"Catholics Reject John Chapter Three"

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In defense of Ed (although I myself am somewhat of a Nathan fan too)…

I don’t think Ed supports the notion of the epistles negating Jesus. He simply mistook Nathan’s comments, and somehow thought Nathan was saying that. Atleast, I would hope this is all just a case of misunderstanding.
 
posted by Bob4VMB
Ed:
You state here: “Also would you show me the Scripture where it states that the epistles can’t negate (overide) what Jesus says.”
Are you serious, or do I badly mis-read what you mean to say here ?
“negate (overide) what Jesus says.” ???
Where are you coming from with this ???
btw, what denomination is “etc.”
You badly mis-read what I said there
ED.O
 
{Posted by Benedictus2
We do not state exactly when the Holy Spirit is given, but during our baptism whether it is during of after our immersion, the Holy Spirit
The whole point of the matter is water is necessary for this entire process because Jesus SAID SO.
I know that baptism is commanded per Mat 28:19, the point of contention is when does the indwelling of the Holy Spirit come into the human body ( A ) upon belief In the name of Jesus ( B ) Or at “water” baptism. I say the former
No we never said that. That is not our theology at all
It most certainly is your theology, It’s been said throughout this whole thread by Nathan
Again, we never said that the Holy Spirit is “infused through water” baptism
Nathan very clearly stated several times that the Holy Spirit is INFUSED by “water” baptism.
All we are saving is that we are cleansed from sin during (origina and personal) and that sometime during this process we call baptism, we are also given the Holy Spriit
Here’s where you and I disagree, 1 Pet 3:21 very clearly states that “water” baptism is a pledge of a good conscience towards God. It’s the precious Blood of Jesus that forgives us from our sins in Mat 26:28, Jesus is talking, “This is my blood -----which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.” And verified in Rev 1:5, “To Him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by His Blood.”. So Peter says "water’ baptism is asking God to forgive us of our sins. While the belief in Jesus’s Blood is what atoned for the sins. That’s when the process is complete and we are Sealed by the Holy Spirit exactly what Eph. 1:13 states.
The “baptism of the Holy Spirit” is what happens at Confirmation
That is true with the evidence of speaking in tongues. If you don’t speak in tongues what evidence do you have that you received the Holy Spirit? ED O.
 
Ed .That is true with the evidence of speaking in tongues. If you don’t speak in tongues what evidence do you have that you received the Holy Spirit? ED O.
there’s that verse about different gifts to each. Ie not all get tounges (abilitiy to speak other languages that apostels got)
 
Posted by Bob4BVM
Nathan-
Very well put, VERY clear. Add me to you cheering section !
Maybe Ed has a verse by Paul that would cancel out Christ’s act of breathing on them to receive the HS?
Cheerleader Bob, tell me were the 109 people other than the apostles in the upper room saved prior to Pentecost or not? ED O.
 
Yeah Ed. And the tiny matter that tongues will die out as a gift. How oh how must we know, then? Maybe it’s because apostolic authority told us that baptism saves us. I pointed out a awhile back how you tend to confuse your terms, and take contradicting positions. I don’t believe you have a clear concept of the distinctions between laying on of hands, what the Holy Spirit actually does, etc. You have a tendency to to deny clear words of Scripture, but you don’t back it up with other Scripture, you simply go off your theology. For instance your priceless interpretation of what Ananias really means by washing away sins. Apparently he meant guilt. Right. Sure Ed. Based off of what? That verse you provided that I refuted in the Greek that you never responded to?

Your opinion of making progress in this debate tends to revolve around bring up a scatterblast of verses that actually COMPLEMENT our theology. However, when I come up with a passage that does not complement yours, but actually contradicts it, you don’t turn to Scripture, you turn to what you believe about Scripture.

For instance, you stated that the laying on of hands is merely sealing the presence of the Holy Spirit. However, you have also stated that the Holy Spirit cannot dwell in a sinful man. Because of this, you run into the contradiction that Ananias “received” the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands, but did not have his sins washed away. So then you have to redefine what Ananias really meant. To do this, you provide one verse, which I refuted. You do not respond to this refutation. Then you try to argue out of it by providing random other verses that fit our theology quite well, for instance the blood being what washes away our sins. However you ignore that the baptism is what makes us partakers in that atoning death. Everywhere you turn, you have to change the definition of words and passages to escape the hole you dig yourself into.

You keep pointing to “belief” but ignore the fact that Jesu equates belief with obedience. Then you ironically try to point to Paul to say that “it isn’t what Jesus meant.” You say that would be a work, but you ignore Catholic theology of works through grace, so you don’t seem to understand that that in itself does not refute our position.

This is why I am so relentless with you on one particular passage at a time, because otherwise you tend to wander in circles. You have been unable to explain that Ananias really meant guilt for sins, as opposed to exactly what he said.
 
And Ed, don’t try to trap him, because I already know where you think you are going with that argument. And that argument was answered in a previous post about temporal and eternal timelines. You have yet to respond to it, so let’s stop the labelling and give an intelligently thought out post.
 
