Catholics "R" Wrong

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The form of this question is questionable, and appears to me to be designed to unnecessarily provoke contentions.
  1. Catholics? ALL Catholics? Some Catholics? Faithful, devoted Catholics? “Easter-only” Catholics? Fallen-away Catholics? The Church Itself? Some tenets, or provisional teachings of the Church? So here we have what comes off as a huge generalization making the subject group amorphous and indistinguishable for any useful considerations.
  2. WHY? First, no need to shout. Convention has it that “all caps” on boards constitutes shouting. Are you yourself defensive about something? Otherwise,see “1)” above.
 
Do you even know what Canon 6 says? It simply establishes that the bishops of Rome, Antioch and Alexandria, and of the other provinces, are to have a certain metropolitan jurisdiction over certain geographical areas (as metropolitan sees), as was already the established custom, and then establishes a rule that no bishop should be ordained without the consent of the metropolitan, but if there is disagreement within the province, then the majority opinion should prevail.
No need to present it to me, I am capable of reading and comprehending. If it is an established custom as you state, then explain how any bishop way outside the jurisdiction of Rome be within the “custom” by taking specific grave matters to Rome? That is what I refer to when canon 6 holds little credence.
 
Let me try and throw something into this mess haha 😃

Which came from Jesus?

The Catholic Church… Who broke off of the Catholic Church?

The Orthodox Church… Who also broke off of the Catholic Church?

All 35,000 protestant denominations!

This seems to be simple math right here. If someone doesn’t like a teaching, they break off and start their own church.

Pretty straight forward if you ask me 😃
 
Thank you for the corrections, Br. JR. Do you know of any books or sites that explain how persons or things in the OT were a prefigurement of persons and things in the NT?
The most concise book around is by Scott Hahn. Understanding the Scriptures: A Complete Course On Bible Study. It’s part of the Didache Series. ISBN 1-890177-47-4 UTS. I’m not sure if the UTS is part of the ISBN.

It’s well done, with study questions, exercises and cross references. It’s a little expensive, but worth it.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
First problem:

There was no OT Church. I should know, I’m Jewish. The very idea of a church is foreign to Jewish faith.

You cannot have jurisdiction over that which does not exist. Any Jew will tell you this.

Israel is a people, not a Church or an ecclesial community either.

Actually, not. Moses foreshadows Christ himself. From the earliest times in the Christian Church, Christ is hailed as the New Moses. Moses does not foreshadow Peter.

The person who foreshadows Peter in the OT is Noah and the Ark foreshadows Peter’s bark, the Church.

All of these are misunderstandings of what the Catholic Church believes. More people reject what they think it Catholic belief than what is truly Catholic belief.

Clergy and laity: Taken from the early Church itself. The Acts tell us of the Apostles and the faithful who gathered around them. There was always a leadership of Heiros, which is Greek, for priest. Hence the term, hierarchy.

Maryism: The is no such thing. If you mean by this that:

Mary is the Mother of God – True. John tells us that Jesus was with God and is God. Mary is his mother. There is a big difference between this and saying that she is the mother of the God-Head. That is what many people think Catholics are saying, which they are not. She is the mother of the 2nd person of the Trinity, who is truly God.

Mary is ever virgin – True again. There is no historical evidence to the contrary. Secondly, this was part of the faith handed down to us from the first generation Christians. Third, this takes nothing away from Christ. On the contrary, it speaks about Christ. God’s son was preserved from all human weaknesses, even from the moment of conception.

Mary’s was conceived without Original Sin – True again. This is the Father’s gift to the Son. It was appropriate that the Father preserve the Son from contact with sin. Therefore, it was appropriate that the mother in whose womb he would be conceived, would be free from the sin of Adam. It was possible for God to do it, because nothing is impossible for God. So, he did it. He created a human being free of sin. How? Easy. The Cross and merits of Christ’s death extend beyond a single hour and day in Jerusalem. It spans eternity. Therefore, Mary is redeemed by the Son, before she is conceived. This too is possible for God.

Purgatory – does not deny the judgment seat of God. This is a misunderstanding. Even Jews believed that there is a transition between this life and the next, where even those who are saved must make retribution. If I steal $100 dollars from my neighbor, sorrow and contrition are good. But in justice, I must repay my neighbor. If I sin against God, sorrow and contrition are necessary for forgiveness. But God is also owed justice. Purgatory is about justice, not about taking anything from the judgment throne of God.

A need for penance – that was taught by the Apostles themselves. Conversion involved penance for one’s sins. It began with the profession of faith, but was followed by fasting and abstinence. Dates back to the early Church.

