Catholics lack common sense.

[SeanTom]

(Continued from previous posting)

56: “Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in Him.”

COMMENT: This is self explanatory. But recall that this isn’t the first time he made this statement. He made this same statement several times in John 6. Why would He keep repeating Himself? He, in my opinion, was emphasizing his point. Now, how do we know that Jesus wasn’t only referring to the bread that he distributed during the Last Supper? This could not have referred to ONLY those who attended the Last Supper - but to those who were yet to be born. The word “whoever” pertains to all humans, including those born in the future. Otherwise, instead of using the words “whoever eats this bread”, Jesus would, or could have said “For those of you sitting at this table, who eats this bread….”. This statement was not just an “off-the-cuff” statement, but a very concerned statement to his followers and his followers to come.

1. “Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me”

COMMENT: Here Jesus is showing us the passing down of the sequence by which we can all obtain eternal life. Jesus has eternal life because of His Father, and we can have eternal life because of Jesus. Taking Jesus into our body through the Consecrated Bread and Wine will accomplish this. One example of how this Rite was passed on from Jesus to Peter, and, in sequence, to the Priests, follows:

Paul wrote in 1 Cor: 23-25: "I have received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said: ‘This is my body, which is for you. Do this in remembrance (anamnesis) of me.’ In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying: ‘This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.’ " (I Cor. 11:23-25; cf. Matt. 26:26-29; Mark 14:22-25; Luke 22:14-20).

58: “This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever”

COMMENT: Jesus is showing us here how to accept Him as our Lord and Savior. We must allow Jesus to enter our body, mind and soul, by partaking of His body and blood through the consumption of the consecrated bread and wine, His body and blood. This is a heavenly act coming down to us from Heaven. If we do this, we will live forever, in His Kingdom.

60: “Then many of his disciples who were listening said, ’This saying is hard; who can accept it? As a result of this, many of His disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.

COMMENT: This was a command, and a divine precept. Jesus, knowing this, said to them, “Doth this scandalize you?” And, rather than give a figurative meaning, “many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.” Jesus was then prepared to allow even the twelve apostles to leave him without further explanation. Jesus then asked his twelve, “Will you also go away?

ADDITIONAL COMMENTS: It is obvious that Jesus meant his words to be taken literally. In other parts of Scripture, when Jesus made remarks to his disciples, and the disciples questioned or indicated that they did not understand what Jesus had said, then Jesus would explain to them what his words meant, either directly or through a parable.

In One incident Jesus told Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews, that “unless a man be born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God.” Nicodemus then asked, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb, and be born again?”. Jesus then answered him precisely by telling him that a man must be “born again of water and the Holy Ghost.” Christ again corrects his misunderstanding.

At still another time, Jesus said to His disciples, “Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” The disciples then thought that Jesus was talking about their taking no bread with them. Jesus, knowing what they were thinking, explained himself and asked, “Why do you not understand that it was not concerning bread? I said to you, Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees” The disciples then understood that Jesus was talking about their doctrines.

The above were usual occurrences when disciples did not understand the meaning of some of Jesus’ teachings.

BUT, in this case, when the disciples said they couldn’t accept or believe that the bread was Jesus’ body and the wine was Jesus’ blood, or the concept thereof, Jesus did not

proceed to explain what he meant, as he did in other teachings, but rather just let them leave without any further comments. This tells me that Jesus meant what he said and that it was very clear. He did not try to explain how this event happens, but repeatedly asked them to believe what he had said. Many still walked away.

The preceding scriptural references and my comments tell me that priests, as disciples who descended from Jesus and Peter, do, in fact, change the bread and wine into the body and blood of our Savior during the Consecration. This Consecration is a means of carrying out Jesus demands when he told us to eat and drink his body and blood; and that his flesh is true food and his blood is true drink., If priests did not have this authority, the meaning of Jesus teachings on the partaking of his body and blood would be lost. I thank God that we, in the Catholic Church, have the true meaning of this action and the opportunity to bring Jesus into our bodies through Holy Communion. This is not an event that takes place in many other religions and that is sad, and what is even sadder is that they deny the validity of what Jesus had told us in the form of a command.

(Continued on next posting)

 

[SeanTom]

(Continued from previous posting)

Finally, in Mat:28:16-20: (Talking to his eleven Apostles) “Then Jesus approached and said to them, ‘All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you’”. One of His commands was “: “Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day”. The command was passed on by Jesus to the Apostles, and subsequently to our ordained priests.

