Catholics need to stop using the "33,000 denominations" apologetic device

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I agree with what he is saying. The problem is though that no one else proposes an alternative number. I take the Dave Armstrong approach and stick with saying “hundreds.” It still gets the point across without being easily accused of over inflation.
 
We covered this question in some detail within the past few months I just can’t find the thread.
 
JustaServant said:
ncregister.com/blog/scottericalt/we-need-to-stop-saying-that-there-are-33000-protestant-denominations
ncregister.com/blog/scottericalt/we-need-to-stop-saying-that-there-are-33000-protestant-denominations
Click to expand...
For those who didn’t read the link, part of the argument against mentioning 33,000 denominations is that the source from which these numbers are taken Actually says there are 9000 protestant denominations (not 33,000) and it is also faulty with how it determines what a denomination is, resulting in it saying that Catholicism has over 200 denominations as well.

Catholic apologist John Martignoni thinks the 33,000 number is still defensible. He explains his argument at this link:

Apologetics for the Masses Issue 151
biblechristiansociety.com/newsletter/201-apologetics-for-the-masses-issue-151
 
I remember posting my analysis in that original thread.

Basically speaking:
  1. Each church that calls themselves by the following names is a separate denomination: congregational, Presbyterian, independent, baptist, “bible church” and any other church where the local pastor gets to set the doctrine (i.e. no higher authority can displace the pastor).
Using this standard I set, we have possibly hundreds of thousands, if not millions of denominations.

But wait, I’m getting started.
  1. Every individual Christian who believes in “Jesus and me” or “Not religious, just relationship” becomes a denomination unto themselves. Regardless of the church they attend (if they even attend one), they are denominations unto themselves. These are the “Church of One” types.
As you can see, this could easily become hundreds of millions of denominations.

Now, how do I define protestant?
  1. Not Catholic and
  2. Not Eastern Orthodox and
  3. Not Oriental Orthodox and
  4. Protesting against the Catholic Church, or split from the Catholic Church (or one of the splits) in its history and
  5. believes in Jesus Christ (I define this broadly, believes in Jesus and that he’s the Messiah)
So Lutheran counts. Anglican counts, since they split from us. And the various “bible churches” count since they split from the splits. I count JW and Mormons since they split from the splits and both declare those churches anathema! 🙂

So 33,000 is an understatement. We could easily have hundreds of thousands, if not millions.

The problem is not Protestantism, the problem is relativism which is endemic in the NCNO (non Catholic, non Orthodox) side of Christianity.
 
I wish I knew why this is so hard to understand.
A denomination is simply that which other churches identify with or answer to.
For example:

United Methodist
Includes (made-up names):
First UM Church
Gateway UM Church
St. Paul’s UM Church
Word of Life UM Church.
Ect.
They are NOT four different denominations, they are four churches associated with ONE denomination: United Methodist.

Another example for the ‘independent’ churches.
Bob Jones University.
Includes (made-up names):
Grace Baptist Church
Bible Baptist Church
Faith Baptist Church
Word of Life Baptist Church
They are NOT four different denominations, they are four churches associated with ONE denomination: Bob Jones University.
 
dmar198 said:
For those who didn’t read the link, part of the argument against mentioning 33,000 denominations is that the source from which these numbers are taken Actually says there are 9000 protestant denominations (not 33,000) and it is also faulty with how it determines what a denomination is, resulting in it saying that Catholicism has over 200 denominations as well.

Catholic apologist John Martignoni thinks the 33,000 number is still defensible. He explains his argument at this link:

Apologetics for the Masses Issue 151
biblechristiansociety.com/newsletter/201-apologetics-for-the-masses-issue-151
Click to expand...
Their definition isn’t faulty. It is idiosyncratic. Not suitable for these sort of things, but it suits the purposes of the folk who produce those numbers. Or they wouldn’t be using them, for over 20 years (IIRC).

Assuming that they are the source of the 33/35/39 etc thousand numbers.
 
I agree the number is way over inflated. But it does depend on how one classifies a Communion.

Many Evangelical (non-denominational) communities have open communion. I think, from their point of view, it puts them into the “greater” church body. And in that sense, a denomination may be as many local congregations which act independently of one another, so far as jurisdictional authority to govern.

But to churches, like the Catholic Church and Orthodox, the Sacrament of Communion carries the submission to what that particular leadership rules on. So even though their are common and fundamental ties to the faith of the same Gospel, there is insufficient unity for receiving Communion.

To me, then, it becomes a matter of Communion. And this is probably because the Catholic faith puts so much central emphasis on Communion. While most “protestant” communities put more emphasis on Scripture. But I believe that emphasis is a bit superficial, since there are many different and significant interpretations over Scripture.

