Catholics supporting Illegals

[b_ulmen]

this article reports how a local catholic church is providing humanitarian aid to illegal immigrants:
svherald.com/articles/2008/12/17/news/doc4948943c054a4552104129.txt

My primary concern is the priest not calling ICE or Border Patrol after, or during the humanitarian aid giving. Its our duty as Catholic Christians to aid the needy, but it also our duty as citizens of the United States of America to report violations of our laws.

I am also concerned about having potential carriers fo infectious disease in close proximity to children.

query this forums comments.

 

[T700]

I would like that the priests leave the police work to the police. Please remember that the vast majority of “illegals” are no threat to you or your family. They have names. They have mothers. They are someone’s son or daughter. Show them the mercy that Christ showed us.

In a perfect world, there would be no illegal workers, but until that time, I hope everyone remembers Deuteronomy 10:17-19 (NRSV) *For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who is not partial and takes no bribe, who executes justice for the orphan and the widow, and who loves the strangers, providing them food and clothing. You shall also love the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt. *

Paul

ps. I really hesitated posting to this thread. I predict a firestorm that lasts at least five pages.

 

[b_ulmen]

I would like that the priests leave the police work to the police. Please remember that the vast majority of “illegals” are no threat to you or your family. They have names. They have mothers. They are someone’s son or daughter. Show them the mercy that Christ showed us.

In a perfect world, there would be no illegal workers, but until that time, I hope everyone remembers Deuteronomy 10:17-19 (NRSV) *For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who is not partial and takes no bribe, who executes justice for the orphan and the widow, and who loves the strangers, providing them food and clothing. You shall also love the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt. *

Paul

ps. I really hesitated posting to this thread. I predict a firestorm that lasts at least five pages.

So you don’t think the priest has an obligation to report the illegals to BP or ICE? Just continue to feed them and send them on thier way? I’m not trying to pick an argument with you, just trying to understand the reasoning.

 

[T700]

So you don’t think the priest has an obligation to report the illegals to BP or ICE? Just continue to feed them and send them on thier way? I’m not trying to pick an argument with you, just trying to understand the reasoning.

Very few of the people are going to say to the priest, “Hello father, my immigration status is that of an illegal worker.” I’m sure the priest can make a good guess, much of the time, but is that really his job? Or should it be to give them the love and the care that Jesus showed people?

Even in those cases where he was certain their status is irregular, I don’t know if he has an obligation to call the authorities. My gut instinct is no, but I am open to anyone who can correct me with documented teachings from the Church.

Paul

 

[JReducation]

this article reports how a local catholic church is providing humanitarian aid to illegal immigrants:
svherald.com/articles/2008/12/17/news/doc4948943c054a4552104129.txt

My primary concern is the priest not calling ICE or Border Patrol after, or during the humanitarian aid giving. Its our duty as Catholic Christians to aid the needy, but it also our duty as citizens of the United States of America to report violations of our laws.

I am also concerned about having potential carriers fo infectious disease in close proximity to children.

query this forums comments.

It is the Catholic’s vocation to serve the poor, the weak and the immigrant. We do not promote violation of the law, but we do not support the system when it treats people inhumanely.

A priest or a religious has an ogligation to obey his bishop, his major religious superior or his religious order over obedience to the State. In fact, if you belong to a religious order, obedience to the State ranks very low after the Holy See, the founder, the Rule and Constitutions, the General Chapter of the Order, the Major Superor, the local superior and the local bishop.

When any of these order priests and religious not to cooperate with immigation authorities to get illegal immigrants deported, there is nothing for the individual to do but to obey.

If you disagree and you are a member of a religious community, you must exercise what the Church calls a loving obedience. You may only disobey in matters that are dangerous to your soul or against justice.

Here is where it gets tricky. When a priest or religious uses justice as an excuse to disobey, the bishop or the religious superior must agree that the action is truly a question of justice. Their authority outweighs the individual’s judgment by virtue of rank and obedience.

Most bishops, religious chapters and religious superiors in the USA have ordered their clergy and religious not to cooprate with immigation officials until the system treats the immirgants more humanely, except when there is proof that the person is a threat. Then the local police is to be called, not the INS. Obviously, the local police will arrive more quickly.

It’s tricky when you have law and obedience in confict.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[LIZA3213]

I have a relative (a US citizen) who married an illegal alien. The marriage only lasted a few months.

When she told him she wanted a divorce he said okay and as he was leaving he grabbed an envelope with bank account info (her name was not on any of the accounts, obviously) and her American born children’s birth certificates.