Posted by panevino
there’s that verse about different gifts to each. Ie not all get tounges (abilitiy to speak other languages that apostels got
By what you state here indicates that you no nothing about Petecostalism. Allow me to show you something about tongues. Mark 16:15-16, “Go into the world and preach the good news to all creation. v16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned, v17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues----” Now you are a “water” baptized believer aren’t you? What does this mean to you, “they will speak in new tongues”? ED O.
 
Posted by Nathan
Define belief, Ed. Define it without contradicting Jesus
Hi Nathan we had quite a session the other night. It’s good to see you back. Now which version of the dictionary do you want me to use? ED O

P.S. Did you noticed that benedictus2 agrees with me . That there is on Infusion of the Holy Spirit at “water” baptism. I thought that It would be nice for you to know that.
 
Posted by Nathan
Yeah Ed. And the tiny matter that tongues will die out as a gift. How oh how must we know, then? Maybe it’s because apostolic authority told us that baptism saves us. I pointed out a awhile back how you tend to confuse your terms, and take contradicting positions. I don’t believe you have a clear concept of the distinctions between laying on of hands, what the Holy Spirit actually does, etc. You have a tendency to to deny clear words of Scripture, but you don’t back it up with other Scripture, you simply go off your theology. For instance your priceless interpretation of what Ananias really means by washing away sins. Apparently he meant guilt. Right. Sure Ed. Based off of what? That verse you provided that I refuted in the Greek that you never responded to?
Your opinion of making progress in this debate tends to revolve around bring up a scatterblast of verses that actually COMPLEMENT our theology. However, when I come up with a passage that does not complement yours, but actually contradicts it, you don’t turn to Scripture, you turn to what you believe about Scripture.
For instance, you stated that the laying on of hands is merely sealing the presence of the Holy Spirit. However, you have also stated that the Holy Spirit cannot dwell in a sinful man. Because of this, you run into the contradiction that Ananias “received” the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands, but did not have his sins washed away. So then you have to redefine what Ananias really meant. To do this, you provide one verse, which I refuted. You do not respond to this refutation. Then you try to argue out of it by providing random other verses that fit our theology quite well, for instance the blood being what washes away our sins. However you ignore that the baptism is what makes us partakers in that atoning death. Everywhere you turn, you have to change the definition of words and passages to escape the hole you dig yourself into.
You keep pointing to “belief” but ignore the fact that Jesu equates belief with obedience. Then you ironically try to point to Paul to say that “it isn’t what Jesus meant.” You say that would be a work, but you ignore Catholic theology of works through grace, so you don’t seem to understand that that in itself does not refute our position.
This is why I am so relentless with you on one particular passage at a time, because otherwise you tend to wander in circles. You have been unable to explain that Ananias really meant guilt for sins, as opposed to exactly what he said
There you go again! How can anyone debate you when you write so much at one time? There are many things here that I would like discuss with you, but there’s too much at one time to do so. As a matter of fact, it seems to me like that is the reason that you post so much. In order to confuse the issue at hand. ED O.

P.S. Posted by Nathan above:“Your opinion of making progress in this debate tends to revolve around bring up a scatterblast of verses that actually COMPLEMENT our theology. However, when I come up with a passage that does not complement yours, but actually contradicts it, you don’t turn to Scripture, you turn to what you believe about Scripture.”----- MY RESPONSE: That’s a bunch of baloney! I’m the one that is always asking for Scriptures and it’s you that give me statements of what you think. I’ve asked you for the Scripture that shows by 'water" baptism the Holy Spirit is, as you say, is “infused” and you never came up with one and then finally admitted there isn’t any. ED O.
 
Ed. Don’t put your definition back into Jesus’ 1st century definition. You are only demonstrating you don’t understand the semitic totality concept, as well as the fact that Jesus equates obedience with belief.

1215: This sacrament is also called “the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit,” for it signifies and actually brings about the birth of water and the Spirit without which no one "can enter the kingdom of God."7

1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.66 In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam’s sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.

1266 The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:
  • enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues;
  • giving them the power to live and act under the prompting of the Holy Spirit through the gifts of the Holy Spirit;
  • allowing them to grow in goodness through the moral virtues.
    Thus the whole organism of the Christian’s supernatural life has its roots in Baptism.
1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, **infused **by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48

My definition is correct Ed. Don’t try to pit Catholics against Catholics. We have opinions, and they can be wrong. It doesn’t make you right.
 
And no, Ed, I didn’t “admit” any such thing. I “admitted” that the *term *infusion is not found in the Bible. Neither is *trinity *or *original *sin. You failed to comment on that, or why you use those two other terms to begin with when they were defined by the Catholic Church. Just because a concept is not defined, does not mean it doesn’t exist.

As for the length of my posts, I kept them short, then you made them long, so I responded in kind. Don’t try to accuse me of avoiding arguments, anybody reading this can attest that I am more than happy to stay on the subject of Ananias and Saul, since you haven’t effectively dealt with that.
 
