Catholics lack common sense.

[SeanTom]

I appreciate the heartfelt warning, but given you have to show so many things prior to getting to that consecrated bread and get past Jesus and Peter’s own words in john 6:63-69, I would give you the exact same advice.

Timothy Piper,

I appears we are at an impasse. Believers and non-believers in the Eucharist have come to a fork in the road. One road leads to Heaven and one road leads to Hell. We all have the option to choose our own destiny. I wish you well.

 

[PJM]

=wanner=But we’re not eating another human’s flesh. We’re eating the flesh of God Incarnate.

But really, Timothy, my point is that I can defend my interpretation just as much as you can defend yours. How do we know whose interpretation is the correct one, if we both believe we are guided by the Holy Spirit?

The fact is friends, that the Protestant’s in Obstinate disbelief of the Real Presence give clear and indisputable evidence that they are NOT GUIDED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT [in relation to understanding what the bible actually say’s. INDEED, there position on “The Real Presence of Christ in Holy Communion,” may well be the GREATEST PARADOX in the history of the world!

They take from the bible what is literal and choose to translate it and then turn around and take one single verse Jn. 6:63] which requires PROPER translation… literally. This is Simply ASTOUNDING!

v. 63 properly understood is saying that actual human flesh has NO SPITITUAL BENEFIT. BUT it is the Glorified and Risen Christ that Catholics consume.

Despite the exceeding clear and [for Protestants, painfully specific] words of A Perfect “all-Wise, all-Knowing” God, incapable of error! They freely choose to hold to the position that “God does not mean what He clearly, repeatedly SAID, which in AFFIRMED by EACH AND EVERY NT author [who too are made to “not understand what Christ is saying“, despite the FACT that [except for John, who was burned in a boiling oil, but miraculously survived] actually GAVE THERE VERY LIFES IF BELIEF of the Dogma of the CC.

** Matt. 26 to 28:** 26 "Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you; for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”

** Mk. 14: 22- 24** “And as they were eating, he took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to them, and said, “Take; this is my body.” And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, and they all drank of it. And he said to them, " This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.”

** Lk. 22: 19 to 21** “And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, " This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” [20] And likewise the cup after supper, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you I s the new covenant in my blood.”

** John 6: 41 ** The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.”

v 47: “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life”

**v. 51"I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh." **

v. 52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” v. 53 "So Jesus said to them, ***Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; *** **[55] For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. /COLOR] [EVEN GOD, CHRIST CAN’T BE MORE SPECIFIC AND CLEAR ! v. 56 “He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.” **[PRECISLY what happens in Catholic Holy Communion!] **

And then "many disciples left Him! Jesus did NOT call them back. OPPS! I didn’t mean that. NO He turned to the Apostles and asked do you wish to desert me too? Thy said NO! Knowing exactly, because He is God, and able to do any GOOD thing!

1Cor.11: 23 - 29 ** " For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, " This is my body which is for you.** ** Do this in remembrance of me." ** In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the ** new covenant in my blood.** Do this, as often as you drink ** it, in remembrance of me.” **[26] For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. *** Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. *** In ORDER for one to “PROFANE” "the Body and Blood of our Lord [Paul here is speaking of the Consecrated Bread and Wine] They MUST BE the Real Glorified Body and Blood of Christ! THEY CANNOT BE just signs and symbols… An IMPOSSIBLITY!

READ IT IN THE KJB!

Love and prayers,

Pat

 

[KathleenGee]

Timothy Piper,

Have you ever seen the Liturgy of St. James the Lesser who was head of the Church of Jerusalem, that was all Jewish at the time?

Do you know that St. Iraneous was a pupil of St. John the Evangelist? Did you know the Maronite Catholics still celebrate the Liturgy of St. John??

Have you ever read ancient manuscripts of worship? Do you know that the power of the Epiclesus at Mass, the laying on of hands over the bread and wine only can be transubstantiated by a priest whose bishop laid hands on him?

In other words, the power the priests have to consecrate the Bread and Wine come from the Apostles themselves.

The laying of hands came from the apostles down to the bishops to their priests in succession from the original anointing of the Last Supper, the institution of the sacraments of the Eucharist and Holy Orders. Without a bishop’s laying of hands on the ordained, they cannot sacramentally function as priests.

If you would only go back to ancient manuscripts, documents, art, culture, diaries, the paper trail all goes back to the origins of the priestly ministry, the fulfillment of liturgy in the Breaking of Bread…the Eucharist was so sacred that people called it ‘The Secret’. Reading the liturgies, you will see prayers that are in use today, an evolving format into the Mass.

The Baby Jesus was placed in an animal feeder…symbolizing He would become food for us, Bread of Life.

Without physical, objective elements of the Sacraments and the administrative institution of the Church, everythimg is subjective.

Are you also implying there was no true church or faith because of the priesthood and the sacraments until Luther?..

