Catholics leave due to Social teachings?

[Abu]

hylandgl #41
Beautifully summarised.

 

[JLCHawk]

I would like to differ on the comment that one party does a better job helping the poor. The Democratic (liberal) party favors helping the poor using government as the primary vehicle. The Republican (conservative) party favors the private sector, creating jobs to remove people from the welfare rolls, growing the pie so more can share. This is generalizing for brevity, but the old canard that Republicans and/or conservatives do not want to help the poor still exists thanks to a media that votes 90% liberal.

 

[firstmode]

I can understand this, and probably is why alot of people leave the church.

My family is all catholic, and I was raised catholic, went to catholic school for most of my education, however I cannot remember one instance where I felt Gods presence or help in any way, even when I was going thru tough times in my early 20s, I prayed until I cried many times, and still…nothing.

I am a good person though, yet as of right now, I can say that I have never once felt God or seen anything he has done in my life.

But when I talk to my dad about what he thinks about church, he claims when he goes to mass every week, he leaves feeling ‘filled up’ and revived. He also said he felt this as a child going to mass, so this makes me wonder why I have never felt this, especially as a child, pre-teenager.

As a result of this, I used to wonder seriously if I was an atheist, but I am not, as I do believe in God/Satan, but just wonder if we truly are interpreting the bible correctly, plus Seems strange to me the vatican keeps certain information about God and the bible in general from us or doesnt talk about some topics,or bans some topics ( one example in particular…The existence of other tribes and cities at the same time when adam and eve were in the garden)

It just seems to me the catholic church in general is run like a big corporation versus the church God actually intended. I think this is the reason the vatican keeps alot of information from the people and keeps it locked up in secret vaults, like it doesnt want people to learn of these things.

Mikekle,

Have you considered the Catholic Charismatic Movement?:

chicagorenewal.org/

Charismatic Prayer Groups

Charismatic Prayer Groups are faith communities consisting of individuals who have been baptized in the Holy Spirit, who strongly desire to keep the experience of Pentecost alive through the exercise of their charismatic gifts, and who earnestly desire to become strong disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ. Catholic Charismatic Prayer groups affiliated with the CCRCC are under the spiritual direction of the bishop in their diocese, and in full accord with the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. The leadership and format style for individual groups varies according to the needs of each particular group. The format usually includes: a significant time for praise and worship, the presence of charismatic gifts (tongues, prophecy, healing prayer), spiritual teachings, witnessing to the favors of the Lord, and intercessory prayer. There are approximately 70 Catholic Charismatic Prayer Groups of various ethnic backgrounds located throughout the Chicagoland area. For information about a group near you, please call the CCRCC office at 708-209-1199. You may also download the Prayer Group Listing, which has the name, address and contact information of each prayer group.

“Discover and experience
how God’s love transforms
our lives. Pain can be turned
into peace, weakness into
strength, despair into hope,
and sorrow into joy.”

Catholic Charismatic Renewal Center for Chicago

chicagorenewal.org/spiritual_growth/2013/04/he-is-the-one-who-baptizes-in-the-holy-spirit/

He is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit
Fr. Martin

Fr. Francis Martin

All four Gospels agree that John the
Baptist compared his ministry to
that of Jesus by describing his
ministry as baptizing in water
whereas the one for whom he was
preparing the way would baptize
in the Holy Spirit (“and fire”)…

 

[FAB]

I guess that the Buddha and the Hindu gods must have know what they were doing as well, if not more so, considering how long those faiths have been around.

There are no Budda or Hindu gods, there is only one God, who became man and we know him as Christ.
God id God with no begining or end. The God all people worship is the same.

 

[michaelhager]

I can understand this, and probably is why alot of people leave the church.

My family is all catholic, and I was raised catholic, went to catholic school for most of my education, however I cannot remember one instance where I felt Gods presence or help in any way, even when I was going thru tough times in my early 20s, I prayed until I cried many times, and still…nothing.

I am a good person though, yet as of right now, I can say that I have never once felt God or seen anything he has done in my life.