Posted by Nathan
For instance, you stated that the laying on of hands is merely sealing the presence of the Holy Spirit. However, you have also stated that the Holy Spirit cannot dwell in a sinful man. Because of this, you run into the contradiction that Ananias “received” the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands, but did not have his sins washed away. So then you have to redefine what Ananias really meant. To do this, you provide one verse, which I refuted. You do not respond to this refutation. Then you try to argue out of it by providing random other verses that fit our theology quite well, for instance the blood being what washes away our sins. However you ignore that the baptism is what makes us partakers in that atoning death. Everywhere you turn, you have to change the definition of words and passages to escape the hole you dig yourself into.
Okay! Show me were I said that Ananias received the Holy Spirit by the laying of hands. ED O.
 
Lol oh dear Ed, are you serious? I highlighted the pertinent statements. Please pay more attention to what you write in the future. I do.

Post 604:

Here’s Nathan’s response:
Ananias did not specify the exact moment when he would get the Holy Spirit, only that he would get it. And doesn’t it seem to you that if Ananias was infusing the Holy Spirit at this point, Paul would have gotten it when his hands were still on him and not after he gets up?-----PLEASE NOTE: In Plain English the Scripture says that Ananias laid hands on him to be healed and also to be FILLED with the Holy Spirit. Then Nathan says, “but it does not say the exact moment he received the Holy Spirit. He goes on to say that Paul then received the Holy Spirit when he got up and was baptized. PLEASE PAY ATTENTION; Way back there somewhere I asked Nathan to show me the Scripture where the Holy Spirit is infused by water baptism. Finally on post 454 he admits there isn’t any. Now he states that Paul received the Holy Spirit when he got baptized. How crazy can this get ???

The Bible is very clear. The only way that the Holy Spirit is infused ( in dwelling with the evidence of speaking in tongues) is by the laying of hands which Ananias had done. In Acts 8:12 the people believed the gospel and were water baptized but they did not received the Holy Spirit until Peter and John came down and laid hands on them. In Acts 19: 2-6 The people were water baptized but had not received the Holy Spirit until Paul laid hands on them and they spoke in tongues. We know that Paul spoke in tongues. From where did he then get the Holy Spirit? It had to be when Ananias laid hands on him, because the Holy Spirit does not come by water baptism. There’s no Scriptures to say that it does. ED O.
 
Posted by Nathan
Ed. Don’t put your definition back into Jesus’ 1st century definition. You are only demonstrating you don’t understand the semitic totality concept, as well as the fact that Jesus equates obedience with belief.
1215: This sacrament is also called “the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit,” for it signifies and actually brings about the birth of water and the Spirit without which no one "can enter the kingdom of God."7
1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.66 In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam’s sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.
1266 The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:
  • enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues;
  • giving them the power to live and act under the prompting of the Holy Spirit through the gifts of the Holy Spirit;
  • allowing them to grow in goodness through the moral virtues.
    Thus the whole organism of the Christian’s supernatural life has its roots in Baptism.
1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, **infused **by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48
My definition is correct Ed. Don’t try to pit Catholics against Catholics. We have opinions, and they can be wrong. It doesn’t make you right
Nathan! This post proves 100% that I’m right on post 666 and that is, I that demand Scripturre proof and you give NONE. You dance around with what you think or what someone else wrote or said.

The Catholic Catechism is NOT Scripture. There’s not EVEN ONE SCRIPTURE mentioned on this entire posts. ED O>
 
Ed you are missing the point of that post. I posted that to show you the official Catholic teaching on infusion, to clear up any misunderstanding about what benedictus said. This is why you can’t pit Catholics against each other; we have an authoritative tradition as well. You haven’t grasped this, which is why you seem to think interesting little ideas like NAB footnotes and commentary being the “final solution” lol. I on the other hand, can pit Protestants aginst each other, because they have no tradition, except their own conscience. Your opinion is no better than mine, according to your theology, and I’m interested why you never took me up on my offer to post many many links leading you to Protestants that disagree with you about baptism. Why are you right? Why, Ed? Why are they wrong? Who really has the correct interpretation, you? You can’t even remember what you write half the time, why should I believe you? Do you see why this could be seen as a fruitless endeavor?
 
Posted by Nathan
Ed. Don’t put your definition back into Jesus’ 1st century definition. You are only demonstrating you don’t understand the semitic totality concept, as well as the fact that Jesus equates obedience with belief.
1215: This sacrament is also called “the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit,” for it signifies and actually brings about the birth of water and the Spirit without which no one "can enter the kingdom of God."7
1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.66 In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam’s sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.
1266 The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:
  • enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues;
  • giving them the power to live and act under the prompting of the Holy Spirit through the gifts of the Holy Spirit;
  • allowing them to grow in goodness through the moral virtues.
    Thus the whole organism of the Christian’s supernatural life has its roots in Baptism.
1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, **infused **by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48
My definition is correct Ed. Don’t try to pit Catholics against Catholics. We have opinions, and they can be wrong. It doesn’t make you right
Nathan! This post proves 100% that I’m right on post 666 and that is, I that demand Scripturre proof and you give NONE. You dance around with what you think or what someone else wrote or said.

The Catholic Catechism is NOT Scripture. There’s not EVEN ONE SCRIPTURE mentioned on this entire posts. ED O>
 
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