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zach_dunn
Guest
The Didache talked about pouring and sprinkling, it was obviously the norm and ok in Apostolic times, they all did the same thing; namely infused the Holy Spirit into our soul.
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geometer
Guest
Couldn’t you walk in the rain and get the same effect?The Didache talked about pouring and sprinkling, it was obviously the norm and ok in Apostolic times, they all did the same thing; namely infused the Holy Spirit into our soul.
And what about the Einstein quote?
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zach_dunn
Guest
To be a valid baptism you have to have the intent of baptism, I don’t think there are too many people who intend to be baptized by the rain as they walk through it, plus there are other requirements that must be met before a baptism can be considered valid.Couldn’t you walk in the rain and get the same effect?
What does my Einstein quote have anything to do with this topic?And what about the Einstein quote?
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geometer
Guest
I have found some counting coincidences that He might be hiding behind. There is even a Rabbi who is interested.What does my Einstein quote have anything to do with this topic?
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zach_dunn
Guest
Counting coincidences? Rabbi? This might be a simple connection but I’m completely missing it, care to explain?I have found some counting coincidences that He might be hiding behind. There is even a Rabbi who is interested.
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EdOsiecki
Guest
Hi Nathan, I disagree per the following: Acts 22:10, When Paul got up he said,“What shall I do Lord?’” ‘Get up’, the Lord said, ‘and go into Damacus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do.’ Paul would have had to believe in Jesus at this point. He was saved waiting to ber assigned. Jesus would not have assigned an unbeliever.------Gal 1:11, Paul states," I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. v 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor taught it; rather, I received it by REVELATION from Jesus Christ. He was baptized in water by Ananias for repentance, not to receive the Holy Spirit as you claim. When Ananias laid hands on him, he was healed and baptized in the Holy Spirit all at the same time. We know that He spoke in tongues. Nowhwere, in Scripture does it say that speaking in tongues comes by water baptism. And nowhere in Scripture does it say that someone, other than Ananias, laid hands on him, in order to receive the gift of tongues. ED O.Posted by Nathan
Ed you know I posted Acts 22 and Acts 9 together. That’s exactly what it says. The two passages clarify the same event. There is no way you can argue yourself out of the fact that Paul was saved when he was baptized, not when he believed
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geometer
Guest
Oh, it has nothing to do with the topic of the thread, I simply thought that it might be useful for my webpage:Counting coincidences? Rabbi? This might be a simple connection but I’m completely missing it, care to explain?
www.theosopher.com
I believe that it was either Doris Lessing or Bernie Siegel who said that first.
Here is a link to Google:
365 Prescriptions for the Soul
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Nathan_Wagar
Guest
“Hi Nathan, I disagree per the following: Acts 22:10, When Paul got up he said,“What shall I do Lord?’” ‘Get up’, the Lord said, ‘and go into Damacus. There you will be told all that you have been assigned to do.’ Paul would have had to believe in Jesus at this point. He was saved waiting to ber assigned. Jesus would not have assigned an unbeliever.------Gal 1:11, Paul states,” I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. v 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor taught it; rather, I received it by REVELATION from Jesus Christ. He was baptized in water by Ananias for repentance, not to receive the Holy Spirit as you claim. When Ananias laid hands on him, he was healed and baptized in the Holy Spirit all at the same time. We know that He spoke in tongues. Nowhwere, in Scripture does it say that speaking in tongues comes by water baptism. And nowhere in Scripture does it say that someone, other than Ananias, laid hands on him, in order to receive the gift of tongues. ED O."
**RESPONSE: Hey Ed. Jesus would not have assigned an unbeliever? Doesn’t that seem a bit presumptuous? That is irelevant however, for a few reasons.
**RESPONSE: Hey Ed. Jesus would not have assigned an unbeliever? Doesn’t that seem a bit presumptuous? That is irelevant however, for a few reasons.
