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geometer
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You are then a complete agnostic?
And you lack all of these spiritual experiences that you have written about?
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And you lack all of these spiritual experiences that you have written about?
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Nathan_Wagar
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No geometer. You should probably do a bit of research on traditional Jewish belief regarding the body, the spirit, and the soul. Then look into gnosticism. Your statement betrays gross misinformation.
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geometer
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Well, I do listen to Rabbis who teach Kabbalah. And you think that I have it all wrong, do you?
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Nathan_Wagar
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I think it is evident you probably studied kabbalah before you studied Judaism, which is not recommended for beginners. Particularly not when you combine them with pagan gnostic beliefs and impose those viewpoints on Christianity. And yes, you’re wrong.
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geometer
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Firstly I do not believe you really know anything about spiritual matters. And telling me that you have studied pagan gnostic beliefs does not impress me. I am sure you do not know them any better than what you have shown knowledge of the scripture. Adding a new age two word technical term like “spiritual infusion” does not make up for lack of experience.
What you do not realize is how very agnostic you are. You are tightly holding on to the belief that you can have no knowledge of God at all. And that goes against the whole of scripture from beginning to end, the whole book cover to cover is about jews experiencing God our father.
This is why the bible is the greatest book, they wrote about their honest experiences of God…
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MariaG
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Actually Ed, I think you need to reread my post. If you have failed to read Nathan’s post like you just did with mine, I can see why you have not “seen” any scripture that he has posted to you.
I do not mean this sarcastically. Nowhere did I say I had read Nathan’s posts in THIS thread. I said I would be surprised if Nathan had not posted scripture from the few posts I have read in the little time I have been currently back on the boards.
I HAVE since gone back and read some of his post and the pertinent scripture.
I pray that that Holy Spirit will open your eyes to the truth that has been set before you, but first you must truly take your time and read what is being written to you.
Respectfully and with love,
Maria
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EdOsiecki
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Nathan, If this were true, that you had already given me the verses that show that the Holy Spirit is infused by water baptism, wouldn’t be easier and faster to end this debate by simply re-posting them once again ? ED O.
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Nathan_Wagar
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Why Ed? So you can ignore them again? Have some integrity and go back and read them again. Then answer all MY questions that don’t fit YOUR theology.
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Nathan_Wagar
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Why wasn’t Paul saved until he was baptized?
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EdOsiecki
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Nathan, since you accuse me of ignoring what you had posted in the past, I promise you that I won’t do that it again. I’m a man of much integerity and I’ll keep my promise. Do we have a deal? But please don’t write a whole chapter that will take up the whole post. ED O.
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geometer
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Paul said of himself that he had not “overcome”. The scriptures say that he who has been born of God has overcome the world.
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Nathan_Wagar
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Geometer, your opinions are subjective to the extreme. This question is directed toward Ed. I would suggest you pick a book other than the Bible to misrepresent, unless you are going to present a comprehensive argument to me. Start out by stating the verse you are making reference to, and we can go from there. And your opinions on my “spiritual adeptness” are false. I proclaim Catholic truth. You have a hodgepodge of heretical ideas that don’t even share common ground with each other. Even Kabbalah is grounded in Judaism, that’s why Kabbalah is studied later by the mystics. You are taking two contradictory positions: Jewish Mysticism and gnosticism, and combining them into a new age soup, then using that mindset to read the Bible divorced from it’s historical and cultural background. I don’t take you seriously, and answering you is apparently pointless. You’re out in space somewhere, and half the time nobody even knows what you’re talking about. That’s the problem with magic mushroom-induced “Revelation.”
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Nathan_Wagar
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And Ed, that’s all I ask, brother. We can always agree to disagree, and I will try to keep my posts shorter if that makes it easier.
The ball’s in your court, I will respond in kind.
The ball’s in your court, I will respond in kind.
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geometer
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You must have pale blue eyes. What notions…
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Nathan_Wagar
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One green and one blue/brown, actually.
