Catholics & Protestants: the Cross and Truth

[PJM]

Dear freinds,

I heard an interstering homily today by: Guest celebrant: Father Connor on EWTN

He was talking about a verse from John’s Gospel, chapter 17:22 "And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, as we also are one"

At the tender age of 68, I believe this is the first time I heard this discussed.

Father asked then provided the answer to the question: Just HOW does God GLORIFY us?" [and intend to BE Glorified BY us?]

He explained that it is accomplished three ways:

1. By following Christ in taking up our daily Crosses
2. [Knowing] and Then DOING the Devine Will of God. Fully; completely; totally

3.Live our lives Modeling Christ Life on earth

Matthew 16:24 “Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.”

Mark 8:34 “And calling the multitude together with his disciples, he said to them: If any man will follow me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me”

Luke 9:23 “And he said to all: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.”

Luke 14:27 “And whosoever doth not carry his cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.”

Each person has in a sense a “custom built for THEM” by the Carpender Jesus Christ; our very-own Cross to bear daily. And YET there seems to be another message of great signifiance in the hi-lighted passage from Luke. Whoever DOES NOT [accept fully] the Cross built for them by Christ; is not following Christ, AS Christ demands that each of us do.

This passage seems to imply conditions for actually and really being Christ Deciple. It seems to me:shrug: that there are conditions imposed by Christ; matters of faith; belief; understanding; humility; conditions of accepting His Teachings; His mandates; His Commands that are essential to ones salvation; if “follw Me” is literal.

What do you think?

God Bless,
pat/PJM

 

[Abbigaelann]

This is beautiful and just what I needed today. Thank you. That glory, that passion, is based on love…the warmth, the sharing, isn’t it.

I have been troubled on here and other Catholic interactions, just as I was in many Protestant congregations. I apparently am not allowed to ask questions on here, rather disgruntling, but I have come across so many trying to put rifts in and do not see that as a projection of the love. As if the Holy Spirit were based solely on bureaucratic dogmatic structs and judgments, with no allowances for passion as it is not in ‘moderation’. How I felt sorry for what the conditionality of their personal lives must be. And how like a drunk their seeking of perfection and strictures were to others…alienating others rather than drawing them near with love. Beating them with their words of ‘correction’ or superior attitude, the ‘drunkards’ other just pendantic pragmatists of ‘perfection’. If it does not help the love, separates others from it, how is that love? Well meaning, loving people, hurt by those lacking an open heart.

The Faithful or the Unfaithful Slave

45 “Who then is the faithful and wise slave, whom his master has put in charge of his household, to give the other slaves[j] their allowance of food at the proper time? 46 Blessed is that slave whom his master will find at work when he arrives. 47 Truly I tell you, he will put that one in charge of all his possessions. 48 But if that wicked slave says to himself, ‘My master is delayed,’ 49 and he begins to beat his fellow slaves, and eats and drinks with drunkards, 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour that he does not know. 51 He will cut him in pieces[k] and put him with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

But this is a day that the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad in it…

You are as a city on a hill, that’s light will be seen Matthew 5:14

Thank you!

 

[McCall1981]

Dear freinds,

I heard an interstering homily today by: Guest celebrant: Father Connor on EWTN

He was talking about a verse from John’s Gospel, chapter 17:22 “And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, as we also are one”

At the tender age of 68, I believe this is the first time I heard this discussed.

Father asked then provided the answer to the question: Just HOW does God GLORIFY us?" [and intend to BE Glorified BY us?]

He explained that it is accomplished three ways:

1. By following Christ in taking up our daily Crosses
2. [Knowing] and Then DOING the Devine Will of God. Fully; completely; totally

3.Live our lives Modeling Christ Life on earth

Matthew 16:24 “Then Jesus said to his disciples: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.”

Mark 8:34 “And calling the multitude together with his disciples, he said to them: If any man will follow me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me”

Luke 9:23 “And he said to all: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.”

Luke 14:27 “And whosoever doth not carry his cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.”