- Paul did not have his sins forgiven until he rose and was baptized, not when he had the hands laid on him. Ananias makes a distinction between the two, and I pointed this out already. He lays hands on him to heal him, then he says to arise and be baptized and wash his sins away. You have to look at both accounts of the same passage, not just one.
- If Paul’s sins were not forgiven, then he wasn’t filled with the Holy Spirit prior.
- This effectively shows that Paul did NOT receive the Holy Spirit upon belief, since his sins were not forgiven yet.
- Your belief that Ananias laid hands and administered a baptism of the Holy Spirit is flawed. How would Ananias know whether or not true belief was present? According to you, Saul should already have been baptized with the Holy Spirit upon belief, not when Ananias laid hands on him, so your position is also contradictory. Nobody has hands laid on them before a valid water baptism in the Bible, so you have no precedent for this belief either.**
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Nathan_Wagar
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Eph 1:3, “ In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This Scripture very clearly says, SEALED by the Holy Spirit at the moment of belief. We know that Paul spoke in tongues, from where did he get that baptism? When Ananias laid hands on him.
Your problem is you don’t differentiate between sealed and baptism. Prior to Pentecost all the apostles were sealed by the Holy Spirit when they believed, they then received the Power (Acts 1:8) of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. B]RESPONSE: It doesn’t say at the exact moment, it says when we believe. I have already covered how the Bible’s definition of belief differs from yours. You are arguing in circles again
Yes two baptisms ( 1 ) Water baptism for repentance, ( 2 ) Baptism in the Holy Spirit by the laying of hands. The POWER that Jesus spoke of in Acts 1:8. This baptism power was then passed on by the laying of hands and the people spoke in tongues. Per Acts 8:17 & Acts 19:6.** RESPONSE: I’m glad you admitted that, Ed, because Ephesians 4 says there is only one baptism. You walked right back into the Ephesians argument.**
I’ve asked you repeatedly, show me the Scripture where the Spirit comes through water baptism and you have not, because there’s is no such Scripture. Response: I did show you Ed, but instead of accepting the text at face value, you have to insert “baptism by the Holy Spirit” where it merely says baptism. Paul recieved forgiveness of sins when he arose to be baptized, not upon belief, and not prior to rising when the hands were laid on him. Acts is quite clear, word for word on this. It’s not my fault if you use the same arguments I keep refuting. You even walked right back into my Ephesians argument by saying two baptisms are necessary! I mean come on Ed talk about circular!
You completely ignore my third response above Eph 1:3 It’s not about making more sense, it’s has to be verified by Scripture which Eph 1:3 above does. You are implying that the Holy Spirit comes by water baptism but have no Scripture proof. Response: Ed you are ignoring the Scriptural proof, and making poorly constructed arguments. I did not deny Ephesians, I merely pointed out that your definition of “belief” is unbiblical.
