Catholics... Just As Bad As Protestants?

[Singinbeauty]

But ask yourself what institution has been studying the Bible longer than any individual. The Catholic Church. And isn’t that institution’s interpretation of scripture and doctrine at least worth some consideration in your personal process of ascertaining truth? I suppose that’s why you are here, right?

Not exactly. I am here to learn more about a group of people who have been described to me as a cult all my life. I wanted to come here to find common ground but not to convert. I am not searching for a new ‘religion’. I do want to make that clear. I respect your devotion but we do disagree and many ‘traditions’ and viewpoints. Not that those have anything to do with salvation. I do plan to attend a catholic church hopefully in the near future if I can find one I feel comfortable at. The last one I went to I just got into the parking lot but drove away because I was not apparently dressed appropriately (jeans and tee shirt… kind of a last minute ‘oh there’s a catholic church’ kind of thing) and I got THE DIRTIEST looks from those entering the church. No smiles or anything so it didn’t feel like it was my time to enter that church. shrug

And since the protestant faith broke away from the catholic faith all those years ago wouldn’t that mean that we have been studying just as long? It just happened that someone felt like the catholic church wasn’t telling the whole story and were missing something or keeping something from the people… Like the use of the human brain. Yes, we have many denominations out there and some are kinda crazy (ok really crazy!) but I believe that God gave us brains for a reason. To search for him personally and from what I gather the catholic church doesn’t like that so much. I could be wrong but with the whole hoopla that has gone on here with me saying that NO MAN is going to tell me what to believe that kind of solidified that fact. We didn’t make a clean break, though, since there are some commonalities in our faith and the basis and foundation is the same. We use the same bible (except for the Apocrypha but those are just history books and don’t have anything to do with Jesus himself right?), believe in the SAME God, believe that Jesus rose from the dead as a living sacrifice…

 

[scylla]

Actually those books that Martin Luther moved in the Bible and subsequently others removed from the Bible had a lot to do with Jesus. Since these were accepted by the early Christians many Jews rejected them. You can look to see how these books foretold of Jesus.
I would look up deuterocanonicals on this site for a little more info.
catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0503sbs.asp

The major reason for Martin Luther rejecting those books is the contradictions with his doctrines that he was teaching.

Since the Bible is read differently by our separated bretheren that is precisely why it is understood differently. The Catholic Church uses typology, historical understanding and the apostolic understanding of the faith to read the Bible. Maybe we should cover any other questions about this in the Bible thread you started.

I agree that God gave us brains for a reason. That is precisely why so many people study their way into the Catholic Church. It usually isn’t a friend who just invites them and makes them feel welcome as much as it is the Grace of God assisting an intellectual understanding of the faith, especially if they already have some prejudices against the Church.

I really preferred not to become Catholic, but once I saw the truth and the consistancy of it, not just opinions I had to convert. It was the best decision I ever made once I opened my heart.

God Bless
Scylla

I know how you feel about no smiles or not being welcome, sometime Christians are the biggest obstacle to faith. Ghandi once said something like this, I would become a Christian if not for the Christians.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Hello Singinbeauty;

Not exactly. I am here to learn more about a group of people who have been described to me as a cult all my life.

I’m sorry to hear that’s where you’re coming from. I hope you’ve spent enough time here to determine the Catholic Church is not a cult?

I am not searching for a new ‘religion’. I do want to make that clear. I respect your devotion but we do disagree and many ‘traditions’ and viewpoints. Not that those have anything to do with salvation.

Catholicism is not a “new” religion. It is the fullness of what you experience now. IMHO it would only deepen your personal relationship with Jesus Christ if you opened yourself up to the possibility that those “crazy Catholics” just might be right. And I differ with your comment to the extent you suggest that sacred Tradition (especially the sacraments of the Church) has nothing to do with salvation.

If you want to observe the mass, I suggest that you go with a practicing Catholic who can explain it to you beforehand, and then answer any questions you have after watching. Even better, contact the parish and let them know you are “just curious” about the mass. They may be able to help.

And since the protestant faith broke away from the catholic faith all those years ago wouldn’t that mean that we have been studying just as long?