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EdOsiecki
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MariaG, I apologize that I misunderstood your post. I thought you ment that you went back and read Nathan’s posts. However; I asked you too, to give me the Scripture that indicates that the Holy Spirit is infused by water baptism, wouldn’t it be simply easier to do that than to write all of this? E D O.
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latin_rite
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You’re a little bit uppity aren’t you? Telling me what i reject and what i don’t. or are you psychic? Isn’t being psychic a form of witch craft? so that means all protestants are pagans who reject the word of God to follow their own pagan gods. I wonder when protestants will wake up and realize that Not only is their faith filled with error… But Will realize that all these bright ideas or revelations they come in here with, has all been heard and rejected before. The only thing i reject is the path of protestantism. a path thats leads straight to hell.
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Nathan_Wagar
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Ed. I won’t use John 3:5, since we disagree far too much on that passage. I still think the fact that Ezekiel ties in with it makes the infusion concept quite clear, but so be it.
However, Acts 2:38: "Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
This is pretty self-explanatory Ed. Combined with the next two passages (which describe the same event), and it seems very obvious to me that infusion is being described.
Acts 9:17-19:17Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19and after taking some food, he regained his strength.
Acts 22:12-16:“A man named Ananias came to see me. He was a devout observer of the law and highly respected by all the Jews living there. 13He stood beside me and said, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight!’ And at that very moment I was able to see him.
14“Then he said: ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15You will be his witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’
The above make it clear that Saul’s sins were forgiven at the moment of baptism, not the moment of belief. He did not receive the Holy Spirit until he was baptized, which just so happens to be when his sins were forgiven. This is what infusion means. If your belief is true, Ed, he would have been saved long before, because he had direct revelation from Jesus, and thus his belief would have saved him already.
However, Acts 2:38: "Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
This is pretty self-explanatory Ed. Combined with the next two passages (which describe the same event), and it seems very obvious to me that infusion is being described.
Acts 9:17-19:17Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19and after taking some food, he regained his strength.
Acts 22:12-16:“A man named Ananias came to see me. He was a devout observer of the law and highly respected by all the Jews living there. 13He stood beside me and said, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight!’ And at that very moment I was able to see him.
14“Then he said: ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15You will be his witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’
The above make it clear that Saul’s sins were forgiven at the moment of baptism, not the moment of belief. He did not receive the Holy Spirit until he was baptized, which just so happens to be when his sins were forgiven. This is what infusion means. If your belief is true, Ed, he would have been saved long before, because he had direct revelation from Jesus, and thus his belief would have saved him already.
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EdOsiecki
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Nathan, my friend, since Eph 1:13 indicates that the Holy Spirit comes about simply by believing in Jesus and Acts 10:44 has demonstrated so, I ask you to show me the Scripture that the Holy Spirit is infused by water baptism. I never saw any Scripture as such. ED O.
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Nathan_Wagar
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While you are answering my post I will answer yours.
Belief in Christ is what saves us. However, Jesus does not equate belief with head knowledge, but with obedience. Repentance and baptism are part of the commands that make up the obedience that Jesus equates with this belief. This also helps explain why Saul believed, but was not saved until he was baptized. The “head knowledge” belief is what leads the person to repent, be baptized and have his sins forgiven. If he did not believe, the Sacrament would be ineffectual.
Our issue is that you and I have contrasting definitions of what constitutes “belief.” The Catholic view of belief is much more dynamic, fits in with the Jewish concept much more readily, as well as the concept Christ himself appeared to have.
Belief in Christ is what saves us. However, Jesus does not equate belief with head knowledge, but with obedience. Repentance and baptism are part of the commands that make up the obedience that Jesus equates with this belief. This also helps explain why Saul believed, but was not saved until he was baptized. The “head knowledge” belief is what leads the person to repent, be baptized and have his sins forgiven. If he did not believe, the Sacrament would be ineffectual.
Our issue is that you and I have contrasting definitions of what constitutes “belief.” The Catholic view of belief is much more dynamic, fits in with the Jewish concept much more readily, as well as the concept Christ himself appeared to have.
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