Catholics, Orthodox, and Mary

[NovusFidem]

***Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; ***and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus; O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.

To me, that sounds like Mary is being given divine characteristics instead of being the godly young girl that she was who took a great risk to her own life to say “Yes” to God and give birth to out Lord and Savior and to love Him and raise Him and to be there for Him and not abandon Him at His crucifixion.

Even as a Catholic, we sometimes struggle with Mary veneration (hyperdulia). Mostly, this struggle happens because we, as many Protestants, fail to see the difference between adoration and veneration.

But, just to clear some things. Just like the names say - Advocate, Mediatrix, etc - it should be clear as to the role of Mary.

Let’s pretend life is a courtroom. Think of Jesus as the Judge - He is the one and only to truly give us absolution, to declare us “not guilty”. He knows what we did, as He is a GREAT Judge (being omniscient and all that), He has all the facts, the clues and evidences of our crimes. He is very kind, but also very just/righteous.

We, as the defendant, can plead our own case (ask forgiveness, do good works, pray for ourselves and others), but after that (when we die) our chance of speaking is over. :imsorry:

Other people (alive) and the Saints (alive in Heaven) are witnesses of our life. Their prayer for us would equal to their testimony - they “help our case”.

Mary is our lawyer (Advocate, Mediator between us and the Judge). She is the one to plead our case after all is said and done. She does this because she is very kind.

Like in real life, think that there is a lot that can still be said. Like “sure, he killed someone and has to pay; but don’t you think that death penalty is too much? Can’t we work out some life sentence with hard labor” and such. Jesus has the facts, and He is just. We would think that nothing can change His judgement (as it is perfect), but then…

Our Lawyer is His Mother

I speak all this in jest, but the idea is basically this. Just like Mary, with only a simple request, somehow ‘convinced’ Jesus to perform His first miracle in the marriage at Cana, even though His time for that had not yet come:

“3. When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, ‘They have no more wine’. 4. ‘Woman, why do you involve me?’ Jesus replied. ‘My hour has not yet come.’” - John 2:3-4

What couldn’t she do for us as our Advocate/the Mediator between us and the Judge?

Our devotion to Mary should be seen more in a sense of humility. We are not worthy of our Lord, so we appeal to the intercession of Mary. While our Lord does invite us to talk to Him directly (and we do), we also talk to Him indirectly. The Hail, Holy Queen prayer that you mentioned, contains this part (that I particularly love):

"-. Pray for us, O Holy Mother of God.

-. That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ."

No one goes to Mary, if not to request of her an “audience” with her Son. As the part of the Hail you posted does say: “show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus”.

When we go for Mary, we go with the intent to meet her Son through her. And this is not a Godly power, by any means. Many of us “meet” Jesus through someone’s homily, preaching or testimony. Many of us first “met” Jesus because someone else told us about Him. Isn’t that why we must go everywhere to evangelize?

Tl:dr: So, yeah. Mary, to us, is just like any other person alive or Saint, with the additional that she IS Theotokos - Mother of God. If there is one person’s judgement Jesus would consider over everyone else’s, it is His own Mother. Our Veneration (dulia) to her and the Saints is nothing more than the fact that we consider both of them alive and, thus, they can pray for us. The special veneration (hyperdulia) reserved for Mary over the Saints (but still under the cult and Adoration - cultus latria - reserved for God alone), comes from the fact that she is “more special” than all the others

If people can pray for you, so can the Saints. If the Saints can pray for you, so can Mary. And, out of all of them, whose prayers do you think would be most effective beside your own?

Hope I helped some! I used to have trouble with all the images and Mary attention, but it makes sense in context

 

[dronald]

In a courtroom I would think of The Father being the judge and Jesus as the one who pays my sentence. But Jesus as the judge as well, because, you know… One God and all.

 

[exnihilo]

In a courtroom I would think of The Father being the judge and Jesus as the one who pays my sentence. But Jesus as the judge as well, because, you know… One God and all.

Your idea seems to involve penal substitution, which is of course is not the Catholic view.

Also consider the creed:

‘He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead’.

 

[NovusFidem]

In a courtroom I would think of The Father being the judge and Jesus as the one who pays my sentence. But Jesus as the judge as well, because, you know… One God and all.