Uncertainty of salvation – only for those who deny that salvation is possible. Otherwise, there is no uncertainty taught in Catholic theology. Not sure where you got this one. Even Luther agreed that faith was necessary for salvation and that without faith, there was no salvation possible. As Augustine said, “The God who created you without your help cannot save you without your cooperation.” God does not impose salvation. He offers it. We see this very clearly in the difference between the two men crucified with Christ. The one asks for salvation and receives the promise from Christ himself. To the other, who challenges and questions Christ, Jesus makes no such promise. It’s not that salvation is uncertain. Salvation is very certain. What is uncertain is man’s cooperation with salvation.
My My, methinks I have stumbled on Perfect Joy.
I find your use of terms questionable. The Jewish people are a faith community and are the foundation of all that is Christian. Your desire notwithstanding, acceptance of Truth is not the determiner of same, so that it is not God who became three persons but the people of God who recognized it. To quote Father Francis “…Live the gospel in obedience…”

Your comments re appropriateness are of concern, and probably dangerous for posting on a public board. Our consideration of appropriate is of no interest to God whatsoever. The tradition also holds that John the Baptist was conceived immaculate due to his role in the public ministry of the Christ, conspicuous by its absence in your Apology.

Lastly, to be kind, Our Salvation is certain. So too is our Free Will to accept it. Our action has no effect on the Will of the Christ and his will is that we all join Him in Love.

Brother Leo Write…Tell the friars that they are to preach the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Pax et Bonum
 
… The Jewish people are a faith community and are the foundation of all that is Christian.
Uh, I’m pretty sure that many scholars would ague that there is a healthy (depending on viewpoint,) dose of Zoroastrianism in there. Isn’t that where the idea of purgatory came from?
 
Uh, I’m pretty sure that many scholars would ague that there is a healthy (depending on viewpoint,) dose of Zoroastrianism in there. Isn’t that where the idea of purgatory came from?
I don’t think so. Angles come from Zoroastrianism, purgatory comes from our construct of Justice. Antecedents would help me better understand though.
 
Let me try and throw something into this mess haha 😃

Which came from Jesus?

The Catholic Church… Who broke off of the Catholic Church?

The Orthodox Church… Who also broke off of the Catholic Church?

All 35,000 protestant denominations!

This seems to be simple math right here. If someone doesn’t like a teaching, they break off and start their own church.

Pretty straight forward if you ask me 😃
OR…

Who broke from the Orthodox Church…The Catholic Church

Then the protestants broke off from the Catholic Church…because and already broken institution is open to further breakage.
 
My My, methinks I have stumbled on Perfect Joy.
I find your use of terms questionable. The Jewish people are a faith community and are the foundation of all that is Christian. Your desire notwithstanding, acceptance of Truth is not the determiner of same, so that it is not God who became three persons but the people of God who recognized it. To quote Father Francis “…Live the gospel in obedience…”

Your comments re appropriateness are of concern, and probably dangerous for posting on a public board. Our consideration of appropriate is of no interest to God whatsoever. The tradition also holds that John the Baptist was conceived immaculate due to his role in the public ministry of the Christ, conspicuous by its absence in your Apology.
There is nothing contrary to dogma in my comments. The reason that I do not mention that John the Baptist was conceived immaculate is because that is not the teaching of the Church. Tradition has it that he was born without original sin, not conceived without original sin. Only Jesus and Mary were conceived without original sin.

[qoute]
Lastly, to be kind, Our Salvation is certain. So too is our Free Will to accept it. Our action has no effect on the Will of the Christ and his will is that we all join Him in Love.

I never said that our salvation was not certain. I said that it depends on our cooperation with grace as St. Augustine rightly puts it. God offers it freely to all. Not all will cooperate with it.
Brother Leo Write…Tell the friars that they are to preach the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
That’s exacty what I was doing.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
There is nothing contrary to dogma in my comments. The reason that I do not mention that John the Baptist was conceived immaculate is because that is not the teaching of the Church. Tradition has it that he was born without original sin, not conceived without original sin. Only Jesus and Mary were conceived without original sin.

[qoute]
Lastly, to be kind, Our Salvation is certain. So too is our Free Will to accept it. Our action has no effect on the Will of the Christ and his will is that we all join Him in Love.
I never said that our salvation was not certain. I said that it depends on our cooperation with grace as St. Augustine rightly puts it. God offers it freely to all. Not all will cooperate with it.

That’s exacty what I was doing.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂

When you claim that something from the Christ is dependent you misrepresent. It is God’s desire that I participate, but my participation has no effect on God’s Will. (or cooperation)

The Gospel is that Jesus is God and Loves us, and will take us home when we call. (Ultima)
 
I never said that our salvation was not certain. I said that it depends on our cooperation with grace as St. Augustine rightly puts it. God offers it freely to all. Not all will cooperate with it.

That’s exacty what I was doing.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
When you claim that something from the Christ is dependent you misrepresent. It is God’s desire that I participate, but my participation has no effect on God’s Will. (or cooperation)
The Gospel is that Jesus is God and Loves us, and will take us home when we call. (Ultima)
I strongly suggest that you read Augustine on this point.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Excellent for his day…not so much now.
Explain that, because now you lost me. How was Augustine excellent for his day and not relevant today? That’s not what Ascetic and Mystical Theology says, what Dogmatic Theology says, what Patristic Theology says or even what the current pope says.