Operating as an individual, with individual instruction, there is no church. And without the Church to guide, the sheep are scattered and lost.

Luther was a man plagued by scruples and obsessive thinking. He did work for reform. But the church also knew that our faith saves us, but it must be an authentic faith that becomes objective…living out the gospel. Where was Luther when he got his great inspiration? They even have his toilet on display in Worms.

What about the breakdown of family because of Sola Scriptura, of man breaking away from God and His church to be refined, to find his value in works of this world??? Then divorce was sanctioned, more breaking away, contraception, a divided and fractured Christianity. I read another post that some 50 new protestant groups are applying for non tax status a day in America.

Somebody hit you really bad. You need to pray to the Lord to remove anything in your heart because it is blinding you from even researching historical facts.

Check out Hebrewcatholic.org and see how the Jews are coming into the Catholic Church and are now seeing so much symbolism of it from the Old Testament.

As Pope John Paul II said, you always have chaff with the wheat…and the great challenge in life as you get older, and you do get burned or betrayed by those you trusted in the Church, that again our faith in Christ is a work each one of us must work out…that we have to keep our focus always on Christ and the bigger picture and not expect so much from weak people. After all, didn’t the Psalms say over and over again not to put your trust in man?

I see you as someone who trusts in man, in your own way of thinking…

Heard of the 12 Steps? We have our neighbor to remove our planks…we all have blind spots. I don’t trust my own way of looking at things and I always consult when I think I am going on thin ice…it is a discipline I have learned being Catholic. I am not so self-willed as I was when I was young.

So, in dealing with scandals or wars as a Catholic, we must always keep our eyes on Christ in the sacraments, in the Gospel.

I personally believe it is Sola Scriptura that is destroying the unity of Christians in this country. I heard a Jewish radio commentator say he wondered what was wrong with the Christians in this country, why we can’t come together and overcome our national problems. Sola Scriptura.

It took the Church 400 years to be established. Then we had 200 more years of the Dark Ages…why was that? Because Europe was under continual siege by barbarians. How can you construct? The Bible itself was the work of the Apostles, the bishops, the Early Church Fathers. Yet Luther took it on his own to remove 7 books because they didn’t fit in with his one idea…faith without works…scandal…

The Great Heresy of earliest Christian times was not believing in the Eucharist…making what is real merely an arbitrary symbol…even that memorial communion bread in services is dumped in the garbage afterwards…

So I challenge you to do some honest, open historical research of the early Christian church. It has brought many into the Church. Get hold of an ancient Catechism and see how the one we use today is no different. Do you think the early Church Fathers who were pupils of the original Apostles, would then in turn refute them and start teaching heresy??? That doesn’t make sense.

 

[PJM]

=KathleenGee;5993122]Timothy Piper,

Have you ever seen the Liturgy of St. James the Lesser who was head of the Church of Jerusalem, that was all Jewish at the time?

Do you know that St. Iraneous was a pupil of St. John the Evangelist? Did you know the Maronite Catholics still celebrate the Liturgy of St. John??

Have you ever read ancient manuscripts of worship? Do you know that the power of the Epiclesus at Mass, the laying on of hands over the bread and wine only can be transubstantiated by a priest whose bishop laid hands on him?

*** [Through the direct intervetion of God Himself PJM]***

The laying of hands came from the apostles down to the bishops to their priests in succession from the original anointing of the Last Supper, the institution of the sacraments of the Eucharist and Holy Orders.  Without a bishop's laying of hands on the ordained, they cannot sacramentally function as priests.

If you would only go back to ancient manuscripts, documents, art, culture, diaries, the paper trail all goes back to the origins of the priestly ministry, the fulfillment of liturgy in the Breaking of Bread…the Eucharist was so sacred that people called it ‘The Secret’. Reading the liturgies, you will see prayers that are in use today, an evolving format into the Mass.

The Baby Jesus was placed in an animal feeder…symbolizing He would become food for us, Bread of Life.

Without physical, objective elements of the Sacraments and the administrative institution of the Church, everythimg is subjective.

Are you also implying there was no true church or faith because of the priesthood and the sacraments until Luther?..

Operating as an individual, with individual instruction, there is no church. And without the Church to guide, the sheep are scattered and lost.

Luther was a man plagued by scruples and obsessive thinking. He did work for reform. But the church also knew that our faith saves us, but it must be an authentic faith that becomes objective…living out the gospel. Where was Luther when he got his great inspiration? They even have his toilet on display in Worms.

What about the breakdown of family because of Sola Scriptura, of man breaking away from God and His church to be refined, to find his value in works of this world??? Then divorce was sanctioned, more breaking away, contraception, a divided and fractured Christianity. I read another post that some 50 new protestant groups are applying for non tax status a day in America.

Somebody hit you really bad. You need to pray to the Lord to remove anything in your heart because it is blinding you from even researching historical facts.