They argued over the envelope and as he was leaving she pulled his jacket and when he turned to try to get away from her she was shoved against the door.

She called the police and filed a domestic abuse report.

My relative has been told by two (2) different lawyers that if an illegal immigrant files a domestic abuse charge within 3 years of the marriage they are granted citizenship. Are there any lawyers out there who can confirm this?

i can’t imagine it is that simple but as the saying goes –

ONLY IN AMERICA!!!

 

[JReducation]

I have a relative (a US citizen) who married an illegal alien. The marriage only lasted a few months.

When she told him she wanted a divorce he said okay and as he was leaving he grabbed an envelope with bank account info (her name was not on any of the accounts, obviously) and her American born children’s birth certificates.

They argued over the envelope and as he was leaving she pulled his jacket and when he turned to try to get away from her she was shoved against the door.

She called the police and filed a domestic abuse report.

My relative has been told by two (2) different lawyers that if an illegal immigrant files a domestic abuse charge within 3 years of the marriage they are granted citizenship. Are there any lawyers out there who can confirm this?

i can’t imagine it is that simple but as the saying goes –

ONLY IN AMERICA!!!

Sounds weired. But I’m not a lawyer.

 

[T700]

I have a relative (a US citizen) who married an illegal alien. The marriage only lasted a few months.

When she told him she wanted a divorce he said okay and as he was leaving he grabbed an envelope with bank account info (her name was not on any of the accounts, obviously) and her American born children’s birth certificates.

They argued over the envelope and as he was leaving she pulled his jacket and when he turned to try to get away from her she was shoved against the door.

She called the police and filed a domestic abuse report.

My relative has been told by two (2) different lawyers that if an illegal immigrant files a domestic abuse charge within 3 years of the marriage they are granted citizenship. Are there any lawyers out there who can confirm this?

i can’t imagine it is that simple but as the saying goes –

ONLY IN AMERICA!!!

I am not a lawyer, but as the spouse of a legal immigrant, I can tell you from long and extensive contact with the US immigration system, that is absolutely, positively, not true. Being granted permanent residence (aka, a green card), is a long, difficult, expensive process, to say nothing of citizenship.

If an illegal immigrant is involved in a police matter, they may be granted the ability to stay until it is resolved, but even that is not a given. This degree of laxity is provided to prevent undocumented people from being preyed on by criminals or abusers because they (the undocumented) would be afraid to go to the police for help.

Here’s a link to an article with some details. Basically, the only benefit the person gets is to be able to file a petition without having the abuser as a sponsor. They are still subject to the usual process.

Paul

 

[maggiemay2u]

I am not a lawyer, but as the spouse of a legal immigrant, I can tell you from long and extensive contact with the US immigration system, that is absolutely, positively, not true. Being granted permanent residence (aka, a green card), is a long, difficult, expensive process, to say nothing of citizenship.

If an illegal immigrant is involved in a police matter, they may be granted the ability to stay until it is resolved, but even that is not a given. This degree of laxity is provided to prevent undocumented people from being preyed on by criminals or abusers because they (the undocumented) would be afraid to go to the police for help.

Here’s a link to an article with some details. Basically, the only benefit the person gets is to be able to file a petition without having the abuser as a sponsor. They are still subject to the usual process.

Paul

I take issue with the assertion that illegals involved in police matters are allowed to stay only until the matter is resolved. One only has to look at the headlines and read the articles about an illegal alien wiping out a few people here and there to know it is lacking factually. California and Massachusetts had arrested Illegal aliens for assault, theft or weapons and let them go. Once out, the illegal aliens killed entirely innocent citizens for virtually no reason. Saying only a relatively small number of aliens commit crimes is of little solace to the widows, children and parents of the victims. San Francisco is notorious for releasing its criminals, here illegally, out to rob, batter, rape or kill.

Back to the topic. The Catholic Church would be more of service to the poor of Mexico if they sent money and volunteers to build infrastructure, businesses and houses here, instead of putting up 150 million dollar edifices to some bishop. I contribute to such an enterprise in Mexico and elsewhere. It is much more cost effective, humane, and ultimately more Christian than the sinking life boat system we have now.

 

[Chancellare]

this article reports how a local catholic church is providing humanitarian aid to illegal immigrants:
svherald.com/articles/2008/12/17/news/doc4948943c054a4552104129.txt

My primary concern is the priest not calling ICE or Border Patrol after, or during the humanitarian aid giving. Its our duty as Catholic Christians to aid the needy, but it also our duty as citizens of the United States of America to report violations of our laws.