**Each person has in a sense a “custom built for THEM” by the Carpender Jesus Christ; our very-own Cross to bear daily. **And YET there seems to be another message of great signifiance in the hi-lighted passage from Luke. Whoever DOES NOT [accept fully] the Cross built for them by Christ; is not following Christ, AS Christ demands that each of us do.

This passage seems to imply conditions for actually and really being Christ Deciple. It seems to me:shrug: that there are conditions imposed by Christ; matters of faith; belief; understanding; humility; conditions of accepting His Teachings; His mandates; His Commands that are essential to ones salvation; if “follw Me” is literal.

What do you think?

God Bless,
pat/PJM

The bold puts into words something that I have been thinking about lately. The crosses that each of us has to carry are unique to each individual. It’s humbling if you think about it, because it means that God has unique plan and relationship with each of us.

 

[PJM]

=Abbigaelann;10755801]This is beautiful and just what I needed today. Thank you. That glory, that passion, is based on love…the warmth, the sharing, isn’t it.

I have been troubled on here and other Catholic interactions, just as I was in many Protestant congregations. I apparently am not allowed to ask questions on here, rather disgruntling, but I have come across so many trying to put rifts in and do not see that as a projection of the love. As if the Holy Spirit were based solely on bureaucratic dogmatic structs and judgments, with no allowances for passion as it is not in ‘moderation’. How I felt sorry for what the conditionality of their personal lives must be. And how like a drunk their seeking of perfection and strictures were to others…alienating others rather than drawing them near with love. Beating them with their words of ‘correction’ or superior attitude, the ‘drunkards’ other just pendantic pragmatists of ‘perfection’. If it does not help the love, separates others from it, how is that love? Well meaning, loving people, hurt by those lacking an open heart.

The Faithful or the Unfaithful Slave

45 “Who then is the faithful and wise slave, whom his master has put in charge of his household, to give the other slaves[j] their allowance of food at the proper time? 46 Blessed is that slave whom his master will find at work when he arrives. 47 Truly I tell you, he will put that one in charge of all his possessions. 48 But if that wicked slave says to himself, ‘My master is delayed,’ 49 and he begins to beat his fellow slaves, and eats and drinks with drunkards, 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour that he does not know. 51 He will cut him in pieces[k] and put him with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

But this is a day that the Lord has made, let us rejoice and be glad in it…

You are as a city on a hill, that’s light will be seen Matthew 5:14

Thank you!

Hi!

I’m the “OP”

I have no idea why you can’t post questions? Is there a reason for this?

Also; I’m not tying to create a rift.

What I do AIM to accomplish with God’s grace is to explain that “TRUTH” is singular per defined issue. There is no other rational option. It is my HOPE to get people thinking outside of what they may be comfortable with.

I believe; and accept fully that ONLY God can cause a conversion. But that does not mean God cannot; maynot or does not uses me and this forum as a small part of the process.

In posting any string I have NO expectations. God’s IN Charge. But I do try to get people to think about there lives and faith choices. And I do TRY to do it with charity.

This FORUM is "FAITH-based, and I do attempt to advantage that fact, to expose what we Catholics believe and just WHY and HOW we are able to justify our faith beliefs and practices.

I seek discussions not arguments. I KNOW that when God Dies, that he Did Not leave me in charge

THANKS for sharing your views,

pat/PJM

 

[Elizabeth779]

Hi!

I’m the “OP”

I have no idea why you can’t post questions? Is there a reason for this?

Also; I’m not tying to create a rift.

What I do AIM to accomplish with God’s grace is to explain that “TRUTH” is singular per defined issue. There is no other rational option. It is my HOPE to get people thinking outside of what they may be comfortable with.

I believe; and accept fully that ONLY God can cause a conversion. But that does not mean God cannot; maynot or does not uses me and this forum as a small part of the process.

In posting any string I have NO expectations. God’s IN Charge. But I do try to get people to think about there lives and faith choices. And I do TRY to do it with charity.