Check out Hebrewcatholic.org and see how the Jews are coming into the Catholic Church and are now seeing so much symbolism of it from the Old Testament.

As Pope John Paul II said, you always have chaff with the wheat…and the great challenge in life as you get older, and you do get burned or betrayed by those you trusted in the Church, that again our faith in Christ is a work each one of us must work out…that we have to keep our focus always on Christ and the bigger picture and not expect so much from weak people. After all, didn’t the Psalms say over and over again not to put your trust in man?

I see you as someone who trusts in man, in your own way of thinking…

Heard of the 12 Steps? We have our neighbor to remove our planks…we all have blind spots. I don’t trust my own way of looking at things and I always consult when I think I am going on thin ice…it is a discipline I have learned being Catholic. I am not so self-willed as I was when I was young.

So, in dealing with scandals or wars as a Catholic, we must always keep our eyes on Christ in the sacraments, in the Gospel.

I personally believe it is Sola Scriptura that is destroying the unity of Christians in this country. I heard a Jewish radio commentator say he wondered what was wrong with the Christians in this country, why we can’t come together and overcome our national problems. Sola Scriptura.

I’m not as sure as you becasue they have elimanated 7 books, accept the ramdon changes of there founders [not Christ] simply human beings, and then so often go even further into error by ignoring passages found even in there own KJB… {Mt. 16:19, Jn. 20:19-23} for example and at will apply there own very limited understanding assuming to be guided by the Holy Spirit which is an impossibility as the HS too is God and CANNOT LIE, and any understanding not in confomity to that of the CC from which the Bible comes and for whom it is written MUST be in error:thumbsup: PJM]

It took the Church 400 years to be established. Then we had 200 more years of the Dark Ages…why was that? Because Europe was under continual siege by barbarians. How can you construct? The Bible itself was the work of the Apostles, the bishops, the Early Church Fathers. Yet Luther took it on his own to remove 7 books because they didn’t fit in with his one idea…faith without works…scandal…

The Great Heresy of earliest Christian times was not believing in the Eucharist…making what is real merely an arbitrary symbol…even that memorial communion bread in services is dumped in the garbage afterwards…

[Perhaps the Greatest PARADOX in the history of the world! PJM]

So I challenge you to do some honest, open historical research of the early Christian church. It has brought many into the Church. Get hold of an ancient Catechism and see how the one we use today is no different. Do you think the early Church Fathers who were pupils of the original Apostles, would then in turn refute them and start teaching heresy??? That doesn’t make sense.

Excellent post… THANKS!

 

[SeanTom]

Timothy Piper,

Have you ever seen the Liturgy of St. James the Lesser who was head of the Church of Jerusalem, that was all Jewish at the time?

Do you know that St. Iraneous was a pupil of St. John the Evangelist? Did you know the Maronite Catholics still celebrate the Liturgy of St. John??

Have you ever read ancient manuscripts of worship? Do you know that the power of the Epiclesus at Mass, the laying on of hands over the bread and wine only can be transubstantiated by a priest whose bishop laid hands on him?

In other words, the power the priests have to consecrate the Bread and Wine come from the Apostles themselves.

The laying of hands came from the apostles down to the bishops to their priests in succession from the original anointing of the Last Supper, the institution of the sacraments of the Eucharist and Holy Orders. Without a bishop’s laying of hands on the ordained, they cannot sacramentally function as priests.

If you would only go back to ancient manuscripts, documents, art, culture, diaries, the paper trail all goes back to the origins of the priestly ministry, the fulfillment of liturgy in the Breaking of Bread…the Eucharist was so sacred that people called it ‘The Secret’. Reading the liturgies, you will see prayers that are in use today, an evolving format into the Mass.

The Baby Jesus was placed in an animal feeder…symbolizing He would become food for us, Bread of Life.

Without physical, objective elements of the Sacraments and the administrative institution of the Church, everythimg is subjective.

Are you also implying there was no true church or faith because of the priesthood and the sacraments until Luther?..

Operating as an individual, with individual instruction, there is no church. And without the Church to guide, the sheep are scattered and lost.

Luther was a man plagued by scruples and obsessive thinking. He did work for reform. But the church also knew that our faith saves us, but it must be an authentic faith that becomes objective…living out the gospel. Where was Luther when he got his great inspiration? They even have his toilet on display in Worms.

What about the breakdown of family because of Sola Scriptura, of man breaking away from God and His church to be refined, to find his value in works of this world??? Then divorce was sanctioned, more breaking away, contraception, a divided and fractured Christianity. I read another post that some 50 new protestant groups are applying for non tax status a day in America.

Somebody hit you really bad. You need to pray to the Lord to remove anything in your heart because it is blinding you from even researching historical facts.

Check out Hebrewcatholic.org and see how the Jews are coming into the Catholic Church and are now seeing so much symbolism of it from the Old Testament.

