Catholics see the Son in the Eucharist

[VociMike]

CA member Philthy pointed this out in another thread, and frankly I’m fascinated by it. In John 6:40, Christ says “For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Now in the Catholic (and Orthodox) Eucharist, we do indeed see the Son. But in the symbolic-only Eucharist, one does not see the Son but only bread and wine/juice. Further, “who sees the Son” must be meant literally, just as believing in him must be literal. It cannot refer to somehow symbolically seeing the Son any more than “believes in him” can refer to symbolically believing in Christ. And since this requirement to see the Son comes in the discourse on the bread of life, it must be related to the Eucharist.

So what is the Protestant answer to this requirement that one is to see the Son?

 

[Randy_Carson]

CA member Philthy pointed this out in another thread, and frankly I’m fascinated by it. In John 6:40, Christ says “For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Now in the Catholic (and Orthodox) Eucharist, we do indeed see the Son. But in the symbolic-only Eucharist, one does not see the Son but only bread and wine/juice. Further, “who sees the Son” must be meant literally, just as believing in him must be literal. It cannot refer to somehow symbolically seeing the Son any more than “believes in him” can refer to symbolically believing in Christ. And since this requirement to see the Son comes in the discourse on the bread of life, it must be related to the Eucharist.

So what is the Protestant answer to this requirement that one is to see the Son?

Good points! I had never considered this before, and here’s why:

I’m primarily an NIV guy (convert remember?). Here’s the NIV translation of that passage:

“For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

“Looks to” is a far cry from “sees”. I can “look to” the US Military for defense of the country, the local police for protection from burglars, the insurance company for protection from property loss, etc. Yet, I may never “see” any of them in action.

This appears to be another example of the flaws of the NIV.

 

[VociMike]

Well I’m certainly not a Greek scholar, but in looking up the passage in a few online Greek interlinear bibles they all translate the text as “to see” or “to behold”, and not “to look to”.

 

[Truthstalker]

Let me point out:

1. You don’t see the Son: you see the accidents. The substance is hidden. We walk by faith not by sight.
2. There is no one Protestant positon on what happens in Communion.
3. I “see” the Son, recognizing His Body and Blood in the Communion elements, in my Presbyterian Church. He said it, therefore I believe it.
4. We see the Son in places besides the Eucharist. You limit yourself by focusing on it exclusively. God declares His glory throughout creation; we are to recognize, or see it. We will see Him when He returns; many saw Him while He walked on earth and after He was raised from the dead.

 

[VociMike]

Let me point out:

1. You don’t see the Son: you see the accidents. The substance is hidden. We walk by faith not by sight.

By that logic, we don’t eat the Son, we only eat the accidents. I simply can’t agree.

 

[runandsew]

The Greek word is theoreo

1. to be a spectator, look at, behold
   a) to view attentively, take a view of, survey
2. to view mentally, consider
3. to see
   a) to perceive with the eyes, to enjoy the presence of one
   b) to discern, descry
   c) to ascertain, find out by seeing

KJV - Jhn 6:40 - And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
King James Version 1611, 1769

NKJV - Jhn 6:40 - “And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
New King James Version © 1982 Thomas Nelson

NLT - Jhn 6:40 - For it is my Father’s will that all who see his Son and believe in him should have eternal life-that I should raise them at the last day."
New Living Translation © 1996 Tyndale Charitable Trust

NIV - Jhn 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who **looks to the Son **and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”
New International Version © 1973, 1978, 1984 International Bible Society

ESV - Jhn 6:40 - “For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who **looks on the Son **and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
The Holy Bible, English Standard Version © 2001 Crossway Bibles

NASB - Jhn 6:40 - “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who **beholds the Son **and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman Foundation

NAB - Jhn 6-40 - For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who **sees the Son **and believes in him may have eternal life, and I shall raise him (on) the last day."

RSV - Jhn 6:40 - For this is the will of my Father, that every one who **sees the Son **and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
Revised Standard Version © 1947, 1952.

ASV - Jhn 6:40 - For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
American Standard Version 1901 Info

Young - Jhn 6:40 - and this is the will of Him who sent me, that every one who is beholding the Son, and is believing in him, may have life age-during, and I will raise him up in the last day.’
Robert Young Literal Translation 1862, 1887, 1898 Info

Darby - Jhn 6:40 - For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son, and believes on him, should have life eternal; and I will raise him up at the last day.
J.N.Darby Translation 1890 Info

Webster - Jhn 6:40 - And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one who seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Noah Webster Version 1833 Info

HNV - Jhn 6:40 - This is the will of the one who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son, and believes in him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
Hebrew Names Version 2000 Info

 

[Fergal]

Many times throughout the Gospel Jesus spoke to his Disciples about blind hearts.

Jesus also said to Thomas happy are those who have not seen yet believe.

Therefore it is not necessary to see with the eyes. It is necessary to see through the veils of mysteries of our Faith with the Heart, and to believe in what our ears receive when they hear the words “This is My Body”.