But when I talk to my dad about what he thinks about church, he claims when he goes to mass every week, he leaves feeling ‘filled up’ and revived. He also said he felt this as a child going to mass, so this makes me wonder why I have never felt this, especially as a child, pre-teenager.

As a result of this, I used to wonder seriously if I was an atheist, but I am not, as I do believe in God/Satan, but just wonder if we truly are interpreting the bible correctly, plus Seems strange to me the vatican keeps certain information about God and the bible in general from us or doesnt talk about some topics,or bans some topics ( one example in particular…The existence of other tribes and cities at the same time when adam and eve were in the garden)

It just seems to me the catholic church in general is run like a big corporation versus the church God actually intended. I think this is the reason the vatican keeps alot of information from the people and keeps it locked up in secret vaults, like it doesn’t want people to learn of these things.

This is sad.

I married a cradle Catholic. I was Protestant and have since converted to Catholicism.

Here is my take, based only on my personal experience.

Born into a Catholic family, children are taken to mass and told to sit still and behave. They have no concept of what is really going on, but after a while, they begin to learn when to pray, when to kneel, when to stand and sing the hymns. They get instruction and eventually receive first communion, and they get more instruction and are confirmed. But let’s face it. They’re children and they’d much rather be out playing with their friends after school than going to religious ed classes.

By contrast, many converts like myself discover the truths of the Catholic Church and begin to hunger for more information and details. I’ve never had a question about the faith that has not been adequately answered. The Vatican has treasure troves of information, artifacts and knowledge that they do indeed keep “hidden away” if only to protect it from damage, not to keep it from the people.

And here is the fundamental difference… Many Catholics, especially cradle Catholics feel that the church, the mass and the teachings of the church are comprised of a thousand rules that one must follow to be good Catholics. They see their Protestant neighbors worshiping freely to contemporary music and high powered sermons.

What I see however are not a thousand rules to keep me in line, but rather a thousand beautiful gifts that allow me to be closer to my God. I don’t have to go to confession, I GET to. I don’t have to sit in adoration, it is a wonderful PRIVILEGE so sit with my Lord. I’m not required to pray, I am honored to be able to talk directly to He who made me.

When you approach your religion this way and realize that all of the things the church teaches us are not requirements, but wonderful tools to help us achieve our path to our life after death, in the presence of our Lord, then every mass is a gift, every good thing you do in your life is for the Glory of God and every Eucharist is one more step in your path to complete and final salvation.

Pretty soon, Sunday mass won’t be enough for you. Pretty soon you’ll be looking for excuses to get to daily mass as well. And after each one you will indeed be restored and refreshed in the presence of God.

You simply have to open your mind to it…

“Jesus is here, with His arms open wide
You can see Him with your heart if you stop looking with your eyes.
He’s left it up to you, He’s done all that he can,
Is there any way you can say no to this man?”

How Could You Say No by Julie Miller

Michael Hager

 

[Cojuanco]

I think the problem is that the secular and Protestant mentalities in our society (America is culturally a nation of secularized Protestants) see rules in themselves as a problem, especially to the individual - our politicians know this, which is why the best way to tick off Americans are to talk of regulations.

But the truth is, the ‘rules’ The Church declares - don’t commit adultery, don’t abort your child, pay your workers just wages, don’t mistreat even prisoners or illegal immigrants - are necessary for our spiritual good. Just as many laws are there for our own physical good. They’re like the notices at train stations to stay behind they yellow line. That rule’s not in place just to be petty - that’s there because if we’re over the yellow line, there’s a good chance a passing train will knock us over or kill us! But they see people over the line all the time, and nothing happening to them - but when the train comes, who will be in the hospital?

 

[AnimalSpirits]

There are no Budda or Hindu gods, there is only one God, who became man and we know him as Christ.
God id God with no begining or end. The God all people worship is the same.

All I’m saying is other faiths have been around long before Christianity- thus, one shouldn’t use Christianity’s longevity to justify its legitimacy.

 

[AnimalSpirits]

We have seen the testimony of prime witnesses to the Resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth in post #28.

