"Catholics Reject John Chapter Three"

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…Are all the other versions of the bible wrong and the Duoay / Rhiems bible is the only one that is correct? You would have a hard time convincing me or any bible believer of that…
Two Popes have already declared the vugate translation has imperfections. They have revised it, yet Catholics still adhere to the errors.

Here is an excerpt of their decision:
“In realizing this revision, the old text of the Vulgate edition was taken into consideration word for word, namely, whenever the original texts are accurately rendered, such as they are found in modern critical editions; however the text was prudently improved, whenever it departs from them or interprets them less correctly.”

The complete text can be read at
ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JPTHESAU.HTM
Apostolic Constitution SCRIPTURARUM THESAURUS
Pope John Paul II

Does anyone have a list or the revisions? I know Luke 1:28 was left in error, but I’m hopeful someday the RC will correct the rest of the errors. 👍
 
C
Ginger
oncerning the “born again” issue the church fathers appear to have been associating verse three with verse five.
But Jesus doesn’t mention water in verse 3, and doesn’t mention “again” in verse 5.
It is obvious we must be born again - born of spirit. The question is what does being “born of water” refer to./
Hi Ginger you are exactly right. The church Fathers are combiding v 3 with v 5 to get born “again” of water. They claim that born of water means baptism, but have no Scripture to back it up. I claim the born of water means physical birth. People are referred to as water in PS 144:7, Isa 8:6-7, Jer 47:2 and Rev 17:15. What Jesus is saying in v3 man has to be born again (his spirit) in v 4 Nicodemus wonders how can a man go back into the mother’s womb to be born again? in v 5 Jesus in essence is describing the duality of man,"I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water (physical) and the Spirit (soul) in v 6 Jesus reitterates Flesh gives birth to flesh (physical) but the Spirit gives birth to spirit (soul)

In Ezk people are referred to as bones. Here they are referred to as water/flesh= which is composed of more than 80% of water and is the largest organ of the human body, or could be the water of the womb.

If you substitute baptism for water thusly," no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of baptism and Spirit. How can one be born of baptism? It makes no sence.

Further more if Jesus meant baptism there would be no need for v 6. Jesus would have told Nicodemus go see John and get baptized that’s how you become born again.

As a result of this baptism error, baptism is linked not for repentance as John says what it does, it’s being linked for the forgiveness of sins, Acts 2:38 ignoring v 41, "those who heard accepted his message (gospel) were baptized. It’s the gospel that forgives the sins here not the baptism. In Acts 22:16, "Get up be baptized and wash your sins away, CALLING ON HIS NAME. it’s the calling of Jesus’ name that washes away the sins here. Heb 9:22 very clearly states, “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.” So can baptism then forgive sins? It cannot! ED O.
 
Originally Posted by geometer
But catholics reject John chapter three. The apologists simply take the word water from the text call that baptism and reject everything else that is said. It is definitely not a text about baptisim…

Geometer, I read a bunch of subsequent posts, and I agree that people appear to have been stonewalling you on this question. You asked what that part of John 3 had to do with Baptism, and no one really gave you an answer, that I saw. I’m not qualified to do so either, but fortunately better heads than mine have pondered this before - namely quite a few early Christian writers. Please go see the Catholic Answers Tract called “Born Again in Baptism.” The early Christian writers were unanimous in understanding John 3:5 to be speaking of water Baptism. I will try to give a link, but I’m new to this and don’t know how.

catholic.com/library/Born_Again_in_Baptism.asp

Peace…
 
Ginger
Two Popes have already declared the vugate translation has imperfections. They have revised it, yet Catholics still adhere to the errors.
Here is an excerpt of their decision:
“In realizing this revision, the old text of the Vulgate edition was taken into consideration word for word, namely, whenever the original texts are accurately rendered, such as they are found in modern critical editions; however the text was prudently improved, whenever it departs from them or interprets them less correctly.”
The complete text can be read at
ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JPTHESAU.HTM
Apostolic Constitution SCRIPTURARUM THESAURUS
Pope John Paul II
Hi Ginger, Here’s another error that I stumbled unto last night. The New American Catholic bible in Acts. 8:16, “for it (holy Spirit) had not yet fallen upon any of them;----etc.” Since when is the third PERSON of the Trinity referred to as an “It”.----More correctly it should read, "for he (holy Spirit) had not yet etc,.
Does anyone have a list or the revisions? I know Luke 1:28 was left in error, but I’m hopeful someday the RC will correct the rest of the errors. 👍/
Duoay / Rhiems bible Acts 2:38 “Do penace” instead of “Repent” ED O.
 
