"Catholics Reject John Chapter Three"

[Tonks40]

The above was stated in a thread on another topic by one of our forum members, and instead of derailing the thread, I thought I’d start one here to see if our wonderful Catholic members could refute him.

The topic was taking Scripture out of context, in which this member replied:

But catholics reject John chapter three. The apologists simply take the word water from the text call that baptism and reject everything else that is said. It is definitely not a text about baptisim…

…in which I replied:

Strange…then why did John write (John 3:5) "Jesus answered, “Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit” and not get rid of the word “water”? Then later on down in the text, his disciples go out and baptize everyone? Why didn’t they just declare to His followers that they are now born unto the Spirit? Wouldn’t that have sufficed?

There’s more, but I want to get to the gist of the topic of this thread: Do Catholics reject John 3 - IOW, do we focus on particulars of this chapter as prime proof-text of the Sacrament of Baptism - or do we consider all of this chapter as declarations of the Truth?

I say we do and this text IS about Baptism along with rebirth into new life…but our friend feels otherwise

 

[diggerdomer]

The above was stated in a thread on another topic by one of our forum members, and instead of derailing the thread, I thought I’d start one here to see if our wonderful Catholic members could refute him.

The topic was taking Scripture out of context, in which this member replied:

…in which I replied:

There’s more, but I want to get to the gist of the topic of this thread: Do Catholics reject John 3 - IOW, do we focus on particulars of this chapter as prime proof-text of the Sacrament of Baptism - or do we consider all of this chapter as declarations of the Truth?

I say we do and this text IS about Baptism along with rebirth into new life…but our friend feels otherwise

Catholics do not reject John 3 (or any other part of the Bible). Yes, John 3 is an important influence on our theology and practice of baptism.

 

[arcee]

Catholics do not reject John 3. All of the Sacred Scriptures is a basis of our Catholic Faith. How can you say that a part of the Sacred Scriptures we do not believe in? We take all of it in total no more no less.

 

[MaryRegina124]

Indeed, catholics do NOT reject John chapter 3. Steven Ray suggests that the divisions of chapters are not from the original text, so it is enlightening to read the end of chapter 2 with chapter 3, as originally written.

There is more than Baptism discussed in John 3. Indeed, John 3 does form a basis for Baptism of Water and of the Spirit. Baptism is absolutely necessary, since Jesus rarely says “must”, but in this case: “You must be born anew.” (verse 7).

John 3 also sheds light on faith alone being insufficient through verses 19-21, and again in verse 36. this is firm Catholic Teaching in John 3.

 

[geometer]

Jhn 3:1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicode’mus, a ruler of the Jews.

Jhn 3:2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that you do, unless God is with him.”

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Jhn 3:4 Nicode’mus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Jhn 3:7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born anew.’

Jhn 3:8 The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know whence it comes or whither it goes; so it is with every one who is born of the Spirit."

Jhn 3:9 Nicode’mus said to him, “How can this be?”

Jhn 3:10 Jesus answered him, "Are you a teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand this?

Jhn 3:11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen; but you do not receive our testimony.

Jhn 3:12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

Jhn 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man.

Jhn 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of man be lifted up,

Jhn 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life."

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Jhn 3:17 For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.

Jhn 3:18 He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Jhn 3:19 And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Jhn 3:20 For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

Jhn 3:21 But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God.

---

OK, account for this much of the text…

You will notice that baptism is not mentioned in this part. This is generally what is rejected.

 

[diggerdomer]

OK, account for this much of the text…

You will notice that baptism is not mentioned in this part. This is generally what is rejected.

Sorry, I don’t understand. What exactly is rejected? By whom? Thanks.

 

[geometer]

Sorry, I don’t understand. What exactly is rejected? By whom? Thanks.

Explain what the text has said. What is meant by being born again, born of spirit. Comming and going like the wind does, descending from heaven.

“believed in the name of the only Son of God.”

What is this name and why does it have to be believed?

 

[ahollars]

Yet another example of a Protestant lie about the Catholic Church. It’s not enough for them to simply disagree or believe we are wrong. Now, they have to invent things about us to criticize.

 

[diggerdomer]

Explain what the text has said. What is meant by being born again, born of spirit. Comming and going like the wind does, descending from heaven.

“believed in the name of the only Son of God.”

What is this name and why does it have to be believed?

It can mean a number of things. One, for instance, is baptism.

 

[geometer]

Yet another example of a Protestant lie about the Catholic Church. It’s not enough for them to simply disagree or believe we are wrong. Now, they have to invent things about us to criticize.

This is your explaination?

 

[geometer]

It can mean a number of things. One, for instance, is baptism.

Alright, what is the name and why can it mean baptism?

 

[diggerdomer]

Alright, what is the name and why can it mean baptism?

Sorry, I don’t understand what you mean by “what is the name”?

 

[geometer]

Sorry, I don’t understand what you mean by “what is the name”?