This FORUM is "FAITH-based, and I do attempt to advantage that fact, to expose what we Catholics believe and just WHY and HOW we are able to justify our faith beliefs and practices.

I seek discussions not arguments. I KNOW that when God Dies, that he Did Not leave me in charge

THANKS for sharing your views,

pat/PJM

Dear PJM – could not agree with you more. I remember praying for UNITY for all in the Catholic Church back in 1985 when first exposed to the Mass on a Sunday when my best friends had invited me to their son’s baptism. For years I prayed for UNITY of all believers in Christ’s Church, but at the same time, everything I heard about the Church always went through a sort of “Protestant Screen” in my way of thinking. Until a day, God spoke to me and told me it was time to stop being Catholic-believing Protestant. I remember saying out loud in the car (was on a highway), Lord, I will accept all the teachings and come to your Church in faith." Called the Director of Religious Education and was in the very next RCIA class – 2-14-08. I had already missed a lot of that years classes, so i was accepted into the Church in April, 2009. There is not a day that goes by that I do not thank God for calling me to His Church, and I always pray that the scales will fall from our separated brothers and sisters, and that they will seek His Church also.

Also PJM, I do believe in an objective truth. The problem in this world is relativism. People – even those who believe in Christ – and sometimes even those who are also Catholic – want to believe “what they see in their own viewpoint.” It is my opinion from growing up in the protestant belief that most of the denominations have morphed into a very relativistic dogma…or hardly none at all. I have a dear friend who sometimes wants to tell me her beliefs are very much the same as the Churches. But I’ve had to tell her that no, our beliefs are different, that her beliefs are clouded by sola scriptura and sola fide…we still discuss and have lovely discussions about commonality of beliefs, Christ, Cross, prayer, etc., and in those I rejoice in her as my Sister in Christ…but of course I do still pray for unity…Christ prayed we would all be one…in His divinity He knew how heresy would seep in and divide His followers.

Abigailanne…ask questions always. When I have asked a question though, I have also always expected the person to state their position, not a position relative to another point of view to help me feel comfortable even when I am wrong. If others or their responses have offended you, please do find someone you are comfortable with – I could even suggest contacting your Priest to ask him questions…maybe that would help? Also, there are very good books available to help answer questions. There are many apologists here on this website that have written excellent books, and of course there are many others, Jeff Cavins, Steve Ray, Scott Hahn, Edward Sri, etc? Peace be with you dearest Abigailanne (you were named for a very special woman of God in the Old Testament). Ignore the “forum politics” and ask your questions, disregard those you feel are discourteous (or report them to forum moderators), but still do ask questions…Like you I can be very passionate about my beliefs and opinions in my case about Catholic music…since I’m involved in music now…when I have asked questions, and not recerived helpful answers I’ve complained to the friend I mentioned above…my Christian protestant sister I mentioned above tells me to: “Elizabeth, get your eyes on Christ, and your nose in the work you are to do for His Church.” Sometimes that is just what we need to do to be happy as we bear our individual crosses…

 

[PJM]

=Elizabeth779;10786936]Dear PJM – could not agree with you more. I remember praying for UNITY for all in the Catholic Church back in 1985 when first exposed to the Mass on a Sunday when my best friends had invited me to their son’s baptism. For years I prayed for UNITY of all believers in Christ’s Church, but at the same time, everything I heard about the Church always went through a sort of “Protestant Screen” in my way of thinking. Until a day, God spoke to me and told me it was time to stop being Catholic-believing Protestant. I remember saying out loud in the car (was on a highway), Lord, I will accept all the teachings and come to your Church in faith." Called the Director of Religious Education and was in the very next RCIA class – 2-14-08. I had already missed a lot of that years classes, so i was accepted into the Church in April, 2009. There is not a day that goes by that I do not thank God for calling me to His Church, and I always pray that the scales will fall from our separated brothers and sisters, and that they will seek His Church also.

