Catholics must disregard Scripture to satisfy their doctrine.

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If Sola Scripture is going to be done correctly…should people even really discuss the Bible? I mean, if the Bible is enough, then no one should be allowed to talk about it. This would make evangelizing easy because all you would have to do is pass out Bibles and never say a word.

Shame on the Apostles for preaching the Gospel before they compiled the Bible.

(Said completely in jest with my tongue-in-cheek)
Hope I did not offend anyone.
 
I’m not sure if replying to this is quite the right thing to do - I’m not sure of the point of this thread - I don’t believe this whole online “Catholic Answers” was put out there for others to come and try to dislodge Catholic’s Faith (which if this was an attempt was a very poor one as other’s have responded with most of the correct answers). I am no expert - I do study quite a lot about the Catholic Faith but to me, the Faith is something that can never truly be mastered it is something that is learned throughout life. There is one thing I wanted to say in response to many of the comments made - that is that the Bible has been interpreted many times not only from Aramaic but also from Greek and other languages. There are going to be cultural differences between what is meant from the Aramaic to the English. For instance you made a comment about Jesus not being an only child. Yes, the Bible does state that He had brothers but from that language, at the time the use of the word “Brothers and Sisters” denoted anything from an actual brother to someone as far off as a second or third cousin and beyond. Everyonoe else seems to have hit upon everything else as far as answers - but I get the feeling the poster didn’t want answers - the poster wanted us to question our Faith. I’ve asked questions - I think it’s great to ask questions about the faith - but none of these were posed as questions - just statements. There are many things about my Faith as a Catholic that I still question - I’m just glad I have a forum in which to pose these questions - people that accept things blindly would not have even been able to stand up to this kind of questioning of the Faith.
 
**Catholics Say:

The Eucharist ceases to be
bread when consecrated and
becomes the flesh of Christ.
A metaphysical change takes
place.

The Scriptues Say:

Jesus himself says, "The bread which comes from Heaven is my flesh. **

**RIGHT! And it is this bread/flesh we receive in the Holy Eucharist.

As far as the “brothers” of Jesus, there are many places in Scripture, such as Matthew 1:2, where “brothers” do not have the same mother.**
 
tGette said:
If Sola Scripture is going to be done correctly…should people even really discuss the Bible? I mean, if the Bible is enough, then no one should be allowed to talk about it. This would make evangelizing easy because all you would have to do is pass out Bibles and never say a word.

Shame on the Apostles for preaching the Gospel before they compiled the Bible.

(Said completely in jest with my tongue-in-cheek)
Hope I did not offend anyone.
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I was baptized in the Lutheran church. I cherish the firm foundation in the scripture it gave me.

One of the baptismal promises the sponsers (Lutheran have infant baptism) makes is that they will put the scripture in the hands of the baptized. I think it was my niece’s baptism when those words struck me, how post Reformation. Until the 14th century (i.e. the invention of printing) NO ONE could afford to have a copy of the scripture to put in those hands.

yet the Church was passed on by word of mouth for all those generations, by the vast majority of Christians.

I also have to admit, that Bible Protestant that I was, didn’t recognize a Prayer in the Mass that I heard when I went to Latin school and fell in love with: “Lord, I am not worthy to receive You, but only say the word and I shall be healed.” Lk 7:6-7 I had to convert to Orthodoxy before I put two and two together and came up with four (I have a copy of the Divine Liturgy, that has all the Bible verses or allusions in the text of the DL, which is practically all of it, and that’s not counting the lectionary).
 
ryecroft said:
I’m not sure if replying to this is quite the right thing to do - I’m not sure of the point of this thread - I don’t believe this whole online “Catholic Answers” was put out there for others to come and try to dislodge Catholic’s Faith (which if this was an attempt was a very poor one as other’s have responded with most of the correct answers). I am no expert - I do study quite a lot about the Catholic Faith but to me, the Faith is something that can never truly be mastered it is something that is learned throughout life. There is one thing I wanted to say in response to many of the comments made - that is that the Bible has been interpreted many times not only from Aramaic but also from Greek and other languages. There are going to be cultural differences between what is meant from the Aramaic to the English. For instance you made a comment about Jesus not being an only child. Yes, the Bible does state that He had brothers but from that language, at the time the use of the word “Brothers and Sisters” denoted anything from an actual brother to someone as far off as a second or third cousin and beyond. Everyonoe else seems to have hit upon everything else as far as answers - but I get the feeling the poster didn’t want answers - the poster wanted us to question our Faith. I’ve asked questions - I think it’s great to ask questions about the faith - but none of these were posed as questions - just statements. There are many things about my Faith as a Catholic that I still question - I’m just glad I have a forum in which to pose these questions - people that accept things blindly would not have even been able to stand up to this kind of questioning of the Faith.
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The unexamined life is not worth living.