As Pope John Paul II said, you always have chaff with the wheat…and the great challenge in life as you get older, and you do get burned or betrayed by those you trusted in the Church, that again our faith in Christ is a work each one of us must work out…that we have to keep our focus always on Christ and the bigger picture and not expect so much from weak people. After all, didn’t the Psalms say over and over again not to put your trust in man?

I see you as someone who trusts in man, in your own way of thinking…

Heard of the 12 Steps? We have our neighbor to remove our planks…we all have blind spots. I don’t trust my own way of looking at things and I always consult when I think I am going on thin ice…it is a discipline I have learned being Catholic. I am not so self-willed as I was when I was young.

So, in dealing with scandals or wars as a Catholic, we must always keep our eyes on Christ in the sacraments, in the Gospel.

I personally believe it is Sola Scriptura that is destroying the unity of Christians in this country. I heard a Jewish radio commentator say he wondered what was wrong with the Christians in this country, why we can’t come together and overcome our national problems. Sola Scriptura.

It took the Church 400 years to be established. Then we had 200 more years of the Dark Ages…why was that? Because Europe was under continual siege by barbarians. How can you construct? The Bible itself was the work of the Apostles, the bishops, the Early Church Fathers. Yet Luther took it on his own to remove 7 books because they didn’t fit in with his one idea…faith without works…scandal…

The Great Heresy of earliest Christian times was not believing in the Eucharist…making what is real merely an arbitrary symbol…even that memorial communion bread in services is dumped in the garbage afterwards…

So I challenge you to do some honest, open historical research of the early Christian church. It has brought many into the Church. Get hold of an ancient Catechism and see how the one we use today is no different. Do you think the early Church Fathers who were pupils of the original Apostles, would then in turn refute them and start teaching heresy??? That doesn’t make sense.

KathleenGee ,

Great Post. You appear to be very learned in Scripture and Catholic teachings.

 

[KathleenGee]

Thank you.

I have a secular education, and worked overseas as a lay missionary through my archdiocese with the Italian Capuchins from Bari (Padre Pio’s fraternity). Great education by just being with them, and learned on-the-job of how to evangelize. www.pacebenemondo.it was put together by the priest I worked with, Fra Francesco Monticchio. You may not understand the Italian, but you can grasp the great joy and fraternity that exists in a region that is practically 100% Catholic, although I don’t know how many practice their faith.

My friend of 36 years is now assigned to Andria…close to the Cathedral of Trani. On the altar are the 800 skulls of able Italian men who preferred to die for Christ than submit to Islam in the 1580’s. He said the region has a history of bloodshed and invasion…good community of people from whom to learn strength of faith. Joy in Christ and His cross…Franciscan charism especially embraced by them…and our attitude we need to draw more from to endure in this life.

I am an archdiocesan professionally trained catechist with 5 1/2 parttime years of pastoral ministry training, so my perspective is more from common sense, relational rather than a heavy historical, Scriptural or doctrinal means.

I have to work outside the home because two members aren’t well, and don’t want stipends from church to support my family. I am sitting in as a sponsor for the RCIA people.

An old Italian priest in the mission field said I would be writing some day…I think it is easier for people to read old women’s writings than listen to them

Blessings!

 

[SeanTom]

Thank you.

I have a secular education, and worked overseas as a lay missionary through my archdiocese with the Italian Capuchins from Bari (Padre Pio’s fraternity). Great education by just being with them, and learned on-the-job of how to evangelize. www.pacebenemondo.it was put together by the priest I worked with, Fra Francesco Monticchio. You may not understand the Italian, but you can grasp the great joy and fraternity that exists in a region that is practically 100% Catholic, although I don’t know how many practice their faith.

My friend of 36 years is now assigned to Andria…close to the Cathedral of Trani. On the altar are the 800 skulls of able Italian men who preferred to die for Christ than submit to Islam in the 1580’s. He said the region has a history of bloodshed and invasion…good community of people from whom to learn strength of faith. Joy in Christ and His cross…Franciscan charism especially embraced by them…and our attitude we need to draw more from to endure in this life.

I am an archdiocesan professionally trained catechist with 5 1/2 parttime years of pastoral ministry training, so my perspective is more from common sense, relational rather than a heavy historical, Scriptural or doctrinal means.

I have to work outside the home because two members aren’t well, and don’t want stipends from church to support my family. I am sitting in as a sponsor for the RCIA people.

An old Italian priest in the mission field said I would be writing some day…I think it is easier for people to read old women’s writings than listen to them

Blessings!

KathleenGee,

I bow to you and respect your experience in the field of Christianity. Thanks for sharing. Keep up the good work.