I believe the above with all my heart and all my soul.

 

[Departed_Light]

FCEGM said in part:

I ]n the sacramental institution of the Eucharist the Apostles were given the fullness of the Crucified and Resurrected Flesh of Our Lord Christ under the appearances of bread and wine they received - just as Catholics and Orthodox continue to do through the succession of the Apostles. Christ, in saving us, gave the Father nothing but the fullness of Himself. Likewise, He gives us nothing but Himself in the Eucharist.

How is this possible? How can Christ give to the Apostles His resurrected flesh and blood when He hadn’t been crucified, buried, or resurrected yet?

God is outside of time. Yes he is, but the Apostles aren’t and weren’t. They could not receive from the future.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

This does say “body and blood” but if you look at the rest of it, they are saying it was the “Body and Blood” of Jesus just that once, on the night of the Last Supper. After that it became just a “remembrance” for them, as is stated in the second part. It was a Sacrament that only occurred once in history, and does not re-occur over and over again as in the Catholic Eucharist.

It certainly is a totally different point of view; just this difference alone would make it extremely difficult for the Catholic Church and the main Protestant denominations to ever come together again.

First of all what you propose to be “re-occur” “over and over again as in the Catholic Eucharist” IS NOT CATHOLIC TEACHING, BUT AN INVENTION FROM NON CATHOLICS WHO HAVE BEEN MISINFORMED OR LIED TO ABOUT THIS 2000 YEAR OLD APOSTOLIC CATHOLIC, BIBLICAL TEACHING AND ORAL APOSTOLIC TRADITION, HANDED DOWN TO US TODAY FROM THE JESUS AND HIS APOSTLES. Let us be clear here.

The sacrifice of Jesus Christ for all of humanity was done “once and for all” he began his eternal sacrifice at the last supper and completed the “passover” “last supper” on the cross when Jesus states “it is finished”.

Jesus ascended into heaven and makes his eternal sacrifice present before God on our behalf “a (sacrificial) Lamb standing as though slain” see Revelations 5:6. Jesus remains in heaven with his sacrificial wounds on his body being offered eternally “for all”.

Now I speak to you about a mystery here; The Mass when properly prayed and understood fulfills the liturgical prayer Jesus gave us in the “Our Father” " THY KINGDOM COME THY WILL BE DONE ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN,GIVE US THIS BREAD OUR DAILY BREAD" … The Eucharist is not a “re-occur” as you falsely stated, but is done in “rememberance”= making present in time from eternity, what was done in time from the redemptive act of Jesus made “once and for all”. The biblical “rememberance” you quoted does not have a 20th century interpretation as you falsely proposed here.

I leave you with some Catholic scriptures from the Apostles who believed and handed down to us the Eucharist.

Matthew 26: 26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, “Take and eat; this is my body.” 27 Then he took a cup, gave thanks, 16 and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you, 28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.

1Corinthians 10: 16 The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? 17 Because the loaf of bread is one, we, though many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.

1Corinthians 11: 1 Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ. 2 **I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you. 23 For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread, 24 and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”
26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes. 27 Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. 28 A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself. **

John 6: 55 **For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. **
61 Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, **“Does this shock you? .
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” **

cont;

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

The following scripture seperates those of the world who seek wisdom from the world and find us Catholics as “lacking common sense” for “proclaiming the death of the Lord until he comes” a stumbling block for them and their “lack of faith” in Jesus Words in his Eucharist.

1Cor.2: 10 this God has revealed to us through the Spirit.For the Spirit scrutinizes everything, even the depths of God. 11…, no one knows what pertains to God except the Spirit of God. 12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit that is from God, so that we may understand the things freely given us by God. 13 **And we speak about them not with words taught by human wisdom, but with words taught by the Spirit, describing spiritual realities in spiritual terms. 14 Now the natural person does not accept what pertains to the Spirit of God, for to him it is foolishness, and he cannot understand it, because it is judged spiritually. 15 The spiritual person, however, can judge everything but is not subject to judgment by anyone. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to counsel him?” But we have the mind of Christ. **

Luke 12: 8 I tell you, everyone who acknowledges me before others the Son of Man will acknowledge before the angels of God. 9 But whoever denies me before others will be denied before the angels of God.

