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notredame_999
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would a Catholic married couple living in China committ a mortal sin by using artificial contraception? I have read forced abortions are pretty common by the government.
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Alexander_Smith
Guest
This is why we should pray hard for Catholics in China! They cannot submit to a forced abortion, and they cannot use artificial birth control.
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notredame_999
Guest
So basically after the birth of their first child they have to “live as brother and sister?” It makes me sick considering how much US consumer greed at Wal-Mart contributes to this evil regime. Thanks international bankers.
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SuscipeMeDomine
Guest
One of the conditions for mortal sin is that you have to consent to the action. People being forced into actions by their government are not committing sins of their own free will.
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Onegin
Guest
Not just Wal-Mart but many large companies all over the world are outsourcing large-scale production to China, even ones that formerly used to advertise as carrying specifically domestic products.
On the flip-side, China won’t buy hardly anything from either the US or the UK which is kind of telling. And this is even glossing over the treatment of the workers and the quality and safety issues that many Chinese products are known to have.
/end rant
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LilyM
Guest
Depends on what sort of ‘force’ we’re talking about, I suppose.
Are these poor women LITERALLY being physically or otherwise compelled to abort - to such a degree that it more or less completely overrides their free will not to do so?
I can’t imagine how that could happen short of pretty drastic circumstances. I’m talking an RU 486 pill were forcibly shoved down their throats, or given them under the pretext that it was a vitamin or something else, or they were literally strapped onto the surgical table, or told they were having some other operation, or something.
My parents lived in a Communist regime in Eastern Europe - people there who weren’t communist, and who openly practiced Catholicism as my parents did, were treated very harshly indeed.
My parents, however, had the free will to leave the country, and exercised it - even though they had to escape via a third country, as otherwise they would’ve needed permission to leave permanently which the government wouldn’t have granted.
I don’t think, under those circumstances, they would’ve been justified in staying and co-operating with immoral laws.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
You know what they said, God made the heavens and the earth, the oceans and the land, the plants and the animals and humans. Everything else is made in ChinaNot just Wal-Mart but many large companies all over the world are outsourcing large-scale production to China, even ones that formerly used to advertise as carrying specifically domestic products.
On the flip-side, China won’t buy hardly anything from either the US or the UK which is kind of telling. And this is even glossing over the treatment of the workers and the quality and safety issues that many Chinese products are known to have.
/end rant
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MarkThompson
Guest
Count yourself lucky that your imagination is not capable of going that far. The Chinese certainly are.
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fermat
Guest
I don’t see a strong connection. NFP would be a perfectly acceptable option here. Granted, the education required to master this may be difficult to come by, but that would be the norm. Failing that, if a couple really does not want to have kids and really don’t know what else to do, living as brother and sister would be acceptable.
I would also challenge you on this statement. I work for an international bank and we do much more good than harm. International banking would be far off this topic though. If you want to start a new thread, I’d be happy to jump in there.
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Alexander_Smith
Guest
Like other users have said, unless the government is physically forcing them to use artificial birth control, they cannot use it. If the couple used ABC because of the threat of forced abortions, that would still be a grave sin.
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jamanne
Guest
know a young woman now living in Canada who was forcefully taken from work to have an abortion in China.the supervisors in places with lots of female employees are required to keep records of the menstruation cycles of all women and if any woman is suspected of being pregnant and already has a child she is immediately taken to the abortion clinic she has no choice.If a second child is born it is treated as a non person ,the family is refused housing and social benefits which are considerably important today and often fanmly poverty ensues
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Thoughtfulone
Guest
No way.
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MarkThompson
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Actually, I agree with Alexander. You’re not entitled to commit one sin to stop somebody else from probably committing another.
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SuscipeMeDomine
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colmcille1
Guest
I checked out the “one-child policy” link above. It is very unnerving to think that this sort of social engineering is at work in China.
I befriended a Chinese married couple here in Ireland a while back. You could not meet a nicer family (they have a beautiful son). I am glad this lad will grow up here and not in his mum’s birthplace where she was a “product” of this one-child policy.
China was one country that the great Pope John Paul II was not permitted to visit. A pity.
We must pray for God’s children everywhere.
God Bless,
Colmcille1.