The unexamined faith is not worth believing.

No, I don’t think the OP wanted answers, but just wanted to raise questions about our Faith (I’m talking Orthodox and those in communion with the Vatican: we were both equally targets).

Not knowing is OK. I remember trying to learn everything before embracing Orthodoxy, until I realized I can’t drink the ocean.

So I don’t know all the answers. But I now know who does, and where to look and ask. Ask and you shall receive.
 
Amen, ryecroft!

Knowledge of faith is definitely something one grows in. Just as our knowledge of God will always increase because there is an infinite number of things to learn about God.

Isa Almisry:
Thank you for correcting me concerning the tomb of Mary. I was not sure if I was mistaken or remembered what I learned wrong…I guess which would make me mistaken…lol. Either way…thank you!
 
tGette said:
Amen, ryecroft!

Knowledge of faith is definitely something one grows in. Just as our knowledge of God will always increase because there is an infinite number of things to learn about God.

Isa Almisry:
Thank you for correcting me concerning the tomb of Mary. I was not sure if I was mistaken or remembered what I learned wrong…I guess which would make me mistaken…lol. Either way…thank you!
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No problem. The tomb of the Theotokos is at the foot of the Mt. of Olives, and it goes deep underground.
For some pictures:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary%27s_Tomb

Today (actually now yesterday) we Orthodox on the New Calendar began the Dormition fast, in honor of the Mother of God and preparation for our hope that her Son will one day take us as He took her.
 
Since this thread kind of leaked into oblivion I’ll carry on a casual conversation.

Yeah…I wanted to go visit my uncle in Wisconsin for the Feast of the Assumption, but looks like real life is causing a problem for that. I visited him for the Greek Easter and I fell in love with the rituals and the iconography!

I am quite intrigued with the vast number of times for fasting the Orthodox Church has. I believe fasting as a form of prayer, spiritual discipline, and penance has lost its focus and importance.

Edit
I apologize…what I did above is a blatant disregard for forum rules. Private messages are meant for casual conversation…I am not sure if anyone is even reading this apology who is in control…but I felt it only proper.
 
Rolltide (and by the way, I brought my son up to respect the TIDE and Coach Bryant even though we were both born in California, because I love Coach Bryant and his values) you have done yeoman’s work on this topic. 👍

I’m a simple woman, and so I simply (no pun intended) take Jesus at His Word. He said, at the Last Supper, when He set the pattern for us to follow, “This is My Body” and “This is My Blood” in consecrating the bread and the wine. And it is important to view the entire process within the context of the Passover ritual. If we don’t, we miss a lot.

Jesus meant to be clear at the Last Supper. HE CHANGED EVERYTHING. He meant to speak to ALL ~ the highly educated as well as the non-educated ~ because He was speaking to EVERYONE. This was a VERY IMPORTANT thing that was occurring so there is NO WAY that Jesus would be obscure, speak symbolically, or the like.

Jesus, we need to remember is GOD (I find it strange how many people seem to forget that!) and as such He would, as God has always sought to do, want to draw as many souls as possible to Him. Common sense would dictate, if nothing else does, that Jesus would speak plainly on matters of grave importance. That is certainly what He did at the Last Supper.

Now I, sitting in some lofty College-Educated perch, might declare that I have some special understanding of some thing or another. I believe that is FALSE. Jesus wasn’t speaking to highly-educated people. He was speaking to EVERYONE. I can’t imagine a world where Jesus would send His Message to a select few to understand. He has always sought to draw EVERYONE.

OF COURSE sometimes during His ministry Jesus spoke in parables, but the Last Supper was not one of those times. There is not a scintilla of evidence, either from the words themselves, the construction of the words, or the story itself, that would suggest that the words Jesus spoke at the Last Supper were in any way part of a parable or some sort of symbolic story.