Hebrews 11: 1 Faith is the realization of what is hoped for and evidence 2 of things not seen. ** 3 By faith we understand that the universe was ordered by the word of God, 3 so that what is visible came into being through the invisible. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him, for anyone who approaches God **must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Hebrews 10: 19 Therefore, brothers, since through the blood of Jesus we have confidence of entrance into the sanctuary 20 by the new and living way he opened for us through the veil, that is, his flesh 23 Let us hold unwaveringly to our confession that gives us hope, for he who made the promise is trustworthy. **

This is what happens at Mass when the “presence of Jesus” body, blood, soul and divinity are done in “rememberance of me” in his Eucharist before the Father and the “all”.

Hebrews 12: 22 No, you have approached Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and countless angels in festal gathering, 23 and the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, 6 and God the judge of all, and the spirits of the just made perfect, 24 and Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood that speaks more eloquently 7 than that of Abel. 25 See that you do not reject the one who speaks. For if they did not escape when they refused the one who warned them on earth, how much more in our case if we turn away from the one who warns from heaven.

Peace be with you**

 

[mark_a]

It was a Sacrament that only occurred once in history, and does not re-occur over and over again as in the Catholic Eucharist.

Don’t forget about that Orthodox Eucharist.

Or that Jewish passover.

Non-apostolic Protestants shouldn’t pretend to have the real presence, and something deep within them tells them so. Yippee for them!!

 

[Timothy_Piper]

How do you know that He didn’t?

uummm He said He broke bread and said He drank the fruit of the vine; but perhaps He meant something else not stated. In the book of Acts their is talk of people gathering (the church) and “breaking bread”; no mention of ever eating flesh.

Jesus would be in violation of His own commandment in Genesis 9:4 & Leviticus 17:14 & Deuteronomy 12:23; I don’t believe that God is a hypocrite nor changes, at least in my personal opinion based on what I know and love of Him

There were accusations against Christians as being cannibals, but these claims were made by pagans and was a false claim to try to diminish and destroy Christianity by secular pagans.

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

kristani,

I don’t think you are being quite fair to our Presbyterian friends. I sure would not be insulted by your friend. Cut off as they are from Catholic tradition, how are they supposed to believe in the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ in the Eucharist? As for common sense, they are partly correct. Common sense would never lead one to believe in such a doctrine. Only by faith can we perceive this truth.

Think of the lines we sing at Benediction in the Tantum Ergo:

Down in adoration falling,
Lo, the Sacred Host we hail,
Lo, o’er ancient forms departing
Newer rites of grace prevail:
**Faith all defects supplying, **
Where the feeble senses fail

Rather than taking offense at those who lack faith, we could acknowledge that this is a hard teaching. When Our Lord first revealed it He lost many disciples. I do not take this as an insult from the authors of the Westminster Confession, but a frank acknowledgment that they do no believe Christ is capable of transcending what they consider to be common sense. I don’t agree that common sense prohibits our beliefs, especially when coupled with faith. It doesn’t seem to me to be common sense to so restrict God, with whom everything is possible, as they do. But are they not to be objects of our sympathy, leaning on common sense, pitiable for not having faith “where feeble senses fail”?

Rory

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

uummm He said He broke bread and said He drank the fruit of the vine; but perhaps He meant something else not stated. In the book of Acts their is talk of people gathering (the church) and “breaking bread”; no mention of ever eating flesh.

Jesus would be in violation of His own commandment in Genesis 9:4 & Leviticus 17:14 & Deuteronomy 12:23; I don’t believe that God is a hypocrite nor changes, at least in my personal opinion based on what I know and love of Him

There were accusations against Christians as being cannibals, but these claims were made by pagans and was a false claim to try to diminish and destroy Christianity by secular pagans.

Jesus does not break the Law of the covenant he fulfills the Law and the prophets. Jesus is not in violation of the law because to violate the law as far as “cannibalism” is concerned, is to eat flesh of a dead person, Jesus was NOT dead when he instituted his Eucharist, and he rose from the dead and celebrated his Eucharist again because he lives he is not dead. So the law has been fulfilled not violated by Jesus Christ.