Well, no. It means that you are rejecting (or protesting against) the full 1500 years of doctrinal development that occurred prior to the Reformation.

It just happened that someone felt like the catholic church wasn’t telling the whole story and were missing something or keeping something from the people… Like the use of the human brain. Yes, we have many denominations out there and some are kinda crazy (ok really crazy!) but I believe that God gave us brains for a reason. To search for him personally and from what I gather the catholic church doesn’t like that so much.

The Catholic Church has never kept the truth of the Gospel from the people. Nor does the Church discourage people from using their brains. It takes a thinking person to come to the conclusion that Christ gave us a real and physical church to instruct us in our faith. The Church does not declare doctrine or moral teachings without explanation. Always a doctrinal or moral teaching is accompanied by sound explanation supported by Scripture and Tradition. It takes humility to submit to the teaching authority of the Church. But it does not require a suspension of thought and reason. Again, I must protest that comments like this arise apparently from your own personal bias, perhaps ingrained from your having been taught that Catholicism is a cult.

I could be wrong but with the whole hoopla that has gone on here with me saying that NO MAN is going to tell me what to believe that kind of solidified that fact.

No one has said that Catholics submit blindly to every statement made by a priest. It is the *teaching authority of the Church * to which Catholics submit. This submission must come after a thoughtful analysis of whether or not one’s submission is what God wants of us. But again, you seem to think that Catholics are simply ordered to “think” or believe a certain way and we say “Amen.” That is not the case. We are not automatons. Doctrinal teachings are explained and supported, as are moral teachings on issues like abortion and war. We are no less discerning that Protestants.

 

[Singinbeauty]

No one has said that Catholics submit blindly to every statement made by a priest. It is the teaching authority of the Church to which Catholics submit.

I would like to respectfully disagree… Someone on this thread said that they are happy that they have someone to tell them what to believe… To me that says blind faith and I don’t believe that God intended that for us.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Singinbeauty:

I would like to respectfully disagree… Someone on this thread said that they are happy that they have someone to tell them what to believe… To me that says blind faith and I don’t believe that God intended that for us.

The Catholic Church does not require “blind” faith. Reason leads most people to acceptance of Church teaching.

By your standard, I can point to many fundamentalist Protestants who say something like “the Bible says creation in 6 days, so that’s the truth.” I would call that an admission of “blind” faith. Or how about the Fundamentalist who stated: “The King James Bible was good enough for Jesus so it’s good enough for me!” Where’s the “thinking” christian in action in these two scenarios?

Again, I ask you to take the blinders from your eyes and realize that the Catholic Church is not filled with mindless zombies. That is a caricature of Catholicism that persists from the earliest time of the Reformation. Your issue here is with the teaching authority of the church. A reasoned acknowledgment of the church’s authority in the area of defining doctrine and teaching morality does not amount to the suspension of thought and reason.

Think of this analogy. You have a disease and you decide to submit yourself to the care of a doctor who specializes in the treatment of your disease. Why? Because the doctor has the training, the experience and above all the God-given ability to treat your disease. The doctor suggests a certain operation, tells you to start taking a certain medicine, and instructs you to avoid certain foods and activities. All of this is intended to make you well. Say you accept and follow the doctor’s advice. Are you somehow degraded by the experience? Have you lost your cognitive abilities? Are you no longer using your brain because the doctor has told you what medicine to take and what foods to avoid? Should others think you are “stupid” because you could not treat the disease yourself? After all who knows your own body better than you, right? Think about it.

 

[Singinbeauty]

Think of this analogy. You have a disease and you decide to submit yourself to the care of a doctor who specializes in the treatment of your disease. Why? Because the doctor has the training, the experience and above all the God-given ability to treat your disease. The doctor suggests a certain operation, tells you to start taking a certain medicine, and instructs you to avoid certain foods and activities. All of this is intended to make you well. Say you accept and follow the doctor’s advice. Are you somehow degraded by the experience? Have you lost your cognitive abilities? Are you no longer using your brain because the doctor has told you what medicine to take and what foods to avoid? Should others think you are “stupid” because you could not treat the disease yourself? After all who knows your own body better than you, right? Think about it.