Of course it doesn’t say they erred. It’s a Catholic source. Ed wasn’t saying the Website claimed they erred. He was stating they did erred and the evidence is the quotes referenced in the Website.
The evidence in the website does not indicate they erred. That’s Ed’s interpretation.
 
Hi diggerdorme, you better go back and read post 174 again. Almost every one of the church Fathers mentioned there is being quoted thusly: “born AGAIN of water” The bible reads thusly: “born of water” So they are misquoting the Bible. To make matters even worse, the Douay / Rhiems bible which is considered a Catholic bible reads the same , “born AGAIN of water”. I checked more than a dozen of other bible translations and they all read,“Born of water” So I repeat, the church Fathers as well as the Duoay / Rhiems bible are WRONG. What you say about knowing Greek or Latin is NONSENSE! Are all the other versions of the bible wrong and the Duoay / Rhiems bible is the only one that is correct? You would have a hard time convincing me or any bible believer of that. That’s the problem with this forum, you never admit that your wrong, you keep on twisting, rationalizing etc. trying to convince something that is not.ED O.
Got it. Thanks. You’re right, and all the Church Fathers and those who know Greek (the original language of the New Testament) and Latin (the “official” language of the Roman Catholic Church for over a millenium) are wrong.

Thanks for the clarification.

I would appreciate knowing, if you care to share, what the “real” Bible is? Do you have a copy you can share with us (given how apparently through history so many in the Church were wrong)?

Thanks again.
 
Nineofine
Originally Posted by geometer
But catholics reject John chapter three. The apologists simply take the word water from the text call that baptism and reject everything else that is said. It is definitely not a text about baptisim…
Geometer, I read a bunch of subsequent posts, and I agree that people appear to have been stonewalling you on this question. You asked what that part of John 3 had to do with Baptism, and no one really gave you an answer, that I saw. I’m not qualified to do so either, but fortunately better heads than mine have pondered this before - namely quite a few early Christian writers. Please go see the Catholic Answers Tract called “Born Again in Baptism.” The early Christian writers were unanimous in understanding John 3:5 to be speaking of water Baptism. I will try to give a link, but I’m new to this and don’t know how.
Hi Nineofine, Geometer is right. The Born Again tract that you describe here is on my post 174 full of errors. All those church Fathers add the word Again to born of water which is a violation of Scripture Correct “Born of water” Not Born again of water". ED O.
 
Hi Nineofine, Geometer is right. The Born Again tract that you describe here is on my post 174 full of errors. All those church Fathers add the word Again to born of water which is a violation of Scripture Correct “Born of water” Not Born again of water". ED O.
No violation of scripture by the ECFs…just a fuller explanation of what was given to them by the APOSTLES and disciples of Christ. You know them…the ones who actually KNOW what Christ taught?

Unless, of course, you have a better authority source than that…
 
diggerdormer
Got it. Thanks. You’re right, and all the Church Fathers and those who know Greek (the original language of the New Testament) and Latin (the “official” language of the Roman Catholic Church for over a millenium) are wrong.
Thanks for the clarification.
Hi diggerdormer, you just can’t admit that they were wrong along with the Catholic Duoay /Rhiems bible can you? If they were right, you are then saying that all the bibles in existence today are wrong. That would include the New American Catholic bible too because the word again is not in it. You don’t add/subtract from Scripture. It violates God’s law. Born of water is NOT born again of water. You don’t have to be a Latin or Greek Scholar to understand that much. Here’s your problem, If I’m right, not personally but what most all protestants believe, then your whole born again forgiveness of original sin etc.etc. by baptism is bankrupt. Kaput! Nothing! Zilch! Zero!
I would appreciate knowing, if you care to share, what the “real” Bible is? Do you have a copy you can share with us (given how apparently through history so many in the Church were wrong)?
Thanks again
You are welcome! ----In answer to such an asinine question, I suggest this: On May 2,1509, Pope Sixtus V published a new version of Latin Vulgate Bible that was so full of blunders that it had to be withdrawn. Bellarmine and a group of dedicated scholars sworn to secrecy went to work and in about six months corrected the past pope’s errors. A new edition of the “Sixtus Bible” was published as though it were merely another printing of the same, and a massive effort was made to recover the original copies of the heretical publication, which were then destroyed. As one would suspect, a few copies escaped the search and have been preserved (one in the Bodleian Library in Oxford).