Instead, the words were the documentation of the Mass that we still celebrate today. Those that seek to establish otherwise will need to answer to Jesus someday for why they disregarded His clear commandment.

HE SAID TO “DO THIS”. WE Catholics actually DO because we are the CHURCH that was founded by Jesus Christ. What in the world will be the excuse of those who have ignored His commandment? Those churches that were founded, for whatever reason, by renegades?

There are those who say that the Bible is the “inerrant Word of God” but they also IGNORE this command. How do they answer Jesus when He asks them WHY DID YOU IGNORE ME?

I believe we should pray for all those who have made this mistake and all those who call themselves Christian who have mistakenly ignored the Commands of Our Lord, even if their beliefs are in error, we should pray that they may be enlightened and understand the TRUTH.

Jesus Himself says that He is the Way and the Truth and the Life. Father Corapi tells us that Truth = Jesus. That all the words of the Catechism can be summed up in that one way, that Jesus = Truth.

I don’t know about the rest of you Catholics, but I’m not sure I’ve done my part in proclaiming that Truth. Let’s all do this together. We’re the CHURCH that was founded by Jesus Christ.
 
Rolltide said:
The Sriptures also say:

Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me.”

I took the rest of this from a post of mine from a couple of months ago:

Perhaps it would be helpful to look at what those people closest to the disciples thought about the matter. After all, if you want to interpret the passages in the Bible correctly, it would be useful to see what the first few generations of Christians actually thought.

Catholics believe that Jesus is not just symbolically present in Communion, but actually physically present. You may be interested to note that we are not the only denomination that holds to this view. In fact, about 2/3 of ALL Christians believe this to be true, including the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and some Anglicans and Lutherans. In order to prove the Real Presence, I think it’s essential to look at both what the Bible says and what has historically been true. After all, if it is a corruption, it should be fairly easy to track down at what point it entered into Catholic belief. Looking at what people believed in the very early church would be critical to your argument that it is false.

So, I’m going to begin to answer the question from the historical perspective, and then go back and deal with the Biblical issues. I realize that it will be very important to back up the claim with what’s taught in the Bible, since it is an inspired source. BUT, if we want to know how to correctly interpret that source, we need to see what the apostles and the followers of the apostles thought about how it should be interpreted. If it matters, I’m a professional historian at a small private college in the South, although my area of expertise is Latin America, not the Catholic Church or theology. (Just so you know that my research has some credibility.)
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Your multi-post argument from historical figures is absolutely fantastic, I must say. Seriously, you should save it and use it every time someone objects to the Holy Eucharist. Anyone who continues to object after reading this information is…I don’t know, crazy maybe? Perhaps willfully obstinant is a better description.

Darn good read, thank you.
 
Isa_Almisry said:
No problem. The tomb of the Theotokos is at the foot of the Mt. of Olives, and it goes deep underground.
For some pictures:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary%27s_Tomb

Today (actually now yesterday) we Orthodox on the New Calendar began the Dormition fast, in honor of the Mother of God and preparation for our hope that her Son will one day take us as He took her.
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I read a Roman Catholic book that goes further about the Virgin Mary than what is described by most on this site.
It has Mary’s resurrected body being taken by Jesus to sit on God’s throne in heaven along with the Holy Trinity.
Do you believe this to be true? Is this RCC doctrine?
The book has an “imprimatur” by a Roman Catholic Archbishop on one of the beginning pages.
 
As Protestants are masters of this this kind of slight of hand with scriptures:eek: , I am not surprized that they would accuse others of doing the same thing, after all everyone does it don’t they?? NOT:rolleyes:
 
brkn1 said:
I read a Roman Catholic book that goes further about the Virgin Mary than what is described by most on this site.
It has Mary’s resurrected body being taken by Jesus to sit on God’s throne in heaven along with the Holy Trinity.
Do you believe this to be true?
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No. But then I’m not attached to the Vatican, but to the Orthodox Catholic Church.

I will say that we agree that she is the Queen Mother. Look at when Bathsheba goes to King David (3 Kingdoms for those who follow the LXX, I Kings for the fans of the Masoretic text 1:15) she bows and does homage to the king. Later she goes to her son Solomon. HE rises to meet her, bows down TO HER, and then sits on his throne and has a throne set up and she sat on his right hand. 2:19.