More often than not I would get a second opinion and do some research myself before putting the welfare of my body in someone else’s hands. Just like I do with my faith.

 

[On_my_way]

Singinbeauty:

More often than not I would get a second opinion and do some research myself before putting the welfare of my body in someone else’s hands. Just like I do with my faith.

So if you go get a second opinion and you get a a different prognosis, what then. Is the second opinion right or are you going to think that the first doctor was lying to you. So where do you go to get your second opinion on your faith. That is what’s wrong with protestantism they always need a second opinion. One will start at one church, not like what is being said there, then go to another church not like it and continues to go back and forth. I know a lot of prots. that go from one denom. to another denom. just because they feel that what someone is saying is wrong or whatever. With the Catholic Church there are no second opinions becasue every parish is under one Church, the same doctrines, teachings, traditions and beliefs. Remember I said the Church, I didn’t say people.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Re: Catholics… Just As Bad As Protestants?

How about - they are as bad as each other, and neither worse than the other ?​

That stops mutual fault-finding dead in its tracks - because finding fault with each other merely drives those who are criticised further apart; and does not convince those criticised; which means that those criticised feel “hard done by”, & become more paranoid than they were - which increases the burden of self-pity, alienation, bitterness, and resentment which is handed on to the next generation. So the same tedious dead questions are endlessly & uselessly recycled.

And all this comes of trying to vindicate oneself & one’s diseased ego - corporate or otherwise - at the expense of the (no less diseased) egos of others.

Christians are all useless and sick and condemned - because the real standard of measurement is not one group rather than another: but the perfect Righteousness of God. All of us fall short of that, no matter what our group: to be found wanting by God’s standards leaves no room for anyone to boast of any superiority - so it leaves no room for any of us to offend others by our boasting. And that is definitely good news. That way, all of us are condemned, and all of us receive mercy & grace from the God Who Alone is Good and Righteous. To experience God, is to see how nothing our own “righteousness” is - look at St. Paul; he counted his “righteousness” gained by the Law as so much filth, compared with that of Christ.

Grace is the only thing powerful enough to squash & heal our nonsense. ##

 

[Ignatius]

Singinbeauty:

Yes, catholic means universal and to that I agree. But I don’t agree that the catholic church we have today is the catholic that they were talking about way back when. The RCC has many adopted practices that, as of yet, I have not found ANY biblical evidence of. Practices that Paul and Peter never heard of.

I assume you mean doctrines. We will be glad to show you. What specifically are you speaking of?

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Singinbeauty:

More often than not I would get a second opinion and do some research myself before putting the welfare of my body in someone else’s hands. Just like I do with my faith.

So you are conceding that you would eventually put the welfare of your body into a doctor’s hands, rather than trying to heal yourself.

 

[Singinbeauty]

Robert in SD:

So you are conceding that you would eventually put the welfare of your body into a doctor’s hands, rather than trying to heal yourself.

Where did I say I wouldn’t? There’s no CONCEDING to it. Even when it comes to my faith. I do not say that there is no one out there who knows more about this or that than me. I NEVER EVER SAID THAT!!! I said, and let me be clear ONCE AND FOR ALL about this, that I make the decision of whether or not I find what my pastor tells me is true FOR MYSELF. They can tell me it’s truth but I have the right to test it against the bible, my relationship with GOD, and those other christians around me who have studied longer than me.

1 Thessalonians 5:20-22 (New Living Translation)

20Do not scoff at prophecies, 21but test everything that is said. Hold on to what is good. 22Keep away from every kind of evil.

Forgive the frustration in my post…

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Singinbeauty:

Where did I say I wouldn’t? There’s no CONCEDING to it. Even when it comes to my faith. I do not say that there is no one out there who knows more about this or that than me. I NEVER EVER SAID THAT!!! I said, and let me be clear ONCE AND FOR ALL about this, that I make the decision of whether or not I find what my pastor tells me is true FOR MYSELF. They can tell me it’s truth but I have the right to test it against the bible, my relationship with GOD, and those other christians around me who have studied longer than me.