Luke 24:27
Then beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them what referred to him in all the scriptures.
28
As they approached the village to which they were going, he gave the impression that he was going on farther.
29
But they urged him, “Stay with us, for it is nearly evening and the day is almost over.” So he went in to stay with them.
30
**And it happened that, while he was with them at table, he took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them.
31
With that their eyes were opened and they recognized him, but he vanished from their sight. **32
Then they said to each other, “Were not our hearts burning (within us) while he spoke to us on the way and opened the scriptures to us?”
33
So they set out at once and returned to Jerusalem where they found gathered together the eleven and those with them
34
who were saying, **“The Lord has truly been raised and has appeared to Simon!”
35
Then the two recounted what had taken place on the way and how he was made known to them in the breaking of the bread. **

True many Catholic Martyrs went to their death professing their belief in the Eucharist since the first centuries from Pagan Rome. This is not rumor. In fact the first 30 Popes beginning with St. Peter were all martyred for their Christian faith.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Okay, tell me what Jesus actually said at the last supper. Let’s look at what he actually said, line by line.

Do you not own a Bible or have access to one? If so, then you bring it up line by line. If you believe He violated His own commands by commanding the apostles to literally eat the flesh with the life, the blood in it, then that is what you believe, which is different than how I see it in Scripture as a whole and how the early church in the book of Acts clearly demonstrates that people broke bread, not flesh. It is not hard to understand why Jesus used the term eat my flesh and this is the cup of the blood of the New Covenant, which did not begin until after His death, burial and resurrection - it is a metaphoric analogy between feeding on the living word and the spiritual well being which results.

You obviously see it differently and I believe it is because you do not or maybe not able to separate the fleshly from the spiritual food of the life giving Christ??

 

[Timothy_Piper]

I refer to the Gospel of John, Chapter 6:51-71 (from the Vatican Website)

51

I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world."

52

The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?”

53

Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

54

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.

55

For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.

56

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.

57

Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.

58

This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever."

59

These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

60

20 Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?”

61

Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, "Does this shock you?

62

What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?

63

It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

64

But there are some of you who do not believe." Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.

65

And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.”

66

As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.

67

Jesus then said to the Twelve, “Do you also want to leave?”

68

Simon Peter answered him, "Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

69

We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God."

70

Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you twelve? Yet is not one of you a devil?”

71

He was referring to Judas, son of Simon the Iscariot; it was he who would betray him, one of the Twelve.

I really don’t see any evidence in this whole section that indicates Christ was talking symbolically. He continues to assert that it is His Body and Blood even though it shocks His listeners, even though it is hard for them to accept. He doesn’t call back the ones that leave. I think His words and His meaning are perfectly clear.

Then you must remove verse 63; there Jesus explicitly states the manner for which he was addressing the people there; the one who lacked understanding and believed He spoke literally are the ones that did not believe in Him; the one’s who stayed understood that it was His words that have life; some thing as John 1:1 and Hebrews 4:12 infers and explicitly states…believe it or not.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Jesus does not break the Law of the covenant he fulfills the Law and the prophets. Jesus is not in violation of the law because to violate the law as far as “cannibalism” is concerned, is to eat flesh of a dead person, Jesus was NOT dead when he instituted his Eucharist, and he rose from the dead and celebrated his Eucharist again because he lives he is not dead. So the law has been fulfilled not violated by Jesus Christ.

Luke 24:27
Then beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them what referred to him in all the scriptures.
28
As they approached the village to which they were going, he gave the impression that he was going on farther.
29
But they urged him, “Stay with us, for it is nearly evening and the day is almost over.” So he went in to stay with them.
30
**And it happened that, while he was with them at table, he took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them.
31
With that their eyes were opened and they recognized him, but he vanished from their sight. **32
Then they said to each other, “Were not our hearts burning (within us) while he spoke to us on the way and opened the scriptures to us?”
33
So they set out at once and returned to Jerusalem where they found gathered together the eleven and those with them
34
who were saying, **“The Lord has truly been raised and has appeared to Simon!”
35
Then the two recounted what had taken place on the way and how he was made known to them in the breaking of the bread. **

True many Catholic Martyrs went to their death professing their belief in the Eucharist since the first centuries from Pagan Rome. This is not rumor. In fact the first 30 Popes beginning with St. Peter were all martyred for their Christian faith.

I believe you need to get your Scriptural facts in order before proceeding; go back and read Genesis 9, Leviticus and Deuteronomy as I cited earlier and apply to to your believe in the literal eating and drinking of His flesh, then ask why did He not do that when given the perfect opportunity? You see it one way and i see it Jesus way; He sets the example and the example was breaking of bread, just as Acts and the early gatherings of the church confirm. Who I am that I would argue with God?

