"Catholics Reject John Chapter Three"

[Scriptorian]

Nowhere! Did Jesus ever say that “water” baptism forgives sins. You have to be misinterpreting what Peter ment 3:21 about Noah etc., but Jesus is the authority over Peter. Jesus very cleary states that His blood forgives sins and that comes about and is applied upon belief PERIOD. You have a hang up with “water, washing or sprinkle” that automatically means baptism to you.

I think you are confusing the symbols of Christ with Christ himself. Neither the blood of Christ nor the waters of baptism are literally going to forgive our sins. Only God can do that. These are both symbols of the sacrifice and triumph of Jesus Christ over sin and death.

We may be forgiven of our sins because Jesus Christ lived a spotless life, suffered the punishment for our sins, sacrificed himself, and rose on the third day to conquer death. Now Christ himself is our advocate with the Father to answer the ends of the law if we obey his commandments.

The blood of Christ (especially as a sacrament) is only a symbol of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Baptism is a symbol of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

Through both ordinances (when properly administered and worthily participated in) we may be forgiven of our sins.

 

[panevino]

Ed posted

…As you said Arron washed his hands in water prior to entering the Holly of Hollies room. To you that must means something holy rather than plain hygiene before aproaching God’s place…

Exo 30:20 When they go into the tabernacle of the congregation, they shall wash with water, that they die not; or when they come near to the altar to minister, to burn offering made by fire unto the LORD:

Sounds somewhat crucial to aarons role …

 

[EdOsiecki]

Posted by Scriptorian
I think you are confusing the symbols of Christ with Christ himself. Neither the blood of Christ nor the waters of baptism are literally going to forgive our sins. Only God can do that. These are both symbols of the sacrifice and triumph of Jesus Christ over sin and death.

We may be forgiven of our sins because Jesus Christ lived a spotless life, suffered the punishment for our sins, sacrificed himself, and rose on the third day to conquer death. Now Christ himself is our advocate with the Father to answer the ends of the law if we obey his commandments.

The blood of Christ (especially as a sacrament) is only a symbol of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Baptism is a symbol of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

Through both ordinances (when properly administered and worthily participated in) we may be forgiven of our sins

Hi Scriptorian, technically you are right! I believe what you state here. ED O.

 

[Scriptorian]

Hi Scriptorian, technically you are right! I believe what you state here. ED O.

Well, I am glad to help.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Posted by panevino
Ed posted
Exo 30:20 When they go into the tabernacle of the congregation, they shall wash with water, that they die not or when they come near to the altar to minister, to burn offering made by fire unto the LORD:
Hi Panevino, what in the world do you think is the purpose for the water here? There’s nothing holy about the water. The Title of that part of the chapter is: BASIN FOR WASHING ------- A kitchen sink in other words! v17 Then the Lord said to Moses, v18 “Make a bronze basin, with its bronze stand, for washing. Place it between the tent of Meeting and the altar, and put water in it. v19 Aaron and his sons are to wash their hands and feet with water from it. v20Whenever they enter the Tent of Meeting, they shall wash with water so that they will not die. Also, when they approach the altar to minister by presenting an offering made to the Lord by fire, v21 they shall wash their hands and feet so that they will not die. This is to be a lasting ordinance for Aaron and his descedants for the generations to come.”

These people are walking around in the desert their hands and feet get dirty. God wants them to clean up before entering His (God’s) Holy place. If they don’t listen He will kill them! Like He killed Aarons sons when they didn’t listen sometime later.------ But the water mentioned here has no other purpose other than to clean. It has nothing to do with baptism or Holy water! God told Moses to take his shoes off when he approached the mountain. You don’t approach God in an unworthy manner and dirty!

As I told you several times now everytime you see the words “water washing or sprinkle” you automtically connect it with baptism or holy water which is Nonsense! You have a water phobia.

Sounds somewhat crucial to aarons role

Sure it’s crucial. God told them to do it or die. When God tells us to do something you better do it. Look what happened to Jonah! Your making a big deal over a basin of water to wash in period. God Bless! ED O.