Why don’t you travel to the Bodleian Library in Oxford and see what John 3:5 states. Does it say, “born of water” or does it say, “born again of water” Then you come back and tell me if I’m right or wrong. Do we have a deal? ED O.
 
Hi diggerdormer, you just can’t admit that they were wrong along with the Catholic Duoay /Rhiems bible can you? If they were right, you are then saying that all the bibles in existence today are wrong. That would include the New American Catholic bible too because the word again is not in it. You don’t add/subtract from Scripture. It violates God’s law. Born of water is NOT born again of water. You don’t have to be a Latin or Greek Scholar understand that much. Here’s your problem, If I’m right, not personally but what most all protestants believe, then your whole born again forgiveness of original sin etc.etc. is bankrupt. Kaput! Nothing! Zilch! Zero!
You are welcome! ----In answer to such an asinine statement, I suggest this: On May 2,1509, Pope Sixtus V published a new version of Latin Vulgate Bible that was so full of blunders that it had to be withdrawn. Bellarmine and a group of dedicated scholars sworn to secrecy went to work and in about six months corrected the past pope’s errors. A new edition of the “Sixtus Bible” was published as though it were merely another printing of the same, and a massive effort was made to recover the original copies of the heretical publication, which were then destroyed. As one would suspect, a few copies escaped the search and have been preserved (one in the Bodleian Library in Oxford).
 
This is similar to an argument used in John 6 when it is argued that Jesus’ word are Spirit, not His flesh…

Catholics understand this in a Sacramental sense.

“Have
you not read where the prophet says, ‘I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will
cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new
spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh” (Ezekiel 36:25-26).
Now if the water of John 3:5 is merely symbolic, why does the prophet say that it is the water which is
making the individual clean from impurities and providing a new spirit to rest in him? One might protest
that this is merely in the Old Testament. But so were Jesus and Nicodemus in John 3. In fact, in John 3:10
Jesus says to Nicodemus, “You are Israel’s teacher and you do not understand these things? I tell you
the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen,” implying that Nicodemus
should have known these truths from the Old Testament. Just like the Sadducees, we have another case
of someone who, though very familiar with Scripture, missed its true interpretation.
Now am I saying that baptism was practiced in the Old Testament? No, but I am saying that
the Old Testament foreshadowed baptism and its spiritual effects — effects which apply to people both
in the Old and New Testament. Have you not read in 1 Corinthians 10:1-2: “…our forefathers were all
under the cloud and they all passed through the sea. They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and
in the sea.” And have you not read in Acts 16:22 what Ananias says to Paul, “Get up and be baptized and
wash your sins away, calling on his name.” Now, why would Ananias say that Paul’s sins were washed
away precisely at water baptism if the water represented only the word of God or was merely symbolic?
Have you not read what Peter says in 1 Peter 3:20-21 in explaining the flood waters of Noah’s day, “and
this water is the antitype of baptism which now saves us.” Why would Peter say “baptism saves” if the
water was merely symbolic or represented only the word of God? Moreover, if one insists that the
water represents only the word of God, have you not read in John 1:31-34 and John 4:2 in which
baptism was administered with physical water? Is it not unreasonable to think that the water of John 3:5
so suddenly takes on a different meaning, especially since it is surrounded by a context that only refers
to literal water?9

“The above was taken from A robert Sungenis website. He made several good points so I copied and pasted.”
beautfully explained- if I were to hold the position of the non catholic I better quickly skip over this!!! my goodness… yet truth is hard to refute. “lets just ignore it pretend it isn’t here”

a hint of sarcasm and sadness there

but these seeds will grow… if their hearts will soften
 
diggerdormer
Thanks Ed
Sorry, I can’t go to Oxford. Wish I could.
Can you please tell me which Bibles, today, are correct, in your opinion? I thought they all were, but you seem to know better and differently.
Thanks again for your charitable response
Hi diggerdormer, It’s the bible that’s about an inch and a half thick, about 6 by 9 inches with gold sides. I find that one to be best of all. however you might disagree than get the larger one. ED O.
 