Written over 100 years after the fact… Tje writings of an early apologist are of little more value than the bible itself in terms of proof.

Is this the sort of proof you would accept as evidence for other religions? If there were records of people claiming to directly interact with the Aztec gods, would you begin worshiping them?

 

[Abu]

AnimalSpirits #48
Originally Posted by Abu
We have seen the testimony of prime witnesses to the Resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth in post #28.

*Written over 100 years after the fact… Tje writings of an early apologist are of little more value than the bible itself in terms of proof.
Is this the sort of proof you would accept as evidence for other religions? If there were records of people claiming to directly interact with the Aztec gods, would you begin worshiping them? *

Perhaps myopia is present, as the reality is that the prime witnesses in his day to whom Quadratus refers in Post #28 “were still around who had been cured or raised form the dead by Jesus” Himself. [Fr William G Most, *Free From All Error, Franciscan Marytown Press, 1982, p 12-13].

The reality is that:
Fact 1: There was a man called Jesus.
Fact 2: He claimed to be a messenger sent from God.
Fact 3: He did enough to prove that He was such a messenger.
Fact 4: Crowds followed Jesus and He had an inner circle to whom he spoke much more.
Fact 5: He commissioned His followers to continue His teaching and founded His Church.
Fact 6: Jesus affirmed that God would protect that teaching.

The writings of these facts—the Gospels – are comparable with other ancient documents from writers such as Caesar, Tacitus, Thucydides and others, they are all reliable as history.

Historically, they prove that the messenger sent from God worked many miracles to support His mission and teaching to the extent of forgiving sins. God as Truth cannot provide such power to prove falsehood, so the claims of Jesus are true, culminating in the fact of His resurrection from the dead.

So from the reliability of the Gospels as history, we now know that:

1. An infallible Church was founded by the Son of God
2. That infallible Church teaches that the Bible, as She has given us, is the inspired Word of God.

 

[DMC12]

No, most Catholics leave the Church because they think secular life delivers all they need. Sad but true.

I can tell you about that, I have had my hard times with the Faith, and when i analized it,I think those are for acting like an atheist with more responsabilities.

i think it might be found useful so i’ll explain what does that means:
well, it simple, you forget about how God loves you, trying to do everything perfect by yourself, and pretty much what an atheist would do normally, but also having to follow the commandments, and fearing God’s Judgement and the devil.
So pretty much the atheist idea of not having anyone to report becomes more and more appealing. after all someone who does not trust God will feel the religious life very hard. but when you start trusting God, thing began to get better.

 

[Boatswain2PA]

This is sad.

I married a cradle Catholic. I was Protestant and have since converted to Catholicism.

Here is my take, based only on my personal experience.

Born into a Catholic family, children are taken to mass and told to sit still and behave. They have no concept of what is really going on, but after a while, they begin to learn when to pray, when to kneel, when to stand and sing the hymns. They get instruction and eventually receive first communion, and they get more instruction and are confirmed. But let’s face it. They’re children and they’d much rather be out playing with their friends after school than going to religious ed classes.

By contrast, many converts like myself discover the truths of the Catholic Church and begin to hunger for more information and details. I’ve never had a question about the faith that has not been adequately answered. The Vatican has treasure troves of information, artifacts and knowledge that they do indeed keep “hidden away” if only to protect it from damage, not to keep it from the people.

And here is the fundamental difference… Many Catholics, especially cradle Catholics feel that the church, the mass and the teachings of the church are comprised of a thousand rules that one must follow to be good Catholics. They see their Protestant neighbors worshiping freely to contemporary music and high powered sermons.

What I see however are not a thousand rules to keep me in line, but rather a thousand beautiful gifts that allow me to be closer to my God. I don’t have to go to confession, I GET to. I don’t have to sit in adoration, it is a wonderful PRIVILEGE so sit with my Lord. I’m not required to pray, I am honored to be able to talk directly to He who made me.