Even when you study Franciscan Spirituality, it’s very Augustinian, especially anything written by Bonaventure, Duns Scotus, Francis of Osuna, Peter of Alcantara and Lawrence of Brindisi. Al borrowed heavily from Augustine.

Do you mean a particular point in Augustine or Augustine’s theology.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Explain that, because now you lost me. How was Augustine excellent for his day and not relevant today? That’s not what Ascetic and Mystical Theology says, what Dogmatic Theology says, what Patristic Theology says or even what the current pope says.

Even when you study Franciscan Spirituality, it’s very Augustinian, especially anything written by Bonaventure, Duns Scotus, Francis of Osuna, Peter of Alcantara and Lawrence of Brindisi. Al borrowed heavily from Augustine.

Do you mean a particular point in Augustine or Augustine’s theology.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
the purpose was two fold.
  1. To determine if you could read and understand only what was written, you failed.
  2. Te see if you understood historical perspectives. you did not do so well.
I can no engage in this forum with those who insist on adding to what I write so as to conform to their ideas, which you just did. (see relevant v. excellent) The meanings are not even close.

Go to Bonnies and take an epistemology class. As for Franciscan Spirituality I am not sure where you are comeing from as osf for most Men went out with Leo Xiii, I just assumed you might be TOR but I fear I was mistaken. Franciscan spirituality is first poor, and opts for the poor. Second it is real and predicated on creation and the dignity from the incarnation. Personally I think one thing it is not is Thomistic. Thomas saw God in Order, Francis in chaos. thanks for the perfect joy. T

Pax
 
No need to present it to me, I am capable of reading and comprehending. If it is an established custom as you state, then explain how any bishop way outside the jurisdiction of Rome be within the “custom” by taking specific grave matters to Rome? That is what I refer to when canon 6 holds little credence.
Lmao are you refering to Corinth back in Clement I?
Greece was part of the Roman Patriarchate back in the day.
 
OR…

Who broke from the Orthodox Church…The Catholic Church

Then the protestants broke off from the Catholic Church…because and already broken institution is open to further breakage.
Sorry… We know that can’t possibly be true because the Pope is our head.

Now, i know your gonna throw some stuff at me that says otherwise and all that good stuff, but let me tell you this; if the Catholic Church was not the true Church, then why so many followers? How come everyone didn’t just follow the Orthodox Church if it was the true Church? How come the Orthodox Church and its features cannot be found or based in the OT like the Catholic Church?

Defend all you want good sir, but i tell you this; what we believe is the Truth. And sometimes the truth hurts.
 
Sorry… We know that can’t possibly be true because the Pope is our head.

Now, i know your gonna throw some stuff at me that says otherwise and all that good stuff, but let me tell you this; if the Catholic Church was not the true Church, then why so many followers? How come everyone didn’t just follow the Orthodox Church if it was the true Church? How come the Orthodox Church and its features cannot be found or based in the OT like the Catholic Church?

Defend all you want good sir, but i tell you this; what we believe is the Truth. And sometimes the truth hurts.
Nonsense, what feature of the Orthodox Church cannot be found prefigured in the Old Testament? The Eucharist? Bishops? Baptism? Chrismation? Christ? I want to see one specific difference between Orthodoxy and Catholicism, where the Catholic feature may be found in the Old Testament while the Orthodox feature cannot be found.
 
the purpose was two fold.
  1. To determine if you could read and understand only what was written, you failed.
  2. Te see if you understood historical perspectives. you did not do so well.
I can no engage in this forum with those who insist on adding to what I write so as to conform to their ideas, which you just did. (see relevant v. excellent) The meanings are not even close.

Go to Bonnies and take an epistemology class. As for Franciscan Spirituality I am not sure where you are comeing from as osf for most Men went out with Leo Xiii, I just assumed you might be TOR but I fear I was mistaken. Franciscan spirituality is first poor, and opts for the poor. Second it is real and predicated on creation and the dignity from the incarnation. Personally I think one thing it is not is Thomistic. Thomas saw God in Order, Francis in chaos. thanks for the perfect joy. T

Pax
Thank you for your response. It was very humble on your part to respond to my post. Even though I did not get my question answered.

I’m not TOR. My community came out of the Capuchin tradition. Are you an OFM friar? OSF is still used by some male communities. Actually, we’re going to be changing that to FFV soon. But that’s another topic for another day.

Have a blessed Easter,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Nonsense, what feature of the Orthodox Church cannot be found prefigured in the Old Testament? The Eucharist? Bishops? Baptism? Chrismation? Christ? I want to see one specific difference between Orthodoxy and Catholicism, where the Catholic feature may be found in the Old Testament while the Orthodox feature cannot be found.
Multiple patriarchs having equal authority vs one leader in authority. It seems to me that in the OT, there was one leader at a time (until the nations of Israel and Judah were at odds). Come to think of it, the EO and the CC kind of remind me of that scenario… sort of.
 
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