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Nowhere in the Bible does it say that sins are forgiven by water baptism. There’s always words added to it. In this particular case you very conveniently omit that the sins are washed away BY CALLING OF HIS NAME. It’s the calling upon Jesus’ name that washes away the sins. Joel 2:32, “And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Rom 10:13, “Everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.” We are saved by his name not by water baptism. Back to Eph 1:3. Above read it and believe it. If baptism is required for the forgiveness of sins and to receive the Holy Spirit, it then becomes works something we must do, which violates Eph 2:8-9, “For it is by grace you have been saved through faith—and not from yourselves, it is the GIFT of God. V 9 Not by works, so that no one can boast.” Now I’m showing you Scripture proof and you show me what you think that makes sense. ED O. **Response: Ed, considering that the water baptism is made in the name of the Lord, and is a Sacrament (holy oath invoking the name), the onus is on you to show that baptism is NOT calling on Jesus’ name. Also, you state the baptism of the Holy Spirit and water are two separate events (thus violating Ephesians). The baptism of the Holy Spirit should have come upon belief, correct? So the only baptism LEFT by your argument in the passage in Acts would be the water baptism, correct? And yet it is this water baptism that Ananias says forgives Saul’s sins. You can’t have it both ways Ed. First you want to say that Saul believ and was saved already, then you want to say he was baptized by the Holy Spirit and forgiven when Ananias laid hands on him. If he was already saved by belief, Ed, then he didn’t need to have his sins forgiven a second time. Your argument is sounding a bit schizophrenic, and is going in circles, a sure sign that you’re caught. And if you would like to debate Justification, start a new thread. The point of works is outside of grace, because they obligate God. Good works done through grace do not obligate God, they are merely our way of pleasing the heavenly Father. Besides, you say baptism would be a work. Yet you would most likely differentiate between “faith” and “saving faith,” yes? And yet faith involves the will, and so is a work. You may say “oh but it’s faith through grace.” I will just reply “works through grace.” Again, save justification for another thread. We are sticking solely with baptism, and you have failed to explain the text at all in a way that is not contradictory. **
Your problem is you don’t differentiate between sealed and baptism. Prior to Pentecost all the apostles were sealed by the Holy Spirit when they believed, they then received the Power (Acts 1:8) of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. B]RESPONSE: It doesn’t say at the exact moment, it says when we believe. I have already covered how the Bible’s definition of belief differs from yours. You are arguing in circles again
Yes two baptisms ( 1 ) Water baptism for repentance, ( 2 ) Baptism in the Holy Spirit by the laying of hands. The POWER that Jesus spoke of in Acts 1:8. This baptism power was then passed on by the laying of hands and the people spoke in tongues. Per Acts 8:17 & Acts 19:6.** RESPONSE: I’m glad you admitted that, Ed, because Ephesians 4 says there is only one baptism. You walked right back into the Ephesians argument.**
I’ve asked you repeatedly, show me the Scripture where the Spirit comes through water baptism and you have not, because there’s is no such Scripture. Response: I did show you Ed, but instead of accepting the text at face value, you have to insert “baptism by the Holy Spirit” where it merely says baptism. Paul recieved forgiveness of sins when he arose to be baptized, not upon belief, and not prior to rising when the hands were laid on him. Acts is quite clear, word for word on this. It’s not my fault if you use the same arguments I keep refuting. You even walked right back into my Ephesians argument by saying two baptisms are necessary! I mean come on Ed talk about circular!
You completely ignore my third response above Eph 1:3 It’s not about making more sense, it’s has to be verified by Scripture which Eph 1:3 above does. You are implying that the Holy Spirit comes by water baptism but have no Scripture proof. Response: Ed you are ignoring the Scriptural proof, and making poorly constructed arguments. I did not deny Ephesians, I merely pointed out that your definition of “belief” is unbiblical.
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Nowhere in the Bible does it say that sins are forgiven by water baptism. There’s always words added to it. In this particular case you very conveniently omit that the sins are washed away BY CALLING OF HIS NAME. It’s the calling upon Jesus’ name that washes away the sins. Joel 2:32, “And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Rom 10:13, “Everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.” We are saved by his name not by water baptism. Back to Eph 1:3. Above read it and believe it. If baptism is required for the forgiveness of sins and to receive the Holy Spirit, it then becomes works something we must do, which violates Eph 2:8-9, “For it is by grace you have been saved through faith—and not from yourselves, it is the GIFT of God. V 9 Not by works, so that no one can boast.” Now I’m showing you Scripture proof and you show me what you think that makes sense. ED O. **Response: Ed, considering that the water baptism is made in the name of the Lord, and is a Sacrament (holy oath invoking the name), the onus is on you to show that baptism is NOT calling on Jesus’ name. Also, you state the baptism of the Holy Spirit and water are two separate events (thus violating Ephesians). The baptism of the Holy Spirit should have come upon belief, correct? So the only baptism LEFT by your argument in the passage in Acts would be the water baptism, correct? And yet it is this water baptism that Ananias says forgives Saul’s sins. You can’t have it both ways Ed. First you want to say that Saul believ and was saved already, then you want to say he was baptized by the Holy Spirit and forgiven when Ananias laid hands on him. If he was already saved by belief, Ed, then he didn’t need to have his sins forgiven a second time. Your argument is sounding a bit schizophrenic, and is going in circles, a sure sign that you’re caught. And if you would like to debate Justification, start a new thread. The point of works is outside of grace, because they obligate God. Good works done through grace do not obligate God, they are merely our way of pleasing the heavenly Father. Besides, you say baptism would be a work. Yet you would most likely differentiate between “faith” and “saving faith,” yes? And yet faith involves the will, and so is a work. You may say “oh but it’s faith through grace.” I will just reply “works through grace.” Again, save justification for another thread. We are sticking solely with baptism, and you have failed to explain the text at all in a way that is not contradictory. **
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ryanoneil
Guest
Except Col 2:12 doesn’t say “repentance”. It says baptism.Col 2:12 is a repeat of what I mentioned Rom 6:4 ED O.