Hehe, I imagine that works too. But, as the Bible says:

“And just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so the Son also gives life to anyone He wants to. The Father, in fact, judges no one but has given all judgment to the Son, so that all people will honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Anyone who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.” - John 5:21-23

God the Father would be, perhaps, the bailiff? You know, taking off the cuffs and all? “Raising us from the dead”? Either way, neither one nor the other is less important for our Salvation, but the roles are a bit different.

(and why do I think this is relevant at all?? :whacky

I am trying to put subtitles on a scene of a Brazillian movie called ‘O Auto da Compadecida’ (translates to ‘Act of the Compassionate’, named ‘A Dog’s Will’ for english speakers). In this scene, most of the characters (heavy sinners) are killed and sent to the after-life, where the Devil comes to take them to Hell. The main character says they have a right to first be judged, and then comes Jesus to do just that. The Devil, then, resumes his role as “Prosecutor”

This scene is a silly way to show how we understand the role of Mary, as she comes to intercede. It is a very nice scene, I will try to put it up on youtube as soon as possible.

Our Lady of Aparecida (Virgin Mary) is the protector/patron Saint of Brazil. We have a soft spot for her

 

[pablope]

In all due respect, I think Catholics have more than just a “relationship” with Mary, the Mother of Jesus. Examples of this include the following:

The Hail, Holy Queen prayer:
Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! our life, our sweetness, and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve; to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley, of tears

Well, let me ask you Tommy…what do you think is the problem with the quote?

Turn, then, ]most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us;

Do you think Mary is not a gracious advocate for us sinners here on earth?

To me, that sounds like Mary is being given divine characteristics instead of being the godly young girl that she was who took a great risk to her own life to say “Yes” to God and give birth to out Lord and Savior and to love Him and raise Him and to be there for Him and not abandon Him at His crucifixion.

Can you enumerate what, to you, those divine characteristics are being given to her by Catholics and Orthodox?

I even heard a Catholic priest quoted as saying that all prayers should be said “to Jesus THRU Mary”, which if true, I find very troublesome because it implies she is divine. I pray to God (divine) thru Christ (also divine). Where is the need to pray thru Mary (non-divine), although scripture says she was full of grace and blessed among women?

Well…do you think Mary has ever stopped being the Mother of Christ?

 

[pablope]

My honor to Mary does not mean I talk to her or have to talk to her. She did answer God’s call to put herself into a position of possible dishonor by accepting the special job of being mother by the incarnate Jesus. You also mention that you can talk to any family members who have passed on - - I thought the Catholic Church taught that one can only speak to those who are saints and have proved that they live in heaven; not in Purgatory.

By asking for intercession of those in heaven. I think you are confusing this with necromancy, which is a no no.

The article below explains the differences:

anorthodoxpriest.blogspot.com/2014/06/necromancy-and-intercession-of-saints.html

How do you know that "she is wondering why some are ignoring her?’

 

[Tommy999]

Even as a Catholic, we sometimes struggle with Mary veneration (hyperdulia). Mostly, this struggle happens because we, as many Protestants, fail to see the difference between adoration and veneration.

But, just to clear some things. Just like the names say - Advocate, Mediatrix, etc - it should be clear as to the role of Mary.

Let’s pretend life is a courtroom. Think of Jesus as the Judge - He is the one and only to truly give us absolution, to declare us “not guilty”. He knows what we did, as He is a GREAT Judge (being omniscient and all that), He has all the facts, the clues and evidences of our crimes. He is very kind, but also very just/righteous.

We, as the defendant, can plead our own case (ask forgiveness, do good works, pray for ourselves and others), but after that (when we die) our chance of speaking is over. :imsorry:

Other people (alive) and the Saints (alive in Heaven) are witnesses of our life. Their prayer for us would equal to their testimony - they “help our case”.

Mary is our lawyer (Advocate, Mediator between us and the Judge). She is the one to plead our case after all is said and done. She does this because she is very kind.

Like in real life, think that there is a lot that can still be said. Like “sure, he killed someone and has to pay; but don’t you think that death penalty is too much? Can’t we work out some life sentence with hard labor” and such. Jesus has the facts, and He is just. We would think that nothing can change His judgement (as it is perfect), but then…

Our Lawyer is His Mother

I speak all this in jest, but the idea is basically this. Just like Mary, with only a simple request, somehow ‘convinced’ Jesus to perform His first miracle in the marriage at Cana, even though His time for that had not yet come:

What couldn’t she do for us as our Advocate/the Mediator between us and the Judge?