 

[panevino]

Hi Panevino, what in the world do you think is the purpose for the water here? There’s nothing holy about the water. The Title of that part of the chapter is: BASIN FOR WASHING ------- A kitchen sink in other words! v17 Then the Lord said to Moses, v18 “Make a bronze basin, with its bronze stand, for washing. Place it between the tent of Meeting and the altar, and put water in it. v19 Aaron and his sons are to wash their hands and feet with water from it. v20Whenever they enter the Tent of Meeting, they shall wash with water so that they will not die. Also, when they approach the altar to minister by presenting an offering made to the Lord by fire, v21 they shall wash their hands and feet so that they will not die. This is to be a lasting ordinance for Aaron and his descedants for the generations to come.”

These people are walking around in the desert their hands and feet get dirty. God wants them to clean up before entering His (God’s) Holy place. If they don’t listen He will kill them! Like He killed Aarons sons when they didn’t listen sometime later.------ But the water mentioned here has no other purpose other than to clean. It has nothing to do with baptism or Holy water! God told Moses to take his shoes off when he approached the mountain. You don’t approach God in an unworthy manner and dirty!

As I told you several times now everytime you see the words “water washing or sprinkle” you automtically connect it with baptism or holy water which is Nonsense! You have a water phobia.

Sure it’s crucial. God told them to do it or die. When God tells us to do something you better do it. Look what happened to Jonah! Your making a big deal over a basin of water to wash in period. God Bless! ED O.

Hey Ed. I am not saying that the water for Aaron is a sign of baptism. I am highlighting the link of water with blood , water being crucial here to what god instructs with the blood.
Like it is in ezek 36 (water and spirit) and when Jesus washes peters feet with water which was essential" or no part with me" water and spirit.

I am not trying to tell u that these are individual cases of baptism prefigured but the essential clear links of water/blood & water/spirit per John 3:5
and
1 John 5: 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

 

[krakee]

Hello Ed,

I was waiting for your followup but realize you have a lot of posts to address. We’ve established that you are not an infallible interpreter of Scripture and that you believe “only the Bible is infallible”.

I simply want to know how you know “only the Bible is infallible”. How would you explain this to someone who’s never heard of Christ or the Bible?

Ed it is NECESSARY to establish the same starting point otherwise it’s just a free for all and no one will hear each other.

So, Ed, how do you know “only the Bible is infallible”?

God Bless,

Matthew K (krakee)

 

[EdOsiecki]

Posted by krakee
Hello Ed,

I was waiting for your followup but realize you have a lot of posts to address. We’ve established that you are not an infallible interpreter of Scripture and that you believe “only the Bible is infallible”.

I simply want to know how you know “only the Bible is infallible”. How would you explain this to someone who’s never heard of Christ or the Bible?

The Bible is inspired by God.----- It says so-----! God doesn’t make any mistakes.------ If a person never heard of Christ or the Bible, that would be an excellent time to give a Bible to him/her to read and let the power of that Holy Book do its job!

Ed it is NECESSARY to establish the same starting point otherwise it’s just a free for all and no one will hear each other.

The starting point is the Bible ( the whole O.T. and the Scriptures, letters that were circulated during the apostle’s time) The Church came from the Scriptures and not the reverse. The Bible as we know it today came 300 years after the church was born.,

So, Ed, how do you know “only the Bible is infallible”?

God Bless,

Matthew K (krakee

Read what I just said above. ED O.

 

[EdOsiecki]

Posted by panevino
Hey Ed. I am not saying that the water for Aaron is a sign of baptism. I am highlighting the link of water with blood , water being crucial here to what god instructs with the blood.