Forgive the frustration in my post…

(1) My point is that from a Catholic perspective although we submit to the teaching authority of the Catholic Church, it is not a thoughtless submission, but an act of humility. It is an acknowledgment of Christ’s authority in the Church through the Holy Spirit. Catholics put their faith in that teaching authority like a patient relies upon the skills of a doctor. My point was that it is not a suspension of common sense to do so, which you have implied on several of your posts. (e.g. - “It just happened that someone felt like the catholic church wasn’t telling the whole story and were missing something or keeping something from the people… Like the use of the human brain.”) Your response to my analogy above concedes that a thoughtful submission to that authority does not make one stupid.

(2) Your concept of testing the truth and mine is very similar. I have tested the claims of authority made by the Catholic Church and found them to be true. Thus, before I come to a conclusion on a matter of doctrine or morality, I am bound to consider that conclusion in light of the Church’s authoritative teaching in addition to my own experiences and understanding of Scripture.

You do not recognize the teacing authority of the Church, and I respectfully disagree with your decision while acknowledging your right to make up your own mind. But DO NOT suggest that I and other Catholics are “stupid” or don’e “use our brains” just because we’ve come to a different conclusion from your own after much thought and prayer.

(3) Your frustration is understandable, and forgiven.

 

[Philthy]

Singinbeauty:

I think something is not being conveyed in my posts when it comes to this subject. It’s not that I am SET IN STONE in what I believe although there are some core beliefs that I have that I do NOT waiver from. I tried to convey my point in that example I gave but it must not have come off as intended. By not necessarily agreeing with my pastor does not mean I think he is wrong. It just means that I need to do a little research and praying. This is how I learn. Often if I question something he says I will go to my bible, a trusted christian who has been studying longer than I, and God… And more often than not I find he is right and I was wrong in my assumption. But do you see how I do not allow someone to tell me what to believe? I did the work myself to find the answer… I didn’t just accept it so now I am more confident in what I believe. Does this make ANY sense?

Hello again!
Isn’t it amazing how difficult it is to communicate exactly what you mean through the written word alone - without the exchange of information? Imagine how difficult it would be if you were writing to someone 2000 years from now, from a different culture, in a different language…
Nonetheless, I think I get your point - you do not allow someone to tell you what to believe: you are your own ultimate authority in matters of faith and morals through the method of “a little research and praying”.
I don’t condemn you for that approach - it’s very reasonable. Unbiblical of course, but reasonable nonetheless. I can’t help but wonder if you emphasize this because that is your opinion of the Catholic faith? - that we let “a man” tell us what to believe?
In a sense that is true, but it is not so much the man as the position he holds. And in that position we believe, when he uses it to utter binding moral truths (relatively rare), it is not so much him speaking, but the holy Spirit guiding him. Does that make any sense?
In practice, it means that when we are confronted with a moral dilemma, we place the teaching of the Church guided by the holy Spirit above our own inclinations - we “subject ourselves to the presbyters and clothe ourselves in humility”.

Phil

 

[roncor]

After reading all of the postings,I would like to make a few comments:!. there seems to have been alot of talk about insignifigant chatter:2:You either believe or you do not,that is a personal belief. 3: The Catholic Church is not a Democracy,even tho many of us Americans would like to think that way. 4: You either accept the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church or you dont. If you dont then youll have to find another home and I dont mean here on earth.The Church is made up of humans,but it is under the control of the Man, who gave His life ,that we can be happy not for a 100 years but for a milleniums.John

 

[kim_wilson]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Singinbeauty
… I go to a non-denom church and the pastor there does his sermon then I go home and study over what he talked about and come to a conclusion of whether or not I agree. He will not tell me what to believe, just present his ‘case’, and luckily I have agree’d with him thus far.

What if you do disagree with him on some point in the future? Will it be because the Holy Spirit guides you and not your pastor or vice versa? Will you then look for another church that agrees with everything You believe or will You start your own Church? There are approximately 36,000 different Protestant faiths.

Beauty–I don’t mean to sound judgmental. I grew up S. Baptist and as an adult I Protestant hopped for years. I finally came to the conclusion that no one church had the corner on the truth so I just attended the church in which I was the happiest worshipping and which had beliefs closest to My interpretation of Scripture. It sounds like your right where I was for about 10 years of my life.