Hi diggerdormer, It’s the bible that’s about an inch and a half thick, about 6 by 9 inches with gold sides. I find that one to be best of all. however you might disagree than get the larger one. ED O.
That’s the same one the Church Fathers used, yet you say they were wrong. More help please?
 
Excuse my interjection in the midst of this compelling debate…

could someone enlighten me as to why it even matters if the word AGAIN is in that verse or not? I mean, the verse also doesn’t say “born of water and born again of the Spirit”…and yet some believe that this is how it is to be separated.

How is it that we would think that Nicodemus would understand that water refers to amniotic fluid? I mean, it seems odd to me that Jesus would say water here as referring to natural birth. Why not just say born of the flesh, or born from the womb…why water? Nicodemus had no idea that water refers to human birth. Seems to me that if Jesus wanted to separate bodily birth from spiritual birth, He would’ve used something other that “water” to refer to the former, something that disciples could clearly connect with.
 
Ed. I am going to ask this one last time.

Saint Ignatius of antioch, disciple of John the apostle, the guy that wrote that passage you want to so poorly exegete. Ignatius, the guy that was ordained by the apostles themselves as a bishop:

BEING mindful of your love and of your zeal in Christ, which ye have manifested towards us we thought it fitting to write to you, who display such a godly and spiritual love to the brethren,(2) to put you in remembrance of your Christian course,(3) “that ye all speak the same thing, being of one mind, thinking the same thing, and walking by the same rule of faith,”(4) as Paul admonished you. For if there is one God of the universe, the Father of Christ, “of whom are all things;”(5) and one Lord Jesus Christ, our [Lord], “by whom are all things;”(5) and also one Holy Spirit, who wrought(6) in Moses, and in the prophets and apostles; and also one baptism, which is administered that we should have fellowship with the death of the Lord;(7) and also one elect Church; there ought likewise to be but one faith in respect to Christ. For “there is one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is through all, and in all.”(8)

He seems to think (as Paul and Peter already point out many times) that BAPTISM is what actually makes you participate in the blood shed on calvary. Why do you think his interpretation is wrong, when he was taught by John? Who is your authority Ed? Don’t say the word of God, because John helped write it, he told Ignatius what it means. Who told you, Ed? And why are they right? Don’t go off on a tangent, answer the question.
 
Tonk40
No violation of scripture by the ECFs…just a fuller explanation of what was given to them by the APOSTLES and disciples of Christ. You know them…the ones who actually KNOW what Christ taught?
Unless, of course, you have a better authority source than that
Hi Tonks40, where you there when all of that was taking place so that you can tell me for certain that’s exactly what really happened? Because God warns not to add or subtract from Scripture. Prov.30:6, Duet 4:2, 1 Cor 4:6 and in Rev 22:18 there’s a punishment for doing so. All Scripture is inspired by God. God help the person who gets in God’s way. As you can see, how much confussion comes about by one little added word “again”. ED O.
 
Oh yeah, Ed, and just because it’s your pet argument, scholars have convincingly made the argument that the “don’t add or take away” statement is specific to the book of Revelation, because it was meant to be read in a liturgical setting. That’s if I REALLY wanted to nitpick.

I’d also like to point out that you mistranslated and added a word that didn’t even exist into the verse from Peter’s epistle, so I’d say you have to at least admit that you and the fathers are on “equal ground.”
 
Hi diggerdormer, It’s the bible that’s about an inch and a half thick, about 6 by 9 inches with gold sides. I find that one to be best of all. however you might disagree than get the larger one. ED O.
Is that the one Jesus handed out? Oh wait I think He handed over the keys to the Kingdom… and something about binding and loosing… buiding a Church… His Church. And I recall something about how to handle a situation where someone sins (see below) against you. I think He said to take it to the Bible I’ve handed to you… I mean the Church I established. Which Church would that be? How far can you trace your authority back?

sin - hamartano {ham-ar-tan’-o} perhaps from 1 (as a negative particle) and the base of 3313; TDNT - 1:267,44; v 1) to be without a share in 2) to miss the mark 3) to err, be mistaken 4) to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honour, to do or go wrong 5) to wander from the law of God, violate God’s law, sin
 
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