Our devotion to Mary should be seen more in a sense of humility. We are not worthy of our Lord, so we appeal to the intercession of Mary. While our Lord does invite us to talk to Him directly (and we do), we also talk to Him indirectly. The Hail, Holy Queen prayer that you mentioned, contains this part (that I particularly love):

No one goes to Mary, if not to request of her an “audience” with her Son. As the part of the Hail you posted does say: “show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus”.

When we go for Mary, we go with the intent to meet her Son through her. And this is not a Godly power, by any means. Many of us “meet” Jesus through someone’s homily, preaching or testimony. Many of us first “met” Jesus because someone else told us about Him. Isn’t that why we must go everywhere to evangelize?

Tl:dr: So, yeah. Mary, to us, is just like any other person alive or Saint, with the additional that she IS Theotokos - Mother of God. If there is one person’s judgement Jesus would consider over everyone else’s, it is His own Mother. Our Veneration (dulia) to her and the Saints is nothing more than the fact that we consider both of them alive and, thus, they can pray for us. The special veneration (hyperdulia) reserved for Mary over the Saints (but still under the cult and Adoration - cultus latria - reserved for God alone), comes from the fact that she is “more special” than all the others

If people can pray for you, so can the Saints. If the Saints can pray for you, so can Mary. And, out of all of them, whose prayers do you think would be most effective beside your own?

Hope I helped some! I used to have trouble with all the images and Mary attention, but it makes sense in context

Thank you NovusFidem very much for taking the time to do such a very good explanation of the Catholic position in an easy to understand manner. I really appreciate it. I can tell you are someone of great faith and intelligence, probably much smarter than me.

In my understanding of Christian faith, the scenario is slightly different. Here is how I would describe my understanding of it.

Christ is our judge, but He is also our lawyer and advocate. According to I Timothy 2:5: *For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus. *

I John 2:1 states
“My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father–Jesus Christ, the Righteous One”.

Mary would hopefully be in the courtroom in the gallery praying for me along with my family and friends, but I don’t see her having the role of a lawyer in the process. I don’t believe that any other mediator exists or is required between us and Christ.

For example, Hebrews 4:16 says:
‘Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need’.

To me, Catholicism gets a little too complicated when it places mediatrixes and other mediators in between us and Jesus. I can understand and appreciate the saints and Mary being in heaven and praying for us and rooting for us along with all others in heaven who God allows to see what is happening on earth, but they don’t have a more supernatural role beyond that. That is my understanding, anyway.

However, I realize there is a God and I am not Him so I always realize that I could be wrong. Once again, thanks for the thoughtful and very helpful reply.

 

[exnihilo]

Christ is our judge, but He is also our lawyer and advocate. According to I Timothy 2:5: *For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus. *

I John 2:1 states
“My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father–Jesus Christ, the Righteous One”.

Mary would hopefully be in the courtroom in the gallery praying for me along with my family and friends, but I don’t see her having the role of a lawyer in the process. I don’t believe that any other mediator exists or is required between us and Christ.

Yes, Jesus is the ‘one mediator’ but He is also the vine and we are the branches. We participate in His work. Mary doesn’t replace Jesus. Rather, she assists in His work. She is closer to the root of the vine than we are.

To me, Catholicism gets a little too complicated when it places mediatrixes and other mediators in between us and Jesus. I can understand and appreciate the saints and Mary being in heaven and praying for us and rooting for us along with all others in heaven who God allows to see what is happening on earth, but they don’t have a more supernatural role beyond that. That is my understanding, anyway.

However, I realize there is a God and I am not Him so I always realize that I could be wrong. Once again, thanks for the thoughtful and very helpful reply.

I think it is a bit of a mischaracterization to say they are placed between us and Jesus. And if anyone placed them there it wasn’t the Church but God in His plan. Mary and the saints are closer to God than we are. If they are in Heaven how can this not be so?

I’m still interested in knowing what the supernatural role is? We can pray for other people on Earth. Why would a saint doing that in Heaven be supernatural?