Godspeed your journey girl!

kim

 

[Singinbeauty]

roncor:

After reading all of the postings,I would like to make a few comments:

1. there seems to have been alot of talk about insignifigant chatter

I am not quite sure what you mean by this statement but… um… Ok.

1. You either believe or you do not,that is a personal belief.

That is very true. I assume you mean that I either believe the teachings of the catholic church or I don’t. I choose not to of course that is to an extent. I believe that the catholic church teaches that Jesus is the way to Heaven and I believe that but I don’t believe in some of their practices.

1. The Catholic Church is not a Democracy,even tho many of us Americans would like to think that way.

A democracy? I have never thought of it as such.

1. You either accept the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church or you dont. If you dont then youll have to find another home and I dont mean here on earth.

I REALLY hope you are inferring what I THINK you are inferring here. Just because I don’t follow the catholic church does not mean I will not go to Heaven. Jesus said that there are TWO things for salvation to be met. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself. I am not sure where it says that not following the catholic church will send you to hell.

1. The Church is made up of humans,but it is under the control of the Man, who gave His life ,that we can be happy not for a 100 years but for a milleniums.John

I pute a number 5 in front of this because it seems to be a separate thought from #4. I hope you don’t mind.

The CHURCH is made up of humans and run by them. You cannot tell me that ANY church has never made a mistake or a misleading of the scriptures. NONE. Even if the crusades and the heresy burnings WERE a political and govermental thing the church still allowed itself to be used as a front for these ‘witch’ hunts. Even the last pope APOLOGIZED for these acts on behalf of the catholic church so some responsibility was recognized. There are sick and twisted people in the church leadership no matter the denomination you belong to. Look at all the little children who have been molested. This is why I distrust the CHURCH in the HUMAN aspect. Jesus resides IN ME. He will keep my path straight. I will see each and every one of you in Heaven and rejoice that we finally made it!

 

[Singinbeauty]

kim wilson:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Singinbeauty
… I go to a non-denom church and the pastor there does his sermon then I go home and study over what he talked about and come to a conclusion of whether or not I agree. He will not tell me what to believe, just present his ‘case’, and luckily I have agree’d with him thus far.

What if you do disagree with him on some point in the future? Will it be because the Holy Spirit guides you and not your pastor or vice versa? Will you then look for another church that agrees with everything You believe or will You start your own Church? There are approximately 36,000 different Protestant faiths.

Nope, I will not start my own church because I am HIGHLY unqualified… Did you see the example/experience that I included in this thread? I disagree’d with a pastor and left that church never to return again. His teachings did not match what God had led ME to believe. His main focus was on his congregation giving money to the church (and I do mean MAIN focus it was not Jesus he was teaching people) and obviously they did give him money because he arrived to the church in a helicopter, I have seen pics of his house, and he had bodyguards who looked like secret service personnel greet him at the door to escort him in. He taught his congregation, christians and non-christians alike, that if you give money to the church you will no longer have to worry about money… in fact you will become rich (worldly rich mind you) beyond your imagination. When asking for donations from the congregation for a women’s shelter they were building he asked that the furniture be brand new, not used. I was so sad when I left because he did an alter call and a ton of people came up and accepted Christ… Yay for the people because they have found Him but I wonder what kind of hardships they will face and be discouraged because a pastor told them that God will make them materially rich. shrug

So you see, I did disagree with a pastor just as I disagree with your priests because of some of the teachings make no sense to me. I don’t see myself turning catholic anytime soon but I am here to learn and to squelch some beliefs I have had.

 

[scylla]

I am glad you are staying and participating. I admire your honesty in looking to see what Catholics believe.

Don’t let us turn you off in our zeal to share the Catholic faith with you, some of us are just so excited about it we just want everyone to experience it. But, sometimes we do get a little pushy.

You can feel free to disagree with priests in the Catholic Church as many of us do also. The truth of the Church flows through the priest not from them. That is how unity and belief is maintained, since their opinion doesn’t change Church teaching.