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zach_dunn
Guest
This is what I got when I searched my quote, it’s all Einstein. There’s a variation that goes “Coincidences are God’s way of remaining anonymous” and that one is attributed to Doris Lessing. I don’t really know why it matters who said it first, I looked the quote up and I got Einstein so that’s who I used.Oh, it has nothing to do with the topic of the thread, I simply thought that it might be useful for my webpage:
www.theosopher.com
I believe that it was either Doris Lessing or Bernie Siegel who said that first.
Here is a link to Google:
365 Prescriptions for the Soul
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geometer
Guest
People creating webpages on the net have been wrong before. I went to books.google.com to see what published authors attribute the quote to Einstien. Not many of them do, it is only found in a few new age books.This is what I got when I searched my quote, it’s all Einstein. There’s a variation that goes “Coincidences are God’s way of remaining anonymous” and that one is attributed to Doris Lessing. I don’t really know why it matters who said it first, I looked the quote up and I got Einstein so that’s who I used.
If Einstein did say that find a quote in a reputable book that gives the context of the quote. Was Einstein responding to what someone said? Was he simply expounding a personal hunch? Why did he say it?
Bernie Segal created a small note on coincidence in his medical practice, and he gave this as the title “Prescription 356: God’s Way of Remaining Anonymous”
This is in his book “365 Prescriptions for the Soul”
His books are extremely popular, and it seems everyone did a take from what he wrote. Some new age writer, said it was Einsteins idea and it went viral on the net…
Research a little deeper. Find the book in which it was published. I could be wrong but it looks like Dr. Bernie Seigel to me…
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geometer
Guest
The complete phrase occured in a book written by Dr. Seigel in 1988. But the phrase appears in quotes in his book and I can not get the full context of the passage, so it still could be Einstein, but the majority of books attribute the author of the phrase to be Bernie Seigle. And the earliest book that contains the phrase after Seigels publication is 1995.
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zach_dunn
Guest
The complete phrase occured in a book written by Dr. Seigel in 1988.
Question: Why does it bother you so much?People creating webpages on the net have been wrong before. I went to books.google.com to see what published authors attribute the quote to Einstien. Not many of them do, it is only found in a few new age books.
If Einstein did say that find a quote in a reputable book that gives the context of the quote. Was Einstein responding to what someone said? Was he simply expounding a personal hunch? Why did he say it?
Bernie Segal created a small note on coincidence in his medical practice, and he gave this as the title “Prescription 356: God’s Way of Remaining Anonymous”
This is in his book “365 Prescriptions for the Soul”
His books are extremely popular, and it seems everyone did a take from what he wrote. Some new age writer, said it was Einsteins idea and it went viral on the net…
Research a little deeper. Find the book in which it was published. I could be wrong but it looks like Dr. Bernie Seigel to me…
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geometer
Guest
Well, why does it matter so little to you? There is value to accademic honesty, don’t you think?Question: Why does it bother you so much?