If we use only our eyes to try and see then the prophecy of Isaias is fulfilled. This prophecy states: By hearing you shall hear, and shall not understand: and seeing you shall see, and shall not perceive. For the heart of this people is grown gross, and with their ears they have been dull of hearing, and their eyes they have shut: lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Looking involves the eyes. Seeing involves much more than the eyes. Remember what the Lord was asked when He spoke about good works: ***Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? ******38 And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? 39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? 40 And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me. ***

 

[BrianH]

CA member Philthy pointed this out in another thread, and frankly I’m fascinated by it. In John 6:40, Christ says “For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Now in the Catholic (and Orthodox) Eucharist, we do indeed see the Son. But in the symbolic-only Eucharist, one does not see the Son but only bread and wine/juice. Further, “who sees the Son” must be meant literally, just as believing in him must be literal. It cannot refer to somehow symbolically seeing the Son any more than “believes in him” can refer to symbolically believing in Christ. And since this requirement to see the Son comes in the discourse on the bread of life, it must be related to the Eucharist.

So what is the Protestant answer to this requirement that one is to see the Son?

Many Protestants do not think John 6 is referring to the Eucharist

 

[Randy_Carson]

Many Protestants do not think John 6 is referring to the Eucharist

Neither did the Jews who abandoned Jesus that day and no longer followed him because of this “hard teaching”.

 

[VociMike]

Many Protestants do not think John 6 is referring to the Eucharist

OK, but when do they believe that they actually, really see the Son, just as literally as they believe in Him? For Christ says that one must do both.

 

[runandsew]

Many Protestants do not think John 6 is referring to the Eucharist

That is quite apparent in some of the threads I have seen.

In the three synoptic Gospels they have the last supper described, but John doesn’t, also in the three synoptic Gospels they have the “mini-apocalypse” told, but John doesn’t.

While the three synoptic Gospels give the literal story of the life of Jesus, John gives us a deeper theological filled writing on the life of Jesus.

Instead of describing the last supper, John gives the deeper meaning of the words: “this is my body” and “this is my blood” in his bread of life discourse in chapter 6
.
Likewise instead of the short summary of the end of time, John wrote a whole book on it, to give the deeper meaning of this event in the book of Revelation.

I think that there are some Protestants, and even Catholics that don’t make this connection.

 

[BrianH]

They walked away after his explaination:

61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

 

[Randy_Carson]

They walked away after his explaination:

So, what was the hard teaching?

 

[dbacks5439]

Some protestants will see the hard teaching had to do with Jesus claiming to come from Heaven, and not with Him saying that He is the bread of life. A counter-argument is that why is it that the Jews grumbled about Him talking about being the bread of life AND coming from Heaven. This is another example of an “either/or” statement from protestants. We can see here that it is an “and/both” statement. You would have to believe that Jesus is the bread of life and came from Heaven. The Jews grumbled against both.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Some protestants will see the hard teaching had to do with Jesus claiming to come from Heaven, and not with Him saying that He is the bread of life. A counter-argument is that why is it that the Jews grumbled about Him talking about being the bread of life AND coming from Heaven. This is another example of an “either/or” statement from protestants. We can see here that it is an “and/both” statement. You would have to believe that Jesus is the bread of life and came from Heaven. The Jews grumbled against both.

Perhaps. In context, we read:
Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
“Sir,” they said, “from now on give us this bread.”
No grumbling after Jesus said, “the Bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

At this point, they were still eager to have this bread.

 

[BrianH]

So, what was the hard teaching?

Ok.

When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, "

Does this offend you?

62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?

That he had a preexistant nature and was not merely a man.

63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing.

That the formerly special and exclusive place, receiving the mana, does not matter because it is only through the Holy Spirit that we will have life. I believe this verse foreshadows the Holy Spirit.

The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

The only way to come to the Father is through Christ. It is really an accumulation of hard sayings Randy. If they had left after he was talking about eating his flesh you would have a point, but they do not.
The jist of the whole thing is that eternal life comes through Christ. No doubt they took him literal at first, it is not the first time people had left Christ confused.

 

[dbacks5439]

The jist of the whole thing is that eternal life comes through Christ. No doubt they took him literal at first, it is not the first time people had left Christ confused.

So why didn’t Jesus try to explain it better?

 

[water]

No doubt they took him literal at first, it is not the first time people had left Christ confused.

I see it differently - we see His Saying literally and we have no doubt that and and not disgusted by It. We believe every Word He said about the Eucharist, and our souls are well fed.

 

[kaycee]

OK, but when do they believe that they actually, really see the Son, just as literally as they believe in Him? For Christ says that one must do both.

Guess those who cant physically see anything are excluded from heaven!

 

[VociMike]

Guess those who cant physically see anything are excluded from heaven!

No more than those (the very young, the mentally incapable) who cannot believe. Now, back to the question - how do those who do not have the Real Presence in the Eucharist ever see the Son?