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Hesychios
Guest
There are many families in China with more than one child, although most, especially in the urban areas, obey the letter of the law. I have seen them and met some, they seem to be mostly from rural areas.
The family must be willing to accept some sacrifices, I believe there is a hefty fine, and the tax rate is higher. No jail time or that kind of thing that I am aware of, so someone with means could actually go ahead and conceive more children as they wish and God wills. They would register the child and pay the taxes. Children who are born but not registered do not quality for free public education and emergency services (but that is often also the case with migrant families too).
If the Catholic church in north America would work more closely with the Catholic church in China the effects of the one child policy could be mitigated a bit, or even reversed. Funds could be set up to rescue families which have to pay the fines and penalties, and help them pay for an education for their children.
I am not sure of the fine, but I think it is 15000 renminbi, which equates to about $2500 USD in today’s market. This kind of program is doable, but it has to be discrete, because otherwise it would look like a mass conspiracy to circumvent the law, that’s why I think it would work better as a charity to privately help those already committed to raising a second or third child, reimbursing them for the fine and helping with tuitions.
The story of forced abortions isn’t as clear as often reported. Usually it is the visiting planning official, a nurse usually, and perhaps also the heighbors, hectoring the person until they give in. In other words the person is not normally arrested but willingly goes in the face of all the badgering. As a result many people try to keep the pregnancy a secret, which is much easier in a rural areas surrounded by close family.
The one child policy is not in effect in Hong Kong and Macau, which are both also part of China and have significant Catholic populations. I don’t know the abortion and contracepting rates in Hong Kong and Macau but the Christians there are doing it for the same reasons Americans do it.
The family must be willing to accept some sacrifices, I believe there is a hefty fine, and the tax rate is higher. No jail time or that kind of thing that I am aware of, so someone with means could actually go ahead and conceive more children as they wish and God wills. They would register the child and pay the taxes. Children who are born but not registered do not quality for free public education and emergency services (but that is often also the case with migrant families too).
If the Catholic church in north America would work more closely with the Catholic church in China the effects of the one child policy could be mitigated a bit, or even reversed. Funds could be set up to rescue families which have to pay the fines and penalties, and help them pay for an education for their children.
I am not sure of the fine, but I think it is 15000 renminbi, which equates to about $2500 USD in today’s market. This kind of program is doable, but it has to be discrete, because otherwise it would look like a mass conspiracy to circumvent the law, that’s why I think it would work better as a charity to privately help those already committed to raising a second or third child, reimbursing them for the fine and helping with tuitions.
The story of forced abortions isn’t as clear as often reported. Usually it is the visiting planning official, a nurse usually, and perhaps also the heighbors, hectoring the person until they give in. In other words the person is not normally arrested but willingly goes in the face of all the badgering. As a result many people try to keep the pregnancy a secret, which is much easier in a rural areas surrounded by close family.
The one child policy is not in effect in Hong Kong and Macau, which are both also part of China and have significant Catholic populations. I don’t know the abortion and contracepting rates in Hong Kong and Macau but the Christians there are doing it for the same reasons Americans do it.
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Biedrik
Guest
This…is actually a fantastic idea. Providing money for Chinese families so that they could live according to the commands of God would be a wonderful thing to do. It makes me wish I had some sort of authority within the Church, so that I could get this going. Sadly, I am just a simple teenager.
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crazzeto
Guest
This is true, however it is still highly problematic as it is still sin, and objectivly grave even if state policy lessens the scope of the sin. It would still be best for Chinese couples to practice NFP or safer yet live as brother and sister after their first Child.
This is what we get for submitting to the error of “there are too many people on Earth”. Blessed Virgin Mary, pray for China.
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Alexander_Smith
Guest
Is it so shocking that even in modern times, people might be persecuted for following what they know to be right? Even if the family was under the threat of death, they could not use ABC, ever. Two wrongs do not make a right.
Exactly. If the government came knocking at my door to take my wife for a forced abortion, I would physically fight them to prevent it from happening. It’s a hard thing to imagine, but evil must be stopped, no matter the consequences.
Excellent suggestions. It seems like Church leaders today largely ignore the Catholics in China. They need our help more than most other Catholics around the world.
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ProVobis
Guest
We could also ask for more Masses in Mandarin, the most spoken language in the world, to accommodate these people.
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