Catholics, Schismatics, Heretics :: Rock, Earth, Shore/Sea

[spauline]

Catholics have the rock, which is Peter. Therefore, when the worst rains come, if they are faithful to the Church, and hence to Peter, their house will stand, for Peter is the immovable rock of truth, said Our Lord to him.

Schismatics don’t have the rock, because they have not Peter. But they have a good foundation, which is the general fathers. Peter is the supreme earthly father, but he is of course not the only father. For how can Peter govern all the world by himself. He needs helpers. So then, all the Apostles and their Successors are Fathers. In this way, schismatics then truly have fathers, and this is a good foundation, for where the fathers are, so also is the Tradition, that gives the proper meaning of Scripture. For this reason, schismatics still have a pretty good foundation. But since they don’t Peter, who is the rock, their foundation is more like the earth, pretty good, quite stable. So then, they will be not be tossed to and fro, because they have Tradition. Tradition provides the general foundation of what the Writings mean, so then, they will not falter that much. They are not immovable, like a rock, and so they may falter a little, but certainly not like the sea, where there is chaos.

But heretics do not have the fathers, they only have the Writings. And so they are at best on the shore of the sea. For, the Writings, when taken aside and away from the Fathers, are difficult to understand, when one does not look to the fathers for the meaning. And so, as it is written in the New Covenant, the heretics shall be tossed to and fro by every wave of doctrine, for they are attempting to understand a Revelation that is incomplete, that is, the Writings by themselves, without the guidance of the Fathers.

And this is the modern world of heretics, a vast ocean of competing factions, being tossed to and fro, by every wave of doctrine.

And is it merely a coincidence that Christ fed one group of persons with seven loaves and a few fish, and another with five loaves and two fish?

For loaves require the earth, you cannot acquire loaves from the sea. Which is to say, without the fathers that are surer foundation, you can only fish. And, as we saw, there were only two fish, in as much as heretics can have at most two sacraments, Baptism and Marriage.

but as for schismatics, they have all seven loaves, because they have the earth. But because they have not Peter, they might have to fish a little bit, falter that is, because the earth is not quite as stable as the Rock.

 

[Mirdath]

And the apostates have the beer!

The metaphor isn’t bad to start with but it’s kind of a stretch (stretching more toward the end), and the place of Peter both as part of the earth and as something to fish for just plain doesn’t work. Also your two separate loaves-and-fish incidents are, if I remember rightly, the same one reported in different gospels.

 

[spauline]

And the apostates have the beer!

The metaphor isn’t bad to start with but it’s kind of a stretch (stretching more toward the end), and the place of Peter both as part of the earth and as something to fish for just plain doesn’t work. Also your two separate loaves-and-fish incidents are, if I remember rightly, the same one reported in different gospels.

well, there are 4 stories, one in each Gospel, in which Christ feeds 5,000 with five loaves and two fish.

In two Gospels only, there are is a similar story in which Christ feeds 4,000 people with seven loaves and a few fish.

on that note, and I have posted this before, it is interesting that in Church history, there are only 5 Apostolic Sees, or which 4 broke off in the Schism, leaving Peter behind by himself, and yet he is the soveriegn, similar to how the 10 tribes of the North were those that broke away in the OT, leaving 2 behind in Judah, but Judah possesses the ultimate kingship.

so then, that the seven loave story is to 4,000 is strangely appropriate, for it was the 4 Apostolic sees that separated via Schism, and that schismatics have all seven loaves; and that, in the case of 5,000, though Peter, being only 1, is left alone, because he is the supreme father, he possesses the fullness of Apostolicity (the Witness of all 5 Sees, the Whole Apostles) nonetheless, and that within this fuller Kingdom of the West, the primary separation WAS rather heresy, where they have only two fish, just as the 5,000 were fed five loaves and two fish.

I think knowledgeable Catholics would not contest the analogy as much as you, for you are an agnostic.

for really, the analogies are highly appropriate in Catholic theology > Christ said, man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. Which is to say, the first form of feeding the flock is to teach them the truth. And the truth has sources, first Peter (the rock, the surest source), then the other fathers (the earth, 1 Tim. 3:15 [Church is pillar and GROUND of the truth]), then the Scriptures (a lesser foundation without the fathers, and so like the sand, or worse, the sea of confusing doctrine).

And once one has truth, one still must be fed in the order of the will, that is, life, grace. And where do we get grace? The Greatest sources of grace in the Catholic religion, and in Orthodoxy also, are the Sacraments. The Sacraments make up, as it were, a whole quarter of the CCC itself, so central are they to the Christian mystery.

And were that not enough, the Sacraments are also, by way of doctrine, intimately connected to the question of Christian unity, which is precisely defined in Catholicism by the two primary forms: schism and heresy. Hence, that such associations appear in the Scriptures, with such amazing correlation that perfectly fits what the Church now knows, I begin to think, is it really a coincidence?

So then, these analogies are right on, from a Catholic view, at least, imho.