Jhn 3:18 He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

 

[diggerdomer]

Jhn 3:18 He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Believe in God. Believe in Jesus.

What’s the complication?

 

[Steven_John]

Luke 10: 25-37
Saved by Loving Our Neighbors and Enemies
A Samaritan Received Eternal Life

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour? And Jesus answering said, A certain [man] went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded [him], and departed, leaving [him] half dead. And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked [on him], and passed by on the other side. But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion [on him], And went to [him], and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave [them] to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee. Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves? And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

When was this Samaritan baptised?
Yeshua (pbwh) was asked and he answered straight.
Why did Yeshua (pbwh) not say he must also speak my name?

To believe in the son is least about the name and most about the way for the way is the name. My Father does not call you as an avery of of parrots. Parrots are not saved for they have not heart to live the way My Father intended for us.

Sacraments are beautiful manifestation of heaven here on earth but we are called to** live** in spirit, that is the name of the son.

 

[DOShea]

The Samaritan wasn’t Baptized… if he was, he wouldn’t have been called a Samaritan.

He is only offered as an example in the parable to demonstrate what is “a neighbor,” with the obvious answer that it is anyone in need.

 

[Steven_John]

The Samaritan wasn’t Baptized… if he was, he wouldn’t have been called a Samaritan.

He is only offered as an example in the parable to demonstrate what is “a neighbor,” with the obvious answer that it is anyone in need.

Not by my understanding, the man asked Yeshua (pbwh) what must i do, get baptised was not the answer.

Why choose a Samaritan because they had the first commandment even thought they did not know Him like the Jews, in the parable he showed the second commandment.

He is only offered as an example in the parable to demonstrate what is “a neighbor,” with the obvious answer that it is anyone in need.

So what do you assert the Samaritan was in need of?

He is narrated to say

Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves

The neighbour he speaks of gave to one in need not was needy but hey i am a poor reader.

 

[geometer]

Believe in God. Believe in Jesus.

What’s the complication?

The question that I have asked is, why does he say that the name has to be believed?

What does his name mean, that it has to be believed?

 

[wmscott]

Jhn 3:1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicode’mus, a ruler of the Jews.

Jhn 3:2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that you do, unless God is with him.”

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Jhn 3:4 Nicode’mus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Jhn 3:7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born anew.’

Jhn 3:8 The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know whence it comes or whither it goes; so it is with every one who is born of the Spirit."

Jhn 3:9 Nicode’mus said to him, “How can this be?”

Jhn 3:10 Jesus answered him, "Are you a teacher of Israel, and yet you do not understand this?

Jhn 3:11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen; but you do not receive our testimony.

Jhn 3:12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

Jhn 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man.

Jhn 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of man be lifted up,

Jhn 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life."

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Jhn 3:17 For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.

Jhn 3:18 He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Jhn 3:19 And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Jhn 3:20 For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

Jhn 3:21 But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God.

---

OK, account for this much of the text…

You will notice that baptism is not mentioned in this part. This is generally what is rejected.

So let’s look at the rest of the chapter of John3. Just taking a portion of the bible and not all you can present any kind of argument you want. It has to be read in full, and in context. To me, by reading the entire chapter of John3, I come away with the impression John is talking about baptism. Am I wrong

22 After this, Jesus and his disciples went into the region of Judea, where he spent some time with them baptizing.
23 John was also baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was an abundance of water there, and people came to be baptized,
24 for John had not yet been imprisoned.
25 Now a dispute arose between the disciples of John and a Jew about ceremonial washings.
26 So they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, the one who was with you across the Jordan, to whom you testified, here he is baptizing and everyone is coming to him.”
27 John answered and said, “No one can receive anything except what has been given him from heaven.
28 You yourselves can testify that I said (that) I am not the Messiah, but that I was sent before him.
29 The one who has the bride is the bridegroom; the best man, who stands and listens for him, rejoices greatly at the bridegroom’s voice. So this joy of mine has been made complete.
30 He must increase; I must decrease.”
31 The one who comes from above is above all. The one who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of earthly things. But the one who comes from heaven (is above all).
32 He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony.
33 Whoever does accept his testimony certifies that God is trustworthy.
34 For the one whom God sent speaks the words of God. He does not ration his gift of the Spirit.
35 The Father loves the Son and has given everything over to him.
36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.

 

[geometer]

So let’s look at the rest of the chapter of John3. Just taking a portion of the bible and not all you can present any kind of argument you want. It has to be read in full, and in context. To me, by reading the entire chapter of John3, I come away with the impression John is talking about baptism. Am I wrong

22 After this, Jesus and his disciples went into the region of Judea, where he spent some time with them baptizing.
23 John was also baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was an abundance of water there, and people came to be baptized,

Of course. There is a complete change of context beginning with verse 22. Which states Jesus and the disciples left the scene. Then it goes on about what John was doing.

The first 21 verses have there own independent context.

It would be easier if someone in this thread would simply answer my questions directly rather than answering my questions with further questions.