To God, but don’t try tell the rest of us that it doesn’t exist because of that.
Pax tecum,

 

[Church_Militant]

I’m not trying to be ugly here, but I honestly couldn’t care less what habitues of non-Catholic websites think about the Catholic Church. Maybe I’m just too lazy, or don’t have the patience to correct their impressions.

I think maybe you are. I hate to link this garbage, but maybe you need a wake-up call. Fresh-Hope’s “Just For Catholics” read-only forum and if you really wanna see one of the very worst anti-Catholic forums around then register (you probably have to) and look at their “Apologetics” forum. (Important note: I DO NOT AT ALL recommend that any of you bother to post there. It is so bad & such a waste of time that most all of the Catholics that were there [Myself included] are currently boycotting them. This is absolutely not a call for a board swarm and you are better off not to post there…ever.)

I left out the parts about the one guy threatening me and the foul language remarks. I don’t tell everything, and there is quite a bit more that is none of your business. Suffice it to say that I know what I’m talking about.

It’s not just ignorance, it’s the lousy attitudes & misinformation that lead so many people to attack our faith.

BillP:

This is all you’ve got? THIS:

This is the rampant “anti-Catholic” discrimination? Some guy ignorantly questioned what he thought was one of your beliefs in a rude fashion? No getting fired from your job? no getting evicted from your house? No being barred from school? No night riders with torchs and bullwhips? Not even fisticuffs or foul language?

When I was in elementary school I was told about a local priest who was shot to death on the porch of his rectory because he married a couple where one of them wasn’t a Catholic.

If you haven’t experienced it then fine and Glory Be To God, but don’t try tell the rest of us that it doesn’t exist because of that.
Pax tecum,