 

[wanner47]

Timothy, where in the Bible does Jesus say, “By the way, this bread and wine is just bread and wine, and not My body and blood” ?

I can’t seem to find that verse.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Timothy, where in the Bible does Jesus say, “By the way, this bread and wine is just bread and wine, and not My body and blood” ?

I can’t seem to find that verse.

You are asking to prove a negative, which is not possible by definition. Taken in light of all of Scripture and the evidence and knowing the commands of God and knowing His perfect nature; we can logically and rationally conclude He was speaking spiritually and not literally.

 

[wanner47]

You are asking to prove a negative, which is not possible by definition. Taken in light of all of Scripture and the evidence and knowing the commands of God and knowing His perfect nature; we can logically and rationally conclude He was speaking spiritually and not literally.

However, in light of all of Scripture and the evidence and knowing the commands of God and knowing His perfect nature; I (and the Catholic Church) can logically and rationally conclude He *was *speaking literally and not spiritually. (Although, really, it’s more of a both/and situation instead of either/or.)

So where does that leave us?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I believe you need to get your Scriptural facts in order before proceeding; go back and read Genesis 9, Leviticus and Deuteronomy as I cited earlier and apply to to your believe in the literal eating and drinking of His flesh, then ask why did He not do that when given the perfect opportunity? You see it one way and i see it Jesus way; He sets the example and the example was breaking of bread, just as Acts and the early gatherings of the church confirm. Who I am that I would argue with God?

You know the disciples who did not accept Jesus teachings from John 6:48…onward. Left him for the same reasons who believe Jesus did not teach and say. If you were there when Jesus spoke this teaching, according to your belief, you would of been one of the disciples to walk away from Jesus teaching, just as you proclaim here publicly.

Here is clarification for you; John 6:63 It is the Spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail". There is no biblical symbolic spirit. The Holy Spirit is what gives life to the bread and wine transubstantiated into the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ. So the Law cannot judge what is of the Spirit, for those things of the Spirit Judges everything. This is biblical teaching in the New Covenant that fulfills the Law and prophets. Here is a scripture that can help you with this revelation from Jesus about the Spirit;

I Cor.2:1Cor.2: 10 this God has revealed to us through the Spirit.**For the Spirit scrutinizes everything, even the depths of God. 11…, no one knows what pertains to God except the Spirit of God. 12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit that is from God, so that we may understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we speak about them not with words taught by human wisdom, but with words taught by the Spirit, describing spiritual realities in spiritual terms. 14 Now the natural person does not accept what pertains to the Spirit of God, for to him it is foolishness, and he cannot understand it, because it is judged spiritually. **15 **The spiritual person, however, can judge everything but is not subject to judgment by anyone. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to counsel him?” But we have the mind of Christ. **

Understanding these mysteries of the Spirit, would keep you from Judging these mysteries of God that fulfill the law and prophets with the Natural Law which is close to disappearing.

Peace be with you

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Jesus does not break the Law of the covenant he fulfills the Law and the prophets. Jesus is not in violation of the law because to violate the law as far as “cannibalism” is concerned, is to eat flesh of a dead person, Jesus was NOT dead when he instituted his Eucharist, and he rose from the dead and celebrated his Eucharist again because he lives he is not dead. So the law has been fulfilled not violated by Jesus Christ.

Luke 24:27
Then beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them what referred to him in all the scriptures.
28
As they approached the village to which they were going, he gave the impression that he was going on farther.
29
But they urged him, “Stay with us, for it is nearly evening and the day is almost over.” So he went in to stay with them.
30
**And it happened that, while he was with them at table, he took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them.
31
With that their eyes were opened and they recognized him, but he vanished from their sight. **32
Then they said to each other, “Were not our hearts burning (within us) while he spoke to us on the way and opened the scriptures to us?”
33
So they set out at once and returned to Jerusalem where they found gathered together the eleven and those with them
34
who were saying, **“The Lord has truly been raised and has appeared to Simon!”
35
Then the two recounted what had taken place on the way and how he was made known to them in the breaking of the bread. **

True many Catholic Martyrs went to their death professing their belief in the Eucharist since the first centuries from Pagan Rome. This is not rumor. In fact the first 30 Popes beginning with St. Peter were all martyred for their Christian faith.