Yet, it’s harder to interpret His Eucharist. It is either a miraculous change of substance into the Lord’s body or it represents what the Lord did.
 
BobCatholic said:
I remember posting my analysis in that original thread.

Basically speaking:
  1. Each church that calls themselves by the following names is a separate denomination: congregational, Presbyterian, independent, baptist, “bible church” and any other church where the local pastor gets to set the doctrine (i.e. no higher authority can displace the pastor).
Using this standard I set, we have possibly hundreds of thousands, if not millions of denominations.

But wait, I’m getting started.
  1. Every individual Christian who believes in “Jesus and me” or “Not religious, just relationship” becomes a denomination unto themselves. Regardless of the church they attend (if they even attend one), they are denominations unto themselves. These are the “Church of One” types.
As you can see, this could easily become hundreds of millions of denominations.

Now, how do I define protestant?
  1. Not Catholic and
  2. Not Eastern Orthodox and
  3. Not Oriental Orthodox and
  4. Protesting against the Catholic Church, or split from the Catholic Church (or one of the splits) in its history and
  5. believes in Jesus Christ (I define this broadly, believes in Jesus and that he’s the Messiah)
So Lutheran counts. Anglican counts, since they split from us. And the various “bible churches” count since they split from the splits. I count JW and Mormons since they split from the splits and both declare those churches anathema! 🙂

So 33,000 is an understatement. We could easily have hundreds of thousands, if not millions.

The problem is not Protestantism, the problem is relativism which is endemic in the NCNO (non Catholic, non Orthodox) side of Christianity.
Click to expand...
Which is my point, as to the number. Depends on the definition of denomination that one chooses/makes/assumes.
 
It all boils down to how one define
“denomination” if we use it as being
in communion w/ one another we
won’t have over 200 Catholic denomin-
ations!!
 
dmar198 said:
For those who didn’t read the link, part of the argument against mentioning 33,000 denominations is that the source from which these numbers are taken Actually says there are 9000 protestant denominations (not 33,000) and it is also faulty with how it determines what a denomination is, resulting in it saying that Catholicism has over 200 denominations as well.

Catholic apologist John Martignoni thinks the 33,000 number is still defensible. He explains his argument at this link:

Apologetics for the Masses Issue 151
biblechristiansociety.com/newsletter/201-apologetics-for-the-masses-issue-151
Click to expand...
John Martignoni is my source for this number and he is a recognised Apologist, so I will stay with the 33,000
 
GLam8833 said:
It all boils down to how one define
“denomination” if we use it as being
in communion w/ one another we
won’t have over 200 Catholic denomin-
ations!!
Click to expand...
Right. And if everyone who practices an “open communion” is one denomination, then there are very few denominations.
 
Think about it…

Whoever you receive communion from, is who you are agreeing with what is being professed as Teaching from Christ.

If you disagree with anything that is being professed, why would you be considered in the same denomination with them?

John 6:56

He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.

Jesus delivered the prophecy of His Eucharist as a most important means to “abiding” in Him.

Abide:

: to accept or bear (someone or something bad, unpleasant, etc.)

: to stay or live somewhere

: to remain or continue
 
I don’t think we should stop using this number. It shows the damage done by Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide. That’s the reason to keep pointing this out.
 
GKC said:
Their definition isn’t faulty. It is idiosyncratic. Not suitable for these sort of things, but it suits the purposes of the folk who produce those numbers. Or they wouldn’t be using them, for over 20 years (IIRC).

Assuming that they are the source of the 33/35/39 etc thousand numbers.
Click to expand...
From a non-Catholic POV, continuing to use that 33,000 number seems frankly pedantic and self defeating.

I mean my first reaction when I hear it isn’t to take it seriously given it’s inherent inaccuracies, particularly when compared to the Catholic denominations the same calculations include (but which every Catholic on CA would refute) which are well documented. And by extension the point being made by anyone using the number takes a credibility hit as well.
 
Michael68 said:
I don’t think we should stop using this number. It shows the damage done by Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide. That’s the reason to keep pointing this out.
Click to expand...
But why that number? Whence was it derived? By whom?
 
1 = too many. 1 Cor 1:10; Jn 17:21:23; Eph 4:4-6
Click to expand...
So some protestants want me to say 9,000 instead of 33,000? Ok. The apologetic point is still valid …until all are One.

I’ll probably just say, “Thousands and Thousands…”

It is only a matter of time before it gets to be undeniably 30,000 +. The fact is Sola Scriptura and “Me and Jesus” theologies each lead to “Sola Ego”…
 
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