Also PJM, I do believe in an objective truth. The problem in this world is relativism. People – even those who believe in Christ – and sometimes even those who are also Catholic – want to believe “what they see in their own viewpoint.” It is my opinion from growing up in the protestant belief that most of the denominations have morphed into a very relativistic dogma…or hardly none at all. I have a dear friend who sometimes wants to tell me her beliefs are very much the same as the Churches. But I’ve had to tell her that no, our beliefs are different, that her beliefs are clouded by sola scriptura and sola fide…we still discuss and have lovely discussions about commonality of beliefs, Christ, Cross, prayer, etc., and in those I rejoice in her as my Sister in Christ…but of course I do still pray for unity…Christ prayed we would all be one…in His divinity He knew how heresy would seep in and divide His followers.

Abigailanne…ask questions always. When I have asked a question though, I have also always expected the person to state their position, not a position relative to another point of view to help me feel comfortable even when I am wrong. If others or their responses have offended you, please do find someone you are comfortable with – I could even suggest contacting your Priest to ask him questions…maybe that would help? Also, there are very good books available to help answer questions. There are many apologists here on this website that have written excellent books, and of course there are many others, Jeff Cavins, Steve Ray, Scott Hahn, Edward Sri, etc? Peace be with you dearest Abigailanne (you were named for a very special woman of God in the Old Testament). Ignore the “forum politics” and ask your questions, disregard those you feel are discourteous (or report them to forum moderators), but still do ask questions…Like you I can be very passionate about my beliefs and opinions in my case about Catholic music…since I’m involved in music now…when I have asked questions, and not recerived helpful answers I’ve complained to the friend I mentioned above…my Christian protestant sister I mentioned above tells me to: “Elizabeth, get your eyes on Christ, and your nose in the work you are to do for His Church.” Sometimes that is just what we need to do to be happy as we bear our individual crosses…

Well done

Thank you:thumbsup:

 

[Abbigaelann]

Thank you for the reminder of my name…it is my screen name, but my real name is Gail Ann …same thing.

I am all for the unity of the church. That’s a loaded statement. Should we ask people, to them just what constitutes, ‘the Church’ in their eyes. Perhaps then we might find facilitation in defining or seeking unity. I grew up in a crazy protestant background. I went to my Bible for my answers. I read it many times. Then, I came across the Catechism…not the kiddie versions. This was the closest thing that I had ever found to my understanding of the Bible. Yet on here, when I see people utilizing that Catechism toward ‘correctness’ and irrefutable standardization as if our journey is to be an unemotional standardization towards some sort of borg, it makes me as ill as the protestants who demand that this or this or this must be met for salvation. God help us all! What have they missed about the LOVE? Is not love, and dropping of all the pretense, the way, reason, intent, of the CROSS? Christ healing on the sabbath…oh my, with good cause, and change of perspective, we can find exceptions to every rule! It is love that enables us to do that. Why are we not there?!

 

[Eufrosnia]

Thank you for the reminder of my name…it is my screen name, but my real name is Gail Ann …same thing.

I am all for the unity of the church. That’s a loaded statement. Should we ask people, to them just what constitutes, ‘the Church’ in their eyes. Perhaps then we might find facilitation in defining or seeking unity. I grew up in a crazy protestant background. I went to my Bible for my answers. I read it many times. Then, I came across the Catechism…not the kiddie versions. This was the closest thing that I had ever found to my understanding of the Bible. Yet on here, when I see people utilizing that Catechism toward ‘correctness’ and irrefutable standardization as if our journey is to be an unemotional standardization towards some sort of borg, it makes me as ill as the protestants who demand that this or this or this must be met for salvation. God help us all! What have they missed about the LOVE? Is not love, and dropping of all the pretense, the way, reason, intent, of the CROSS? Christ healing on the sabbath…oh my, with good cause, and change of perspective, we can find exceptions to every rule! It is love that enables us to do that. Why are we not there?!

To love is to will the good of another. To do good, one must know what is good and what is evil, what exists and what does not exist, how to do good and how to avoid evil. The Church, through its doctrine on faith and morals, teaches us these things.