I don’t think you understand the OT versus quoted and what God said. Jesus always set the example, as the perfect leader that he is. The example he gave will never be contrary to His word nor was it; as the flesh and blood speaks of or symbolizes the sacrifice He would do on behalf of the called in Christ in just a short time from the time He instituted the ordinance, which is strictly spiritual and not literal as some presume in error. John 6:63 is a real good example between Jesus speaking in a metaphoric sense, but in verse 63 clarifying the manner, which was spiritual for the flesh profits nothing, in which He spoke. The unbelievers walked away because they took Him literally and the “called” stayed and understood as the apostle Peter clerly stated a few verses later. (You have the words of life)

Common sense tells us He spoke of many literal things in a figurative way to emphasize a spiritual truth; this is one reason He spoke in parables. For those that believe they understand and for those that don’t, they cannot.

I guess in some ways the question might be does it matter? I think it does and I don’t think it is much of a mystery either.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Timothy, where in the Bible does Jesus say, “By the way, this bread and wine is just bread and wine, and not My body and blood” ?

I can’t seem to find that verse.

Your asking to prove a negative; logically that is impossible. You either believe He spoke on a spirtual basis or you believe He spoke on a literal basis, which means you must pick and choose the obvious. Why is He not a real door or a real shepherd of real sheep? In the same way; He did not give real blood and real flesh at the table; He did that on the cross. Apparently the church in Acts got the message since they plainly state they “broke bread”. Why did they not say “we ate the Lords flesh”?

 

[Timothy_Piper]

However, in light of all of Scripture and the evidence and knowing the commands of God and knowing His perfect nature; I (and the Catholic Church) can logically and rationally conclude He *was *speaking literally and not spiritually. (Although, really, it’s more of a both/and situation instead of either/or.)

So where does that leave us?

God works on one heart at a time; so there is no “us”. It is you and it is me. In your world I am “anti-Catholic” and in your world you are “Catholic”. The reality is I have nothing against a single Catholic person; I have done business with Catholics, like painting my house for example - I will not discriminate because I disagree with one’s theology, I do have problems with the doctrines, which I believe have the same effect as the Pharisees did on the Jewish converts. I think God is personally repulsed by the idea of someone eating another humans flesh as He made it known throughout the Bible.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

You know the disciples who did not accept Jesus teachings from John 6:48…onward. Left him for the same reasons who believe Jesus did not teach and say. If you were there when Jesus spoke this teaching, according to your belief, you would of been one of the disciples to walk away from Jesus teaching, just as you proclaim here publicly.

Here is clarification for you; John 6:63 It is the Spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail". There is no biblical symbolic spirit. The Holy Spirit is what gives life to the bread and wine transubstantiated into the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ. So the Law cannot judge what is of the Spirit, for those things of the Spirit Judges everything. This is biblical teaching in the New Covenant that fulfills the Law and prophets. Here is a scripture that can help you with this revelation from Jesus about the Spirit;

I Cor.2:1Cor.2: 10 this God has revealed to us through the Spirit.**For the Spirit scrutinizes everything, even the depths of God. 11…, no one knows what pertains to God except the Spirit of God. 12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit that is from God, so that we may understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we speak about them not with words taught by human wisdom, but with words taught by the Spirit, describing spiritual realities in spiritual terms. 14 Now the natural person does not accept what pertains to the Spirit of God, for to him it is foolishness, and he cannot understand it, because it is judged spiritually. **15 **The spiritual person, however, can judge everything but is not subject to judgment by anyone. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord, so as to counsel him?” But we have the mind of Christ. **

Understanding these mysteries of the Spirit, would keep you from Judging these mysteries of God that fulfill the law and prophets with the Natural Law which is close to disappearing.

Peace be with you

Did you see how you made a clear and simple statement from the Lord and changed it to fit your theology. What did He say, “the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.” then the people that left; are the same people that took it as eating flesh; you have it completely backwards; just look at the plain words Jesus said. Two things “spirit” & “life” are the positive and the negative “flesh profits nothing”. Jesus left no doubt about how He spoke and Peter confirmed “to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.” What were the words? Spirit and life. I don’t see how it can be any clearer that that; those who believed He spoke of eating the flesh, which repulsed the Jews for good reason left and the one that were the “called” understood and stayed. As I said you have it completely backwards and why i do not know; Jesus is so clear.