I’ve also been involved in many programs withing the Catholic church. I worked in RCIA for several years. My wife and I were co-Chairman of the RCIA program in our church. I am now a member of he Men’s club and a Lay Eucharist Minister of Holy Communion. In addition my wife and I attend bible studies twice a week given by a Theologian, whom we are very fortunate to have in our church. I’ve been involved in programs within our Church, starting out as an Altar boy when I was a young boy. One of my children is a missionary in the Philippines. Two of my other children also distribute Communion in their churches. Another of my daughters runs the church’s book store along with my wife. All six of our children and very active in their church communities.

I love studying Holy Scripture - I find it most fascinating and rewarding.

May our Lord bless you and your family

p.s. I didn’t mean for this to get personal, as it is not part of this topic, but felt it would do no harm. I was pleased to see KathleenGee’s credentials.

 

[KathleenGee]

Thank you!

I look at all your experience, and had to laugh at the small quote at the bottom about forgiveness…that is certainly the ‘grease’ to keep us going!

 

[Timothy_Piper]

I didn’t catch Mr. Piper’s background, but he is deeply imbedded with an 1830’s plus mindset…people can be traumatized by the profound effect their ministers make on them with such deliberate anti-Catholic distortions, that they refuse to even reason with whatever sources you give them.

You find such blatant and deliberate refusal to understand other Christians by American fundamentalists is scandalous, and these divisions scandalize both seculars and Muslims.

This cannot grasp the Word Made Flesh…

Because they simply do not want to…

And it is also very hurtful of him with such educated response to him, that he says he is praying for us, and they can’t see our own humanity.

No matter what your historical and documented answers, he will reject you.

The great heresy then was to deny the presence of Christ in the Eucharist. It started with followers who left Christ because they thought He was going to lead them into cannibalism.

For this man to accuse us of eating the flesh of Christ is committing the same loss of faith and willfulness those in the Gospel demonstrated…

and it is a warning for them as well, because those who do not eat of His flesh and drink of His blood will not have life everlasting…

My only comment to your post would be that there are two paths marked heaven; the wide path where the religious take all their spiritual baggage walking along the path together and the narrow path that Jesus said one must not only find, but agonize to get through it. Why agonize? Because it is so narrow you cannot take anything with you because it is based solely on faith and only admits one at a time.

The other comment concerning the term “eucharisteō” from the root “eucharistos” simply means “to be grateful, feel thankful, give thanks” and when added to “remembrance” from the Greek “anamnēsis” means “a remembering or recollection”; therefore when you put in context of what Jesus did on the cross, which was give His life, flesh and blood, for those that truly believe in His work on the cross, then the context of 1 Corinthians 11:24 become very clear and apparent to his children. "And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

Finally; how do you get to your Eucharist? You must first get past the levitical style priesthood, which the New Covenant replaced, where there only exists a royal priesthood of believers and a High Priest who “sits” at the rt hand of the father because His perfect sacrifice He needs not to stand ministering daily as the human priest need to. Have you not ever wonder why the Bible repeats often “sits at the right hand”; something oft repeated in Scripture should be carefully considered. Then you must get past “holy orders”, which gives the “priest” the power & authority to “call” Jesus down from heaven by “command”. I’m not sure how Catholics just accept that by faith when it just is not remotely explicit in the bible or early church; that one really baffles me.

Anyway, my 2cents of thought.

Timothy

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Duh What the heck does a Catholic who [God willing is trying to share the Catholic Faith:shrug:] go to a Calvinist site to understand Catholic teaching? It’s unbelievable

"[Westminster Confession of Faith - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaThe Westminster Confession of Faith is a Reformed confession of faith, in the Calvinist theological tradition. Although drawn up by the 1646 Westminster …/U]

The single truth resides within the CC, why would one go outside Her doctrine and dogmas for something one can ONLY find in the CC?

Completely confused Catholic!

Pat

Why would anyone who wants to know god go outside of Scripture to find Him?

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Anyhoo…

To believe in the Protestant Bible with 7 books removed by one man doesn’t make sense.

Here is the difference, the believer does believe the Word is without error; therefore there are 7 books missing, depending on which other faith one compare. They cannot legitimately say that the Bible is without error w/o speaking out of both sides of ones mouth.

 

[KathleenGee]

First of all,

When reading Sacred Scripture, you have to consider the author’s intent, his message, and in the same Holy Spirit in its then and its intent today.

We also have to realize that there are senses of Scripture – the literal sense…like God created everything in 6 days…There is the spiritual sense to Scripture and from this second sense, we have 3 sub’s…allegorical…recognizing the significance of the Jews crossing the Red Sea and Christ being a bridge through baptism for our union with Him, the moral sense of Scripture, and the angogical sense of Scripture that reflects on our eternal signficance…who we are, where we are going, our heavenly aim.

Then we have to deal with the issue of language in Scripture…Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic.

We must be attentive to the analogy of faith, its coherence and in the whole plan of revelation. I hear Protestants share, I experience the Lord with them, but there is so, so much they do not have as well as the beautiful culture of the liturgical year.