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panevino
Guest
Ed.O.
I suggested it may be your concern in my untidy post #161
have been enjoying your discussion with Nathan.
You guys obviously don’t have young kids, to be able to spend this much time on this.
I thought that was your concern.If baptism is required for the forgiveness of sins and to receive the Holy Spirit, it then becomes works something we must do, which violates Eph 2:8-9, “For it is by grace you have been saved through faith—and not from yourselves, it is the GIFT of God. V 9 Not by works, so that no one can boast.”
I suggested it may be your concern in my untidy post #161
have been enjoying your discussion with Nathan.
You guys obviously don’t have young kids, to be able to spend this much time on this.
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Nathan_Wagar
Guest
Eh. online courses.
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zach_dunn
Guest
From what I read, the quote was taken from Einstein’s book, The World As I See It. The book is made of a bunch of his writings put together, most of the writings were written in 1932. Einstein did say this, so I have no problem attributing the quote to him; I see no academic dishonesty in that.Well, why does it matter so little to you? There is value to academic honesty, don’t you think?
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geometer
Guest
The World as I See ItFrom what I read, the quote was taken from Einstein’s book, The World As I See It. The book is made of a bunch of his writings put together, most of the writings were written in 1932. Einstein did say this, so I have no problem attributing the quote to him; I see no academic dishonesty in that.
I could not find the quote in his essay.
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zach_dunn
Guest
You admit that there is a baptism of water AND a baptism of the Holy Spirit. Unfortunately for you, the Bible explicitly states that there is only ONE baptism [Eph 4:5]. But how is this possible?! Well, Jesus believes they are one [Jn 3:5] and that that one baptism is necessary to be saved. The imposition of hands is for Confirmation, NOT baptism; Hebrews 6:2 separates these two because they are different.MY RESPONSE: Yes two baptisms ( 1 ) Water baptism for repentance, ( 2 ) Baptism in the Holy Spirit by the laying of hands. The POWER that Jesus spoke of in Acts 1:8. This baptism power was then passed on by the laying of hands and the people spoke in tongues. Per Acts 8:17 & Acts 19:6
either Ananias means arise and be baptized by the Spirit, which does not come at the moment of belief (so when does it come?), or he means water baptism through which the Spirit comes.
Hebrews 6:2
“2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and imposition of hands, and of the resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.”
As you can see, baptisms (or ablutions) are separated from the imposition of hands which refers to Confirmation.
SIGHMY RESPONSE: Nowhere in the Bible does it say that sins are forgiven by water baptism.
Acts 2:38
“38 But Peter said to them: Do penance, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins: and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
How do you intend to sidestep this?
There’s always Mark 16:16 and 1 Peter 3:21 . . . there is also 1 Corinthians 6:11, if we are justified AND sanctified by the “washing”, we have no sin.There’s always words added to it. In this particular case you very conveniently omit that the sins are washed away BY CALLING OF HIS NAME. It’s the calling upon Jesus’ name that washes away the sins. Joel 2:32, “And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Rom 10:13, “Everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.” We are saved by his name not by water baptism.
Baptism is not something we do, we don’t baptize ourselves. Baptism is received, it is not a work it is a gift given by God, just like faith. Baptism could only be considered a work for the person performing the baptism, but the baptism doesn’t help them in any way; baptism is not a work, therefore it doesn’t contradict Ephesians 2:8-9.Back to Eph 1:3. Above read it and believe it. If baptism is required for the forgiveness of sins and to receive the Holy Spirit, it then becomes works something we must do, which violates Eph 2:8-9, “For it is by grace you have been saved through faith—and not from yourselves, it is the GIFT of God. V 9 Not by works, so that no one can boast.” Now I’m showing you Scripture proof and you show me what you think that makes sense. ED O.
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