Here is an example, if a priest decides to start believing in re-baptizing, he is not going to be able to just teach that and that is the new truth for that parish. You can talk to him and if he doesn’t listen you take it to the bishop and so forth. There is unity of belief and it can be maintained. That is one big reason for a defined belief, so that errors can be corrected, instead of new churches just starting up.

A lot of things wont make sense to you coming from an evangelical point of view and it does take some time. Especially since some of the things Catholics do look funny to outsiders. I remember watching tv and some people saying “what do those Catholics do?” North, South, West East" (referring to the sign of the cross.)

So feel free to ask questions, if we don’t get in the way too much, maybe you will get to learn some good info about Catholicism.

In Christ
Scylla

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Hello Singinbeauty;

You wrote:

The CHURCH is made up of humans and run by them. You cannot tell me that ANY church has never made a mistake or a misleading of the scriptures. NONE. Even if the crusades and the heresy burnings WERE a political and govermental thing the church still allowed itself to be used as a front for these ‘witch’ hunts. Even the last pope APOLOGIZED for these acts on behalf of the catholic church so some responsibility was recognized. There are sick and twisted people in the church leadership no matter the denomination you belong to. Look at all the little children who have been molested. This is why I distrust the CHURCH in the HUMAN aspect. Jesus resides IN ME. He will keep my path straight. I will see each and every one of you in Heaven and rejoice that we finally made it!

From your comment I think that you have an incorrect notion of infallibility. Far from what you may perceive, Catholics do not believe that the Church makes no mistakes. The mistakes made in connection with the various Crusades and Inquisitions (both of which were intended to benefit the Church and its people but were abused by persons inside and outside of the Church) have nothing to do with teaching *doctrine * and morality. It is only in these two areas that the Church claims infallibility - and even then the infallibility is limited in its nature. As with any church, the members sometimes fail to meet the standards that are proclaimed. Sometimes priests and bishops are model examples, but sometimes they fail. Christ never promised that the people of His Church would be sinless, only that they would be forgiven.

If you are looking for an “impeccable” or sinless church here on Earth you are looking in vain. If you think that Catholics believe they are a “perfect” church you are mistaken. Peope are the Church. And people are prone to commit sin because of humanity’s fallen nature. The amazing thing about the Catholic Church is that despite the very human failings of its members (Even Peter denied Christ three times) it has persisted in its mission to proclaim the Gospel for almost 2000 years - and it has done so consitently - and without teaching error or inconsistency.

 

[Philthy]

Hi Singin!

Here’s what Kim posted (and you highlited):

Kim:

What if you do disagree with him on some point in the future? Will it be because the Holy Spirit guides you and not your pastor or vice versa?

Kim:

And here was your reply(slightly edited )

Singinbeauty:

Nope, I will not start my own church because I am HIGHLY unqualified… Did you see the example/experience that I included in this thread? I disagree’d with a pastor and left that church never to return again. His teachings did not match what God had led ME to believe…blah blah blah… I was so sad when I left because he did an alter call and a ton of people came up and accepted Christ… Yay for the people because they have found Him but I wonder what kind of hardships they will face and be discouraged because a pastor told them that God will make them materially rich. shrug

So you see, I did disagree with a pastor just as I disagree with your priests because of some of the teachings make no sense to me.

I don’t see myself turning catholic anytime soon but I am here to learn and to squelch some beliefs I have had.

None of which addresses the question you were supposed to answer(good stuff though!). Here let me restate it:
When your interpretation of Scripture conflicts with the pastors interpretation, how do you decide which of you (if either) is being guided by the holy spirit? What if the entire church(throughout the world) held an opinion contrary to yours what would you do? Or do you consider the question irrelevant because you are only responsible for what is reasonable to you, and God won’t condemn a person for such an error?
A yes answer for that last question, based on “prayer and reflection” puts you firmly in the seat of pope with the exception that you don’t necessary “bind” others to your view. Such an approach has lead to the many conflicting branches of Christianity. Do you really think that is biblical given the amount of effort Paul put into correcting established Churches in their doctrine?
And again, please don’t think Im judging you - your views are more in line with my wife’s views and I love her more than I ever have. Im just not sure where you’re coming from, and my mind works in an overly analytical manner.

Phil