 

[Tommy999]

most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us

;

Do you think Mary is not a gracious advocate for us sinners here on earth?

Hi Pablope. I simply believe that Christ is our designated advocate according to I John 2:1:

“My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father–Jesus Christ, the Righteous One”.

When we start inserting other advocates in between us and Christ, I don’t see the purpose and it only jumbles up the picture because Christ is the best advocate a person can have.

However, I can understand and appreciate Mary and the saints being our heavenly “prayer partners” if you will, and see no issue with that. It appears to me that Catholics can potentially blur the line between divine and non-divine with Mary due to all the attention she receives in shrines, parades, “Our Lady” of this, “Our Lady” of that, etc.

On the other hand, I think many (not all) protestant faith traditions don’t give Mary enough attention. I assume it was an overreaction to all the attention Catholics give her and wanting to make sure they don’t flirt with the line between devotion adoration that I think some (not all) Catholics come close to crossing. .

 

[pablope]

T

To me, Catholicism gets a little too complicated when it places mediatrixes and other mediators in between us and Jesus. I can understand and appreciate the saints and Mary being in heaven and praying for us and rooting for us along with all others in heaven who God allows to see what is happening on earth, but they don’t have a more supernatural role beyond that. That is my understanding, anyway.

However, I realize there is a God and I am not Him so I always realize that I could be wrong. Once again, thanks for the thoughtful and very helpful reply.

Tommy…do you realize this has its roots with Judaism?

chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/562222/jewish/Is-it-okay-to-ask-a-deceased-tzaddik-to-pray-on-my-behalf.htm/mobile/false

*Yet for as long as there are records, Jews have been in the habit of asking righteous men and women to have a chat with G-d on their behalf…Just how ancient and popular is this custom? The Torah tells us that Caleb, one of the twelve spies that Moses sent to spy out the Land of Canaan, made a personal detour to Hebron. What was his interest in Hebron? The Talmud (Sotah 34b) tells that he wished to pray at the cave where Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Rebecca, Jacob and Leah are buried. He prayed there for mercy on his soul and he was saved from the fateful decision of the other spies.

So why is this not called “beseeching the dead?” And why doesn’t asking any tzaddik, living or dead, to intercede on our behalf constitute making an intermediate between ourselves and G‑d?

Rabbi Shik then extends this to the deceased, as well. According to the Talmud and the Zohar, those righteous souls who have passed on from this world are still very much in touch with their students and family and care for them and their problems. We petition them to pray on our behalf–and they do and often their prayers are more effective than our own. After all, we often don’t fathom the seriousness of these problems from our limited perspective as much as they might from their much more lofty view.*

So I think the blame should go to the Jews…for after all, their beliefs came from Abraham to Moses, and were the very first chosen people…

 

[Tommy999]

Yes, Jesus is the ‘one mediator’ but He is also the vine and we are the branches. We participate in His work. Mary doesn’t replace Jesus. Rather, she assists in His work. She is closer to the root of the vine than we are.

I think it is a bit of a mischaracterization to say they are placed between us and Jesus. And if anyone placed them there it wasn’t the Church but God in His plan. Mary and the saints are closer to God than we are. If they are in Heaven how can this not be so?

**I’m still interested in knowing what the supernatural role is? We can pray for other people on Earth. Why would a saint doing that in Heaven be supernatural?/**QUOTE]

Can you rephrase? I don’t understand what you are asking here. I believe the saints in heaven can pray for us, and I believe they do that. I don’t know that with 100% certainty but I will assent to it,

However, I will reiterate that Jesus is the best one to pray to because He is divine and the others aren’t, although they are with Jesus in heaven now.

 

[exnihilo]

On the other hand, I think many (not all) protestant faith traditions don’t give Mary enough attention. I assume it was an overreaction to all the attention Catholics give her and wanting to make sure they don’t flirt with the line between devotion adoration that I think some (not all) Catholics come close to crossing. .

I would have a different perspective. I think because (most) Protestants deny the sacrificial nature of worship, which you have in the Mass, they end up left with worship being only praise. So if you praise anyone but God you are worshiping them. Of course in reality we praise people all the time in a non religious context. That doesn’t make it worship.