That’s exactly your problem. You’re trying to link water with the Holy Spirit. Yet, the Holy Spirit does NOT come by Water. Many posts ago, I told you that the “born of water” per Jh 3:5 means a person’s physical birth and in v6 that’s why Jesus reiterates by saying Flesh gives birth to flesh but the Spirit gives birth to the spirit. He’s referring back to v5.------ I also gave you a list of Scriptures that the word “water” is a metaphor alluding to people, PS 144:7,Isa 8:6-7, Jer 47:2 and Rev 17:15 even says so in plain English, v15, “The waters that you saw,------are the people----.” That’s clear isn’t it. You then retored by asking, Why didn’t Jesus say born of flesh? My answer to that is because a body contains more than just flesh alone which by the way contains mostly water 80%.------Now in contrast, From where in the world do you get baptism from the word “water” It could mean lake, rivers etc.----- You never did show me precisely how do you arrive at baptism? As I have told you before, it’s because someone told you that it means baptism. My exegesis by far exceeds yours. It has meaning and relates to the rest of that chapter which yours doesn’t at all. ------Baptism just comes and pops-up out of nowhere!

Like it is in ezek 36 (water and spirit) and when Jesus washes peters feet with water which was essential" or no part with me" water and spirit.

First of all this hasn’t taken place yet, but there you go again, the word sprinkle is used.------ Did God sprinkle us with water?------ NO! ----- In that chapter “I will sprinkle CLEAN water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols” Does that mean baptism?---- NO!----- God is going to do the same to the Jews as He’s been doing to us (born again believers), taking the hearts of stone away and giving us/them a new heart (indwelling of God’s Spirit, something that Jews never experienced before, Their sins were forgiven by the blood of animals but they still had a guilty conscience. Hard hearts

I am not trying to tell u that these are individual cases of baptism prefigured but the essential clear links of water/blood & water/spirit per John 3:5
and

This is explained above. You are obsessed with linking! At times there are links, yet at other times, they’re not. You must get the true meaning by reading the entire chapter. In the Ezk 36 case the sprinkle is symbolic, no water will be used.

1 John 5: 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one

Here’s a good example.-----You explain this back to me by filling in the blanks. 1 John 8. "And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit---------------------------,and the water-------------------------, and the blood---------------------------agree in one. God Bless! ED O.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Hi Randy, your last sentence here, “grace is received by sacrament”, you have no Scripture to support for that statement.

Randy, when I say that I have faith in Jesus, do you think what I mean is: that I know He lived once upon a time or that He was a good teacher? NO! NO! NO! ----- When I or we have faith/belief in Jesus that means we believe the gospel of our salvation. At that moment of belief, we are saved, his blood has to be applied so that our sins are not only forgiven but atoned too, otherwise we could not be sealed by the Holy Spirit Eph 1:13,. In addition, we believe that He died and was buried and was resurrected and He is now our High Priest in heaven.----- That’s what it means to have faith/belief in Jesus. That’s exactly what took place with the centurion and his family. They got saved when Peter preached the gospel to them. -------Now do you understand what faith/belief in Jesus means.

I knew that before your little sermon, but thanks for the review.

I didn’t mis-spoke, as I just said above my faith in Jesus does it all in a moment of time.

It teaches the “water:” baptism forgives sins, which contradicts what Jesus said that is, His blood forgives sins. By the way what good does “water” baptism do that forgives sins when they are not atoned for? Zero! Zilch! Nothing! So according to your theology, you have to do two things in order to get saved. ( 1 ) “water” baptism to forgive sins ( 2 ) then believe in Jesus’ blood for atoment. But when you have faith and believe in Jesus it’s done all at once. We are Justified! Then the sanctifying process begins. We get “water” baptized to show our repentance which means we are leaving our past life and turning to God. When the Holy Spirit brings a sin that we have committed to mind we confess it to God. It continues until all of our sins are confessed over a period of time. That’s Bible theology.

You are exactly right. It’s applied individually by belief in Jesus. Didn’t God show us through the centurion’s episode that’s how it works? And Paul told the Jailer believe in Jesus. And John 1:13 & 3:16, Rom 10:9,10,13 many more. Your theology is backwards. One first gets “water” baptized then in some mystical way ( which has no Scripture support) Jesus somehow fits in with, blood atonement,Holy Spirit. Do as Scripture states. Jesus in Mark 16:16 “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved” Not whoever is baptized and believes will be saved.