So to get the deal right, in other words, to know that what we are receiving comes from the One True God through His Spirit…we must be attentive to the Whole of Scripture. We must read the Bible in its content and unity in the light of the teachings of the Church, --the Sacred Tradition-- this coming none other than from the Oral Tradition of Jesus Christ Himself to the Apostles, to the Church Fathers, to the bishops and the succession of the laying of hands.

In essence, Jesus Christ is not only prophet and King, He is Eternal Word…the Word Made Flesh Who dwelt among us!!!

You should not give a come back without looking at any historical references of which I gave you. So many Christians think there was some big gap between the early church and the 1500’s…so we in essence had no shepherds…thus, Christ did a lousy job.

The Christ I believe in did not found a 5% church with interpretations based on bias and whimsy. And you cannot perceive the tremendous damage Sola Scriptura has done to Christianity and our populations, our families…

Christ instituted His Church, He gave not one apostle, an individual, but 12, and they had their followers who they chose and knew would not deceive them and create new heresies…

Open your heart and soul and start reading ancient Christian history, the beginnings of the Mass, the first reference coming from St. Justinian around 150 a.d. Where did the word sacramentum come from…? What happened around this word? Have you seen the pictographs in the catacombs…

Think that the Breaking of Bread of the Eucharist gave new Life to its believers, formly enslaved by the ancient Roman life, coming to life in the tombs of the dead in the very heart of Rome…both magnificent and evil, whose effects we see today.

You cannot condemn what you do not know. If our Masses and saints and beliefs were fake, we would have died out long ago…consider the Code of Hammurabi many theists refer to…and it died out long before the 10 commandments.

Check out Hebrewcatholic.org and see why they are becoming not only believers in Christ, but in His church…the Jews. Read Roy Shoeman’s book, ‘Salvation is from the Jews’…they experience they are more Jewish now in the Catholic church than before…

I don’t think we can dialogue without you studying history more.

Blessings!

 

[KathleenGee]

I thought I would add this in…I shared it on another thread…

Here are pictures of St. Bernadette, before and after her death 130 years ago in 1879.\

www.catholicpilgrims.com/lourdes/lourdes_photo_aa.htm

In reference to Martin Luther, he began the Sola Scriptura movement, taking out 7 books of the bible that took hundreds of years and many people and translators to form…and said we are saved by faith alone…He took out Sirach, Maccabees, St. James, and others all to suit his idea…and an angel appeared to him warning him not to do that…

I don’t know what you mean by baggage, but I do perceive an obvious bias…And yes, the Eucharist is also Thanksgiving… a memorial, a Be’Kaa…the Catholic/Orthodox liturgies are the fulfillment of ancient liturgies…Catholics are fulfilled Jews…as John Paul II said.

How about reading the martyrdom of Ss. Perpetua and Felicity in Carthage around the year 200 A.D. It was written in Perpetua’s own words…

Sometimes I think there is misunderstanding many times by protestants because of how they have been taught…no amount of reason can help.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Oh really
So friend you know more and know better than God Himself, the Apostles [Mt. 26:26-28, Mk. 14: 14-24, Lk. 22: 19-21, Paul 1 Cor. 11: 23-29. And then there is John Chapter six.
editedJohn.6 Verses 35 to 69Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me; and him who comes to me I will not cast out. …The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, `I have come down from heaven’?”

Jesus answered them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. [47] Truly, truly I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. [48] I am the bread of life. This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die. [51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh." The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I [GOD] say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54] he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. [55] For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.** [56] **He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. [57] As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. [58] This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever." [59] Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” [61] But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at it, said to them, "Do you take offense at this? [62] Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he was before? [The Post Pentecost assention of Christ] [63]]It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. [64] But there are some of you that do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that would betray him.
This is the actual meaning of verse 63:
**Haydock’s Commentary: "The flesh profiteth nothing. Dead flesh, separated from the spirit, in the gross manner they supposed they were to eat his flesh,edit[3] but they do not imply a figurative or metaphorical presence ]only:thumbsup:. The manner of Christ’s presence is spiritual and under the outward appearances of bread and wine; but yet he is there truly and really present, by a change of the substance of bread and wine into the substance of his body and blood, which truly and really become our spiritual food, and are truly and really received in the holy sacrament.
edit
tJesus is speaking of Himself; unless you feed on the living word of God you have no life in you; He did not say this is my real flesh and my real blood; you must eat and drink that you may have life. Remember the woman at the well; Jesus made the following statements:
Jesus answered and said to her, ***“If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.” ***…where then do You get that living water? “You are not greater than our father Jacob, are You, who gave us the well, and drank of it himself and his sons and his cattle?” Jesus answered and said to her, "Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again; but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.".…“Sir, give me this water, so I will not be thirsty nor come all the way here to draw.”…"But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

The words that He speaks are “Spirit and life”; the flesh profits nothing.