When you approach your religion this way and realize that all of the things the church teaches us are not requirements, but wonderful tools to help us achieve our path to our life after death, in the presence of our Lord, then every mass is a gift, every good thing you do in your life is for the Glory of God and every Eucharist is one more step in your path to complete and final salvation.

Pretty soon, Sunday mass won’t be enough for you. Pretty soon you’ll be looking for excuses to get to daily mass as well. And after each one you will indeed be restored and refreshed in the presence of God.

You simply have to open your mind to it…

“Jesus is here, with His arms open wide
You can see Him with your heart if you stop looking with your eyes.
He’s left it up to you, He’s done all that he can,
Is there any way you can say no to this man?”

How Could You Say No by Julie Miller

Michael Hager

That is a beautiful post. Thank you!

 

[Tigg]

All I’m saying is other faiths have been around long before Christianity- thus, one shouldn’t use Christianity’s longevity to justify its legitimacy.

I think this statement can be argued because God’s salvation plan happened incrementally starting with the expulsion of Adam and Eve from the garden and the promise of a Savior. Yes, the Incarnation was the physical presence of Christ on earth but nonetheless He was not created, but the same essence (substance and equality) of the eternal Godhead. Revelation reached its apex in Christ and ended with the death of the last apostle. What ever other gods were created in the minds of men, or when this occurred, does nothing to alter the timetable of God’s redemptive plan from its inception.

 

[AnimalSpirits]

The reality is that:
Fact 1: There was a man called Jesus.
Fact 2: He claimed to be a messenger sent from God.
Fact 3: He did enough to prove that He was such a messenger.
Fact 4: Crowds followed Jesus and He had an inner circle to whom he spoke much more.
Fact 5: He commissioned His followers to continue His teaching and founded His Church.
Fact 6: Jesus affirmed that God would protect that teaching.

You could just as easily be describing Muhammad or Joseph Smith. Both certainly claimed to be messengers of a deity, and both attracted quite a following.I’d argue that Muhammad in particular has a much more impressive track record than Jesus in that regard- and the Hadiths contain a litany of miracles surrounding Muhammad.

 

[Tigg]

What I see however are not a thousand rules to keep me in line, but rather a thousand beautiful gifts that allow me to be closer to my God. I don’t have to go to confession, I GET to. I don’t have to sit in adoration, it is a wonderful PRIVILEGE so sit with my Lord. I’m not required to pray, I am honored to be able to talk directly to He who made me.

When you approach your religion this way and realize that all of the things the church teaches us are not requirements, but wonderful tools to help us achieve our path to our life after death, in the presence of our Lord, then every mass is a gift, every good thing you do in your life is for the Glory of God and every Eucharist is one more step in your path to complete and final salvation.

Pretty soon, Sunday mass won’t be enough for you. Pretty soon you’ll be looking for excuses to get to daily mass as well. And after each one you will indeed be restored and refreshed in the presence of God.

Michael Hager

So based upon your most beautiful experience and post, could we possibly say that Catholics leave because they have lost their first love of God? That politics and the culture and the deception and noise of the world has dimmed their faith to the point where the fundamental and first commandment of God “**LOVE **the Lord your God with all your mind and all your heart and with all your strength” is no longer sufficient motivation to be a member in full communion with His church?

 

[Abu]

AnimalSpirits #53
Muhammad or Joseph Smith. Both certainly claimed to be messengers of a deity

Such claims are a dome a dozen – how puerile.

Not only are the facts of Jesus miracles recorded by His own Apostles who were present – Saints Matthew and John were companions of Christ, but Saints Mark and Luke lived in constant contact with His contemporaries.

His miracles “were so frequent, the eyewitnesses so numerous, and the evidence so stark, that not even Christ’s enemies disputed the fact of their occurrence. Instead they ascribed them to the power of the devil, or defied Him to perform another one in His own favour.” (See Mt 12:24; 27:39-42; Jn 11:47). Apologetics and Catholic Doctrine, Sheehan/Joseph, Saint Austin Press, 2001, p 104].