In the rite of Constaninople, the one I follow, the priest places various particules of the bread to be consecrated on the paten in a pattern that recalls all the members of the Church (there is a part where they remember members of the parish etc. by name as he places a particle on the patten for them). The particle that represents Mary the Theotokos is placed on the right side of the Lamb
(John 1:29 the main particle, which has “IC XC NIKA” Jesus Christ Victory, on it. The prophecy of Isaiah 53:7-8 on the lamb of God is recited as he cuts it out, and its side is pierced while reciting 19:34, the wine and water being poured into the chalice when he comes to the “blood and water” part),
while he recites: “The queen stood at Thy right hand, O KIng.”(Psalm 44:10 LXX, 45:9 Masoretic).
Is this RCC doctrine?
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I’m going to wait to let someone who follows the Vatican answer this.
The book has an “imprimatur” by a Roman Catholic Archbishop on one of the beginning pages.
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Ditto
 
SIA said:
Catholics Say:

The Eucharist ceases to be
bread when consecrated and
becomes the flesh of Christ.
A metaphysical change takes
place.

The Scriptues Say:

Jesus himself says, "The bread which comes from Heaven is my flesh.

Catholics Say:

Mary is co-mediatrix with Christ.

The Scriptures Say:

There is but one mediator between God and man being Christ Jesus.

Catholics Say:

Mary was born without sin and remained sinless her whole life.

The Scriptures Say:

Mary herself said, “I rejoice in God who is my savior”.

Catholics Say:

Mary was assumed into Heaven body and spirit.

The Scripture Says:

Nothing whatsoever to prove this happened.

Catholics Say:

Jesus was an only child.

The Scriptures Say:

Jesus had brothers and sisters both.

Still convinced that the Bible is a Catholic book??😊
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Yes, I am. Considering your reading and proof-texting is very much open for debate… what makes it so clear your interpretations are right, harmonious, and well informed by the history and theology of the Scriptures.

Something to consider, there are MANIFOLD problems with Sola Scriptura as a system. Tell us why you are an authoratative interpreter of them. Then tell us what system people were supposed to use before the printing press or widespread literacy.
 
tGette said:
Catholics say:
This is Jesus Christ.

Jesus, in the Scriptures says:
This is my body

Concerning intercessory prayer:
Since Jesus is incessanty praying, then we do we even need to bother praying?
Did not Mary at the Wedding at Cana get Jesus to go against his original divine plans?
“Woman…My hour has not yet come.”

Concerning Jesus being Mary’s savior:
If you grew up in a good Christian family where you were taught to avoid drugs, alcohol, etc. and then actually grew up adhering to what you were taught as a youngster…
Were you not saved from falling into these bad behaviors?
Mary was simply saved at birth…saved from even being able to sin.

Concerning the Assumption:
I guess I cannot say Tradition.
One interesting thing to think about though…of all the early Saints…Mary is the only one who does not have a tomb that people venerate.

Concerning Jesus’ siblings:
Scripture says:
Some of His “brothers” are elsewhere described as having different mothers.
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Not one single verse of Scripture quoted here. Just as I suspected.
 
ASimpleSinner said:
Yes, I am. Considering your reading and proof-texting is very much open for debate… what makes it so clear your interpretations are right, harmonious, and well informed by the history and theology of the Scriptures.

.
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Ah here is a classic! Something is wrong with my mind and my thought and perception process. Something is wrong with most everyone’s, so therefore we MUST conform to the interpretation of Scripture that the Almighty Catholic Magisterium sets forth. No thanks.
 
SIA said:
Not one single verse of Scripture quoted here. Just as I suspected.
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Jesus said this is my Body in the following Chapter concerning the Real Presence.

The three Gospel narratives of the Last Supper are absolutely consistent. Matthew: 26:26 “This is My Body.” 26:27 “This is My Blood…” Mark: 14:22 “This is My Body.” 14:24 “This is My Blood…” Luke: 22:19 “This is My Body.” 22:20 “This … is the New Covenant in My Blood.” Jesus’ next words instituted the Catholic priesthood: Lk 22:19 “Do this in remembrance of Me.”

The wedding feast of Cana intercede in favor of the wedding couple when Mary told Jesus. They have no wine. That is all in scripture. You either blind to see this or just purely ignorant of Scripture.

Mary only had One Son. Even the Father said, “This in my only begotten Son.”

Jesus had no other siblings. That is Biblical and it is only the Protestant who believes that Jesus had brothers and sisters.
 
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