1Co 15:45 So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam {became} a life-giving spirit.

If you were able and willing to study the NT you would find that Eating & Drinking are equivalents to Believing and Equivalent to Abiding in Christ

“He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and He who believes in Me shall never thirst…Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life” As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

The “actual” meaning of verse 63 is obvious, even to Peter. The WORDS you SPEAK are LIFE.
"But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life."
“If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.”**

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Well, you’re right, in a sense. The people that walked away were disturbed at the concept of literally eating Jesus’ flesh and blood – so much so that they couldn’t handle the Truth and walked away. The disciples were probably just as shocked but stayed, because, as Peter said, “To whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.”

It was the summary that Jesus made in verse 63, that Peter is affirming, which is not the literal eating of flesh.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

From Peter, through the ECFs, to toady, Catholics have ALWAYS received Holy Communion with the knowledge we still profess. That is, Christ present, complete and real, as He taught the Apostles who passed the Sacred Tradition down to us.

You seem to think we developed this understanding in the past decades!

The ECFs were all Catholics!..and you have to BE Catholic to UNDERSTAND the context and premise under which they ‘speak’!!

Your suggestion that their context in not understood by Catholics is,…well,…stupid or laughable; one or the other.

Probably why that sacrificial priesthood of your faith is all over the NT; whereas the Levitical priesthood in the OT one can barely find.

I do agree with you that you would have to be Catholic to see and understand Catholic; although that is not exactly how you put it.

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Timothy Piper,

I appears we are at an impasse. Believers and non-believers in the Eucharist have come to a fork in the road. One road leads to Heaven and one road leads to Hell. We all have the option to choose our own destiny. I wish you well.

Eucharist simply means thanks; in the context of Scripture it is to be thankful and remember His death, the flesh and blood poured out on my behalf and I am thankful and have taken the narrowest of paths and I did struggle to get through; how about you?

 

[Timothy_Piper]

The fact is friends, that the Protestant’s in Obstinate disbelief of the Real Presence give clear and indisputable evidence that they are NOT GUIDED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT [in relation to understanding what the bible actually say’s. INDEED, there position on “The Real Presence of Christ in Holy Communion,” may well be the GREATEST PARADOX in the history of the world!

They take from the bible what is literal and choose to translate it and then turn around and take one single verse Jn. 6:63] which requires PROPER translation… literally. This is Simply ASTOUNDING!

v. 63 properly understood is saying that actual human flesh has NO SPITITUAL BENEFIT. BUT it is the Glorified and Risen Christ that Catholics consume.

Despite the exceeding clear and [for Protestants, painfully specific] words of A Perfect “all-Wise, all-Knowing” God, incapable of error! They freely choose to hold to the position that “God does not mean what He clearly, repeatedly SAID, which in AFFIRMED by EACH AND EVERY NT author [who too are made to “not understand what Christ is saying“, despite the FACT that [except for John, who was burned in a boiling oil, but miraculously survived] actually GAVE THERE VERY LIFES IF BELIEF of the Dogma of the CC.

** Matt. 26 to 28:** 26 "Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.” And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you; for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”

** Mk. 14: 22- 24** “And as they were eating, he took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to them, and said, “Take; this is my body.” And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, and they all drank of it. And he said to them, " This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.”

** Lk. 22: 19 to 21** “And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, " This is my body which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” [20] And likewise the cup after supper, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you I s the new covenant in my blood.”

** John 6: 41 ** The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.”

v 47: “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life”

**v. 51"I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh." **

v. 52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” v. 53 "So Jesus said to them, ***Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; *** **[55] For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. /COLOR] [EVEN GOD, CHRIST CAN’T BE MORE SPECIFIC AND CLEAR ! v. 56 “He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.” **[PRECISLY what happens in Catholic Holy Communion!] **

And then "many disciples left Him! Jesus did NOT call them back. OPPS! I didn’t mean that. NO He turned to the Apostles and asked do you wish to desert me too? Thy said NO! Knowing exactly, because He is God, and able to do any GOOD thing!

1Cor.11: 23 - 29 ** " For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, " This is my body which is for you.** ** Do this in remembrance of me." ** In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the ** new covenant in my blood.** Do this, as often as you drink ** it, in remembrance of me.” **[26] For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. *** Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. *** In ORDER for one to “PROFANE” "the Body and Blood of our Lord [Paul here is speaking of the Consecrated Bread and Wine] They MUST BE the Real Glorified Body and Blood of Christ! THEY CANNOT BE just signs and symbols… An IMPOSSIBLITY!

READ IT IN THE KJB!

Love and prayers,

Pat

Who could argue with such great reasoning?

 

[Timothy_Piper]

Timothy Piper,

Have you ever seen the Liturgy of St. James the Lesser who was head of the Church of Jerusalem, that was all Jewish at the time?