So to speak of love without knowledge is a contradiction. The Catechism as a whole and the Church is there to tell you how to love. The problem happens when we decide that a certain act is love and then discover that the Church does not think so. Then we must recognize that we are wrong and the Church is right.

 

[a_new_disciple]

Hi,
This is a question about the first post. I havn’t learned to how to use the quote function yet. My question is I have heard the term “taking up your cross” What exactly does this mean in regards to your daily life?
Thanks in advanve.

 

[PJM]

=a new disciple;10793760]Hi,
This is a question about the first post. I havn’t learned to how to use the quote function yet. My question is I have heard the term “taking up your cross” What exactly does this mean in regards to your daily life?
Thanks in advanve.

FIRST: Welcome

Here’s how to make the “quotes work”

then what you wish to be included

Now to your question:

God IS in Charge, even if we don’t know it or don’t wish to acknolwedge it.

Everything; EVERYTHING, no matter on seeminlgy insignifiant ot how major that happens in our lives has God’s “handprint” on it. AND this happens alway’s for one of two reasons.

God POSSIBLE Glorification
& or Our Possible sanctfication

IF it is “good” its FROM God and God IS Glorified through it’’ and we are sanctified.

IF its bad [God Permits it; but cannot be the cause of it] then if we acknowlwdge God and seek forgiveness God is Glorified and we again can be sanctified. EVEN if we do not do this God is still Glorified because He has make the opportunity to seek forgiveness possible. BUT we receive no sanctifing grace

This is what “take up our cross means”

Everything happens for a reason. EVERYTHING and everyone we meet.

SUFFERING
Take Up your Cross and Follow Me
Phil.2: 8 “And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross Luke.9 :23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Mark.8: 34 And he called to him the multitude with his disciples, and said to them, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. Luke.9: 23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Luke.14: 7 Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.”

1Pet.4: 13 ” But rejoice in so far as you share Christ’s sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed.

1Pet.5: 1, 9 “So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ as well as a partaker in the glory that is to be revealed. Resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experience of suffering is required of your brotherhood throughout the world.”

Phil.1: 29 “For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, “

2Thes.1: 5 “This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be made worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering “

Heb. 2: 10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.

2Tim.4: 5 “As for you, always be steady, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.”

Hope this clarifies it for you:shrug:

God Bles you, and again WELCOME

 

[PaulGL]

Read “The Two Babylons”, c. 1917

 

[1tool]

I have a dear friend who sometimes wants to tell me her beliefs are very much the same as the Churches.

But I’ve had to tell her that no, our beliefs are different,

that her beliefs are clouded by sola scriptura and sola fide…we still discuss and have lovely discussions about commonality of beliefs, Christ, Cross, prayer, etc., and in those I rejoice in her as my Sister in Christ…but of course I do still pray for unity…Christ prayed we would all be one…in His divinity He knew how heresy would seep in and divide His followers.

yes there is a difference – R.C. Sproul:

The Roman Catholic Church Anathematized The Gospel And Itself

youtu.be/exs_vY9dFp8

 

[PJM]

=1tool;10808385]I have a dear friend who sometimes wants to tell me her beliefs are very much the same as the Churches.

But I’ve had to tell her that no, our beliefs are different,

that her beliefs are clouded by sola scriptura and sola fide…we still discuss and have lovely discussions about commonality of beliefs, Christ, Cross, prayer, etc., and in those I rejoice in her as my Sister in Christ…but of course I do still pray for unity…Christ prayed we would all be one…in His divinity He knew how heresy would seep in and divide His followers.

yes there is a difference – R.C. Sproul:

The Roman Catholic Church Anathematized The Gospel And Itself

youtu.be/exs_vY9dFp8

Friend, would you please be MORE specific and share evidence of this position

 

[Abbigaelann]

PJM I enjoy reading your stuff. It is enlightening, it is uplifting, educated…I had been disillusioned in here by some I thought were apologists and were not, and were using strictly exacting terms of the catechism to state their views as if gospel.