I’d ask what exactly worship is? We can’t accuse Catholics of worshiping Mary (not that you are) or even approaching worship, unless we first identify what worship is. I think it is important to know what worship is because I humbly suggest many people who complain about Catholics worshiping Mary would have trouble really defining worship. Thus it seems like simply a reflexive charge.

 

[pablope]

Hi Pablope. I simply believe that Christ is our designated advocate according to I John 2:1:

“My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father–Jesus Christ, the Righteous One”.

 

[exnihilo]

Can you rephrase? I don’t understand what you are asking here. I believe the saints in heaven can pray for us, and I believe they do that. I don’t know that with 100% certainty but I will assent to it,

However, I will reiterate that Jesus is the best one to pray to because He is divine and the others aren’t, although they are with Jesus in heaven now.

Yes. I thought part of the issue was attributing some ‘supernatural’ powers to the saints and in particular Mary. I was interested in what specifically that was. I know some people object to the idea saints can hear us. But many of those same people would probably have no problem saying their dead loved one is smiling down on them from Heaven. The idea of the intercession of saints is predicated on the idea, which should be unobjectionable, that those in Heaven are elevated above what they were on Earth.

If Jesus is the best way should we ask other people here on Earth to pray for us? Or, should we just ourselves pray directly to Jesus? Most Protestants, I would think, would say we should pray to Jesus and ask others to pray for us.

 

[Tommy999]

Thanks for your response, Tommy. I think your understanding comes from a misunderstanding of the word "Advocate:.

 

[Tommy999]

Yes. I thought part of the issue was attributing some ‘supernatural’ powers to the saints and in particular Mary. I was interested in what specifically that was. I know some people object to the idea saints can hear us. But many of those same people would probably have no problem saying their dead loved one is smiling down on them from Heaven. The idea of the intercession of saints is predicated on the idea, which should be unobjectionable, that those in Heaven are elevated above what they were on Earth.

If Jesus is the best way should we ask other people here on Earth to pray for us? Or, should we just ourselves pray directly to Jesus? Most Protestants, I would think, would say we should pray to Jesus and ask others to pray for us.

Yes, I ask others, like my wife for example, to pray for me when I am having a rough day or something special, and I can understand asking a saint or Mary to do that, also, in the context of having a heavenly prayer partner.

However, my main issue is with the extra attention that Mary gets with shrines, parades, large statues, etc, and people praying to her in a way that is more than a prayer partner and more of a goddess herself, like when the priest on the radio said, “In your mother’s name, amen.” To me, that is putting her on the same level as Christ and was more than just giving her honor for being His mother. Why else would someone use that phrase?

I obviously can’t speak for her, but I truly believe that Mary would prefer that we focus on her son, Jesus, than on her, which is at the core of her beauty. That is what I try to do, although I don’t want to overlook her and her role in the gospel plan, either. That is why I sometimes thank her for what she did, too.

 

[jlhargus]

I’d love to have someone point me to where the Immaculate Conception and/or the Assumption were taught by Jesus or His apostles. Thanks! God’s peace to you! Rita

I hope the following posts on Mary will be helpful to you and Tommy999. Everything Mary, or any saint on earth or in heaven, does comes from God, not of her own power apart from God. Think of it in this way. We see powers ascribed to God alone shared with finite men who raised the dead, walked on water, healed the lame, knew the future etc… Grace can only be a power ascribed to God, the indwelling Holy Spirit can only be a power ascribed to God. Yet God shares all these and more with His people. As scripture tells us with God we can do all things without God we can do nothing.
1 of 7 ALL GENERATIONS SHALL CALL HER BLESSED FOR THE GREAT THINGS GOD HAS DONE TO MARY

[Lk1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, **from henceforth ALL generations shall call me blessed. 49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.] Catholic’s, thru all generations, have called Mary blessed because of the great things, plural,]

Mary Ark of the Covenant: [2Maccabees2:4 It was also contained in the same writing, how the prophet, being warned by God, commanded that the tabernacle and the ark should accompany him, till he came forth to the mountain " where Moses went up, and saw the inheritance of God. 5 And when Jeremias came thither he found a hollow cave: and he carried in thither the tabernacle, and the ark, and the altar of incense, and so stopped the door. 6 Then some of them that followed him, came up to mark the place: but they could not find it. 7 And when Jeremias perceived it, he blamed them, saying: **The place shall be unknown, till God gather together the congregation of the people, and receive them to mercy. 8 And then the Lord will shew these things, and the majesty of the Lord shall appear, and there shall be a cloud as it was also shewed to Moses, "and he shewed it when Solomon prayed that the place might be sanctified to the great God.] DRA Bible, public domain, biblegateway.com. All other scriptures used are KJV, public domain bible gateway.com.