No other religious founder claimed to be the one God – not Mohammed of Islam, not in Hinduism, not in Buddhism, not in Taoism, not in Confucianism.

The failure of Mohammed’s Koran and the Muslim theologians was the rejection of Jesus of Nazareth as the Divine Son of God, and thus the Church which He founded which has all the truths that mankind needs, for as Peter Kreeft points out Mohammed and the Koran are essentially another Moses (lawgiver) and another law, so denying the mediator between God and man – Christ. The essentials missing are grace, salvation, redemption.

Denied are three main dogmas: the Trinity, the Incarnation, and the Resurrection.

 

[AnimalSpirits]

Such claims are a dome a dozen – how puerile.

You’re the one who made a big deal out of people making such claims and them being believed.

Not only are the facts of Jesus miracles recorded by His own Apostles who were present – Saints Matthew and John were companions of Christ, but Saints Mark and Luke lived in constant contact with His contemporaries.

His miracles “were so frequent, the eyewitnesses so numerous, and the evidence so stark, that not even Christ’s enemies disputed the fact of their occurrence. Instead they ascribed them to the power of the devil, or defied Him to perform another one in His own favour.” (See Mt 12:24; 27:39-42; Jn 11:47). Apologetics and Catholic Doctrine, Sheehan/Joseph, Saint Austin Press, 2001, p 104].

No other religious founder claimed to be the one God – not Mohammed of Islam, not in Hinduism, not in Buddhism, not in Taoism, not in Confucianism.

The failure of Mohammed’s Koran and the Muslim theologians was the rejection of Jesus of Nazareth as the Divine Son of God, and thus the Church which He founded which has all the truths that mankind needs, for as Peter Kreeft points out Mohammed and the Koran are essentially another Moses (lawgiver) and another law, so denying the mediator between God and man – Christ. The essentials missing are grace, salvation, redemption.

Denied are three main dogmas: the Trinity, the Incarnation, and the Resurrection.

Mohammad and the litany of miracles associated with him are extensively recorded in the Hadiths- if such evidence is valid for Christianity, certainly we can apply it to Islam.

I don’t particularly see why the claims of the founder are relevant. If Mohammad had claimed to be Allah made flesh, would that make Islam more persuasive to you? If you’re rejecting his claims, I don’t see why making a grander claim should matter.

 

[Abu]

The claimed Mohammedan “miracles” have no evidence and no history. The multitudinous Jihadists in Islam mandate that “unbelievers” should be enslaved to sharia law. How malevolent!

The crux is simply that the only great founder of a religion who seriously claimed to be God is historically recorded to have risen from the dead and the eyewitnesses willingly suffered death because of this fact.

One of the more recent miracles recorded by an atheist eyewitness in the modern era is historically recorded – the miracle of the sun at Fatima.

Perhaps you haven’t heard of real miracles. But you didn’t have to be a Catholic to experience this one:
Eyewitnesses in the modern era saw, and it is historically recorded, the miracle of the sun at Fatima:
As Avelino deAlmeida, the chief editor of “O Seculo,” the large “liberal” anticlerical and masonic daily of Lisbon, writes:
“Before the dazzled eyes of the people, whose attitude transported us to biblical times, and who, dumb-founded, heads uncovered, contemplated the blue of the sky, the sun trembled, it mad estrange and abrupt movements, outside of all cosmic laws, “the sun danced”, according to the typical expression of the peasants…(2)"

Attacked violently by all the anticlerical press, Avelino de Almeida renewed his testimony, fifteen days later, in his review in Ilustração Portuguesa. This time he illustrated his account with a dozen photographs of the huge ecstatic crowd, and repeated as a refrain throughout his article: “I saw…I saw…I saw.” And he concluded fortuitously: "Miracle, as the people shouted? Natural phenomenon, as the experts say? For the moment, that does not concern me, I am only saying what I saw… The rest is a matter for Science and the Church.” (3)
Note:
2) O Seculo of October 15, 1917.
3) Article of October 29, 1917.
See: pattimaguirearmstrong.com/2013/09/pope-franciss-sos-to-blessed-mother.html