But please tell me the wording on this was a boo boo…or do you know something I don’t…“I seek discussions not arguments.****** I KNOW that when God Dies******, that he Did Not leave me in charge”

Thank you for your kindness Elizabeth-Oh how you should enjoy saying the rosary with the Joyous Mysteries.

Eufrosnia, I believe that knowledge is important and that educated viewpoints are necessary. But so is the spirit and the heart. (Yes, it helps us understand the Spirit so much better). But how many are not that bright? Yet they need understanding without academia…and yet they can still find happiness, love, and have a spirit filled life, true? When all the citings get in the way, often good and well meaning Christians get lost amidst the shuffle of their own usage of the Word and the catechism. I’ve seen it all too often. The scripture has a circular logic that is flawless, however when man uses it also trying to utilize circular logic, he is easily distracted to his own bias…the logic appears to be there, but then they might also mislead others…That’s why I loved attending mass at the Basilica of St Louis, where before the reading of the scripture…the sign of the cross went to head and mouth twice…before and after the heart…

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Friend, would you please be MORE specific and share evidence of this position

I watched the video, and there is no evidence. The thrust of the video is twofold, there needs to be a certain Gospel that is upheld as the Gospel delivered by the Apostles. The Protestants (and Sproul) believe that Sola Fide IS the Gospel delivered by the Apostles. There is no evidence for this however. Then, because the council of Trent condemned the heresy of Sola Fide, Sproul (and other Protestants/Evangelicals) believe that the Church “of Rome” condemned itself.

But the Evidence was assumed, and not thought necessary, in the crowd he was preaching to.

But the interesting thing here, is that Sproul does wish to be dogmatic in his belief, eschewing the Liberal, anti-dogmatic, relativistic principle that is absolutely ORTHODOX in today’s western culture. So here we have something in common. We both are at war with this anti-dogmatic culture, which says no one is right and yet everyone is right. We can not know truth (and THAT is the truth!)

 

[PJM]

=Abbigaelann;10828086]PJM I enjoy reading your stuff. It is enlightening, it is uplifting, educated…I had been disillusioned in here by some I thought were apologists and were not, and were using strictly exacting terms of the catechism to state their views as if gospel.

But please tell me the wording on this was a boo boo…or do you know something I don’t…“I seek discussions not arguments.****** I KNOW that when God Dies******, that he Did Not leave me in charge”

Thanks

When I still lived in Ohio, I had a Pastor that I had become friends with. I’m a “calssic TYPE A” personality; who spent most of my adult life in Retail Management positions.

I was also VERY active in the parish; teaching and other things as well. While I’m not aware of any issues caused by the above; Father used to nevertheless ask me from time : “WHO DIED AND LEFT YOU IN CHARGE?” …

IT was his way of reminding me to focus on God FIRST Take “the me” OUT;& put God BACK in. Very good advice.

So my comment was with this in mind. One of my cocnstant concers personally and for all of us Catholics, is NOT to get sooooo warpped up HAVING THEE truth; that we forget to share it in charity.

So MY persoanl objective is to discuss; debate with clarity and charity; BUT NOT to argue; not to accuse.

THANKS for asking and providing the opportunity to explain myself

God Bless you!
Pat /PJM

Thank you for your kindness Elizabeth-Oh how you should enjoy saying the rosary with the Joyous Mysteries.

Eufrosnia, I believe that knowledge is important and that educated viewpoints are necessary. But so is the spirit and the heart. (Yes, it helps us understand the Spirit so much better). But how many are not that bright? Yet they need understanding without academia…and yet they can still find happiness, love, and have a spirit filled life, true? When all the citings get in the way, often good and well meaning Christians get lost amidst the shuffle of their own usage of the Word and the catechism. I’ve seen it all too often. The scripture has a circular logic that is flawless, however when man uses it also trying to utilize circular logic, he is easily distracted to his own bias…the logic appears to be there, but then they might also mislead others…That’s why I loved attending mass at the Basilica of St Louis, where before the reading of the scripture…the sign of the cross went to head and mouth twice…before and after the heart…

 

[bsy]

Beautiful post, PJM

Thank you!