It is Christ who came to gather His people unto mercy, fulfilling the Law. The cloud of glory is the Holy Spirit, which overshadowed Mary the ark. Just as the glory of the Lord in Moses’ time, overshadowing the tabernacle, and Solomon’s time when dedicating the temple.

[Hb9:3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; 4 Which had the golden censer, and **the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;]

Mary the ark of the new covenant, not made by hands, contained in her womb. The real manna, the living Bread of Life, Christ. The real High Priest, Christ, and the written tables, the real living Word of God, Christ. Not just symbols, as the ark made by hands contained, but the actual realities.

[EX 40:34 Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle 35 And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation because the cloud abode thereon and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle]

[LK 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God]

[CCC 2676 ……… the Lord your God is in your midst." Mary, in whom the Lord himself has just made his dwelling, is the daughter of Zion in person, the ark of the covenant, the place where the glory of the Lord dwells. She is “the dwelling of God . . . with men.” Full of grace, Mary is wholly given over to him who has come to dwell in her and whom she is about to give to the world. …….] The above is in the last part of the third paragraph of 2676 of the Cathechism of the Catholic Church, CCC.

The following are parallel OT & NT scriptures. The scriptures are inspired so It isn’t likely it was only coincidence. The early Church fathers recognized the parallel.

 

[jlhargus]

2 of 8 [2 Sam6:2 **And David arose and went with all the people that were with him from Baale of Judah to bring up from thence the ark of God whose name is called by the name of the LORD of hosts that dwelleth between the cherubims]

[LK 1:39 **And Mary arose in those days **and went **into the hill country with haste into a city of Juda]

[2 SAM 6:9 **And David was afraid of the LORD that day and said How shall the ark of the LORD come to me?]

[LK 1:30 And the angel said unto her **Fear not Mary for thou hast found favour with God]

[2 SAM 6:9 And David was afraid of the LORD that day and said **How shall the ark of the LORD come to me?]

[LK 1:43 And **whence is this to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?]

[2 SAM 6:16 And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David Michal Saul’s daughter looked through a window and saw king **David leaping and dancing before the LORD and she despised him in her heart]

[LK 1:44 For lo as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears **the babe leaped in my womb for joy]

[2 SAM 6:18 And as soon as David had made an end of offering burnt offerings and peace offerings **he blessed the people in the name of the LORD of hosts]

[LK 1:45 And **blessed is she that believed for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord]

[2 SAM 6:11 **And the ark of the LORD continued in the house of Obededom the Gittite three months: and the LORD blessed Obededom and all his household]

[LK 1:40 And entered into **the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth. 41-55 … 56 And Mary abode with her about three months and returned to her own house]

[Lk1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, **from henceforth ALL generations shall call me blessed. 49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.]

The ark of the OT was carried in procession before the people of God. Mary ark of the NT is also carried as a statue in in procession before the people of God on certain occasions. Neither the OT ark nor NT ark are worshiped.

Catholic’s, thru all generations, have called Mary blessed because of the great things, plural, God has done to her. The following would be some of those great things God has done for Mary.

 

[jlhargus]

3 of 8 Immaculate Conception. [Gn 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent Because thou hast done this thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put **enmity between thee and the woman and between thy seed and her seed it shall bruise thy head and thou shalt bruise his heel]

God said, he would put enmity [hostility, opposition] between thee=Satan and the woman=Mary. Her seed (Christ) would be born after her. Yet God put enmity between Satan and Mary before Christ was born. Had Mary, at anytime, been under sin, even original sin, she would not have been at enmity with Satan but satan’s seed.

[Ex25:8 And let them **make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them. 9 according to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it. 10 And they shall make an ark of shittim wood: two cubits and a half shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof, and a cubit and a half the height thereof. 11 And thou shalt overlay it with pure gold, within and without shalt thou overlay it, and shalt make upon it a crown of gold round about.]