Do you know that St. Iraneous was a pupil of St. John the Evangelist? Did you know the Maronite Catholics still celebrate the Liturgy of St. John??

Have you ever read ancient manuscripts of worship? Do you know that the power of the Epiclesus at Mass, the laying on of hands over the bread and wine only can be transubstantiated by a priest whose bishop laid hands on him?

In other words, the power the priests have to consecrate the Bread and Wine come from the Apostles themselves.

The laying of hands came from the apostles down to the bishops to their priests in succession from the original anointing of the Last Supper, the institution of the sacraments of the Eucharist and Holy Orders. Without a bishop’s laying of hands on the ordained, they cannot sacramentally function as priests.

If you would only go back to ancient manuscripts, documents, art, culture, diaries, the paper trail all goes back to the origins of the priestly ministry, the fulfillment of liturgy in the Breaking of Bread…the Eucharist was so sacred that people called it ‘The Secret’. Reading the liturgies, you will see prayers that are in use today, an evolving format into the Mass.

The Baby Jesus was placed in an animal feeder…symbolizing He would become food for us, Bread of Life.

Without physical, objective elements of the Sacraments and the administrative institution of the Church, everythimg is subjective.

Are you also implying there was no true church or faith because of the priesthood and the sacraments until Luther?..

Operating as an individual, with individual instruction, there is no church. And without the Church to guide, the sheep are scattered and lost.

Luther was a man plagued by scruples and obsessive thinking. He did work for reform. But the church also knew that our faith saves us, but it must be an authentic faith that becomes objective…living out the gospel. Where was Luther when he got his great inspiration? They even have his toilet on display in Worms.

What about the breakdown of family because of Sola Scriptura, of man breaking away from God and His church to be refined, to find his value in works of this world??? Then divorce was sanctioned, more breaking away, contraception, a divided and fractured Christianity. I read another post that some 50 new protestant groups are applying for non tax status a day in America.

Somebody hit you really bad. You need to pray to the Lord to remove anything in your heart because it is blinding you from even researching historical facts.

Check out Hebrewcatholic.org and see how the Jews are coming into the Catholic Church and are now seeing so much symbolism of it from the Old Testament.

As Pope John Paul II said, you always have chaff with the wheat…and the great challenge in life as you get older, and you do get burned or betrayed by those you trusted in the Church, that again our faith in Christ is a work each one of us must work out…that we have to keep our focus always on Christ and the bigger picture and not expect so much from weak people. After all, didn’t the Psalms say over and over again not to put your trust in man?

I see you as someone who trusts in man, in your own way of thinking…

Heard of the 12 Steps? We have our neighbor to remove our planks…we all have blind spots. I don’t trust my own way of looking at things and I always consult when I think I am going on thin ice…it is a discipline I have learned being Catholic. I am not so self-willed as I was when I was young.

So, in dealing with scandals or wars as a Catholic, we must always keep our eyes on Christ in the sacraments, in the Gospel.

I personally believe it is Sola Scriptura that is destroying the unity of Christians in this country. I heard a Jewish radio commentator say he wondered what was wrong with the Christians in this country, why we can’t come together and overcome our national problems. Sola Scriptura.

It took the Church 400 years to be established. Then we had 200 more years of the Dark Ages…why was that? Because Europe was under continual siege by barbarians. How can you construct? The Bible itself was the work of the Apostles, the bishops, the Early Church Fathers. Yet Luther took it on his own to remove 7 books because they didn’t fit in with his one idea…faith without works…scandal…

The Great Heresy of earliest Christian times was not believing in the Eucharist…making what is real merely an arbitrary symbol…even that memorial communion bread in services is dumped in the garbage afterwards…

So I challenge you to do some honest, open historical research of the early Christian church. It has brought many into the Church. Get hold of an ancient Catechism and see how the one we use today is no different. Do you think the early Church Fathers who were pupils of the original Apostles, would then in turn refute them and start teaching heresy??? That doesn’t make sense.

I would ask you to ask God to seal you with the Spirit of Truth; AKA the holy Spirit, which is the ONLY guide to the believer of Jesus and the gospel, which is the true Truth Teacher. Your first sentence is in error, for the James, the overseer of Jerusalem is not the lessor James spoken of as one of the 12, but rather the James, the Lord’s brother.

It appears to me that you all seem to understand the ECF teaching as well as you seem to understand the writers, prophets and Jesus teachings. By asking one a couple of simple questions. What would you tell me if i said I want to be saved, but do not know how or what to do; can you help me? Is the Bible without error? Does it have enough truth to lead or guide me to heaven?

 

[Timothy_Piper]

KathleenGee ,

Great Post. You appear to be very learned in Scripture and Catholic teachings.

I would assume you drew your conclusion because you examined carefully what she said and found similar sources to confirm them and weighed it carefully before you drew the conclusion.