That is not in the Bible. There’s no Scripture for it. Period! There’s only ONE baptism that we are baptized into Christ and it’s not “water” baptism. It’s the baptism in the Holy Spirit that both Jesus in Acts 1:5 and John in Mat 3:11. speak about.

No! only twice in John 20:22 which could be a question when you consider this John 14:17, “----- But you know Him (H.S.) for He lives WITH you, and will be IN you.” Jesus is speaking about Pentecost. Acts 2:4-----Also consider this: The Holy Spirit is a person that’s why we call the Holy Spirit He/Him. How many times can that Holy Spirit as a person be in you, except once?

There’s only ONE baptism that unifies us with Christ and it’s not “water” baptism.
The rite of confirmation is not in the Bible. The reason you have confirmation is because you claim that the Holy Spirit in some mystical way comes at “water” baptism which has no Scripture support.----- Your theology then has to do something about Acts 8:17 when the people received the Holy Spirit by the laying of hands so you call it confirmation. Which means you get the Holy Spirit twice. Once at “water” baptism and another at Confirmation!

You say you “think” -----But there’s only ONE power of the Holy Spirit mentioned in the Bible. Listen to Jesus in Acts1:8, “But you will receive POWER when the Holy Spirit comes on; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, etc.” God Bless! ED O.

Okay, Ed. Best wishes.

 

[panevino]

That’s exactly your problem. You’re trying to link water with the Holy Spirit. Yet, the Holy Spirit does NOT come by Water.

Jesus baptism hs descends , does not phase me that it was after. phillip baptised eunach in water in a Christian baptism, after declarationof belief in Jesus.

Many posts ago, I told you that the “born of water” per Jh 3:5 means a person’s physical birth and in v6 that’s why Jesus reiterates by saying Flesh gives birth to flesh but the Spirit gives birth to the spirit. He’s referring back to v5.------

my interpretation re v6 that u acknowledged is possible. Is far more convincing to me. Ie Matt 26:41, mark 14:38, John 6:63anf allows water inv5 to be read as literal water

I also gave you a list of Scriptures that the word “water” is a metaphor alluding to people, PS 144:7,Isa 8:6-7, Jer 47:2 and Rev 17:15 even says so in plain English, v15, “The waters that you saw,------are the people----.” That’s clear isn’t it. You then retored by asking, Why didn’t Jesus say born of flesh? My answer to that is because a body contains more than just flesh alone which by the way contains mostly water 80%.------Now in contrast, From where in the world do you get baptism from the word “water” It could mean lake, rivers etc.----- You never did show me precisely how do you arrive at baptism?

um Johns baptism, phillip baptizing eunach in river after belief in Jesus and it is called baptism, peters association of noahs water with new baptism ( why did he mention water in that verse?, why did he bother saying saved by water), Jesus being baptised in water and new thing happens, HS.

As I have told you before, it’s because someone told you that it means baptism. My exegesis by far exceeds yours. It has meaning and relates to the rest of that chapter which yours doesn’t at all. -

respectfully disagree.
Buried and rise in water to new life in body and heart in imitation of death resurection of Christ with any power only made available by our faith and aboveall what Jesus did.

-----Baptism just comes and pops-up out of nowhere!

Re Ez 36 u wrote

First of all this hasn’t taken place yet, but there you go again, the word sprinkle is used.------ Did God sprinkle us with water?------ NO! ----- In that chapter “I will sprinkle CLEAN water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols” Does that mean baptism?---- NO!----- God is going to do the same to the Jews as He’s been doing to us (born again believers), taking the hearts of stone away and giving us/them a new heart (indwelling of God’s Spirit, something that Jews never experienced before, Their sins were forgiven by the blood of animals but they still had a guilty conscience. Hard hearts

so now water = HS ( in v27 he says he will put his spirit in us)
not “people” per John 3:5
what is water in ISA 44: 3 For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:…
is it HS or people…
I don’t mind if this has happened yet, it is an example of spirit acting in some way with water.

 

[Michael_Francis]

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