If the Lord commanded the ark of the old covenant, made by hands, to be made to perfect specifications and detail. Covered, inside and out, with pure gold so He might dwell among His people. How much more would he cover, in pure holiness, the body and soul of the living ark of the new covenant, not made by hands, with the purity of the Holy Spirit inside and out. The ark in which God himself would be made flesh and, bodily dwell, in order to meet with His people.

Believing in the Immaculate Conception is not a great leap of faith at all. We see John the Baptist was born without sin. Being sanctified, not at conception, but in his mother’s womb, probably at Mary’s salutation. [Lk1:41 And it came to pass, that, **when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:]

[Lk1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and **he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb.]

The same God who sanctified and saved John the Baptist in the womb. Could certainly, just as easily, sanctify and save the mother of God, at conception. With God nothing is impossible. [Lk1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth **magnify the Lord, 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.]

For those who do not baptize infants, because they reject original sin, saying infants have no sin. How can you then object to Mary conceived without sin? If infants have no sin they must have been conceived without sin. For the OSAS, if infants have no sin and are saved, how can they lose their salvation when they sin knowing right from wrong?

 

[jlhargus]

4 of 8 Mary mother of God. Jesus is one person with two natures, the nature of God and the nature of man, they are united in the one person of Jesus, the Word=God made flesh=man. Theologians call this, union of two natures, the hypostatic union. Jesus is both God AND by this union of God and flesh (one person the God Man).

[John1:1 **In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. … 2-13 … 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.]

John tells us, the Word was with God and the Word was GOD and the Word became flesh. Now if the Word was God and that Word became flesh and Mary gave birth to that flesh of God. Then Mary is mother of God made man. Mary is not mother of the Father nor the Holy Spirit as they did not become man. Only the Son the Word=God became flesh=man. As God the Word has existed from all eternity, Mary is not the the Mother of the Word from all eternity. But Mary is mother of God, the Word=God made flesh=man in time.

[1Jn4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 **Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.]

If Jesus was God, before he came in the flesh, then He is still God in the flesh=man. God didn’t just inhabit a body but God became flesh=man.

[1Cor2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for **had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.]

When you deny Mary as mother of God, you deny God became flesh.

[2Jn1:7 Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge **Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.]

5 of 8 Perpetual Virgin. [Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign Behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son and shall call his name Immanuel]

MT 1:23 Behold a virgin shall be with child and shall bring forth a son and they shall call his name Emmanuel which being interpreted is God with us

[Ezek 44:1 Then the man brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, the one facing east, and it was shut. 2 **The LORD said to me, This gate is to remain shut. It must not be opened; no one may enter through it. It is to remain shut because the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered through it.]

The Lord God has entered through Mary, the gate, no one is to enter thru that gate. Just as no one was to enter into the old Testament Ark of the Covenant. Because it was HOLY, where the presents of God met with His people. No one is to enter Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant. Because the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered thru her. The Fathers called Mary the gate of heaven and the ark of the covenant.

[Lk1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel How shall this be seeing I know not a man?]
Mary was espoused to Joseph, before the annunciation, it would be natural to expect to conceive and bare children especially for a Jewish woman. The Church has always seen this as Mary having a vow of virginity. Otherwise why would she ask the angel, “How shall this be seeing I know not Man”. Numbers 30 tells us Jewish women did at times make vows.

[Nbrs30:6 And if she had at all an husband when she vowed or uttered ought out of her lips wherewith she bound her soul 7 And her husband heard it and held his peace at her in the day that he heard it then her vows shall stand and her bonds wherewith she bound her soul shall stand 8 But if her husband disallowed her on the day that he heard it then he shall make her vow which she vowed, and that which she uttered with her lips wherewith she bound her soul of none effect: and the LORD shall forgive her]

[Hb9:3 And **after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; 4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;]

Our bodies are the temple of the Lord and our temples are made holy thru, grace, the presents of the Holy Spirit indwelling our souls. Mary’s body is a holy temple as she was full of grace. In the old temple, which was holy, the tabernacle was the holiest of all, or the holy of holies, because of the presents of God. Mary’s body would be the holiest of all as that’s where God was formed and made flesh dwelling bodily. ONLY the high priest, Christ is our High Priest, could enter the holy of holies, no other children.