I am also concerned about having potential carriers fo infectious disease in close proximity to children.

query this forums comments.

Illegal immigration is a statutory issue while giving humanitarian aid is a moral issue. One should not mix the two. Either you serve God or Mammon.
Evading the Gestapo in occupied Italy during WWII was an illegal act at that time. Why is no one complaining that Vatican did not report the escaping Jews to the Nazi?

 

[JReducation]

Illegal immigration is a statutory issue while giving humanitarian aid is a moral issue. One should not mix the two. Either you serve God or Mammon.
Evading the Gestapo in occupied Italy during WWII was an illegal act at that time. Why is no one complaining that Vatican did not report the escaping Jews to the Nazi?

It is not the job of the clergy, religious and secular orders to implement the laws of the State. The role of clergy and consecrated people is to serve Jesus Christ, especially when he approaches us in the disguise of the poor as Mother Teresa would say.

The State has rights. There is no question about this. But the state must exercise those rights within the moral law. If the clergy or consecrated Christians find that the arm of the State is inhumane, they have a moral right not to cooperate with the State.

Citizens have a right to be protected, but we must also demand that the State protect us using methods and laws that are consistent with moral law. Because it is our protection, we cannot allow the State to act without restraints.

This can be a risky proposal, but if we are truly Catholic, we have to be willing to take the risks and demand that the State do things the moral way. Thus far, our bishops have told us that the State’s treatment of illegal immigrants is inhumane and the Church cannot authorize cooperation.

But the problem is not cooperating with enforcing the law, but with HOW the law is enforced. In our legal system this can be a very valid argument. We grant parole to murderers who should stay in prison for life. Why can’t we keep immigrant families together and protect the family unit? That’s one of the issues that the Church has with the system. There are seveal issues like that, where there is inconsistency in the legal system.

I’m not an expert on these things. I’m just sharing my thoghts here. Based on what our bishops and religious superiors tell us.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[Chancellare]

It is not the job of the clergy, religious and secular orders to implement the laws of the State. The role of clergy and consecrated people is to serve Jesus Christ, especially when he approaches us in the disguise of the poor as Mother Teresa would say.

The State has rights. There is no question about this. But the state must exercise those rights within the moral law. If the clergy or consecrated Christians find that the arm of the State is inhumane, they have a moral right not to cooperate with the State.

Citizens have a right to be protected, but we must also demand that the State protect us using methods and laws that are consistent with moral law. Because it is our protection, we cannot allow the State to act without restraints.

This can be a risky proposal, but if we are truly Catholic, we have to be willing to take the risks and demand that the State do things the moral way. Thus far, our bishops have told us that the State’s treatment of illegal immigrants is inhumane and the Church cannot authorize cooperation.

But the problem is not cooperating with enforcing the law, but with HOW the law is enforced. In our legal system this can be a very valid argument. We grant parole to murderers who should stay in prison for life. Why can’t we keep immigrant families together and protect the family unit? That’s one of the issues that the Church has with the system. There are seveal issues like that, where there is inconsistency in the legal system.

I’m not an expert on these things. I’m just sharing my thoghts here. Based on what our bishops and religious superiors tell us.

Fraternally,

JR

Dear JR,
I agree with your postulates 100%.
However, there is also such thing as ‘double effect’. In the face of 2 evils, we are called upon to do the lesser evil.

 

[JReducation]

Dear JR,
I agree with your postulates 100%.
However, there is also such thing as ‘double effect’. In the face of 2 evils, we are called upon to do the lesser evil.

This is also very true.

JR

 

[Bullfighter]

this article reports how a local catholic church is providing humanitarian aid to illegal immigrants:
svherald.com/articles/2008/12/17/news/doc4948943c054a4552104129.txt

My primary concern is the priest not calling ICE or Border Patrol after, or during the humanitarian aid giving. Its our duty as Catholic Christians to aid the needy, but it also our duty as citizens of the United States of America to report violations of our laws.

I am also concerned about having potential carriers fo infectious disease in close proximity to children.

query this forums comments.

My problem is when they root themselves into the system, they being to force whole towns to obey the will of the invader. My town is now 80% hispanic and I just ran across this resolution that my town passed last month. The website of a group that received funds from the Catholic Campaign for Human Development (Interfaith Leadership Project) has this on the website under “accomplishments”. The organization is a front for helping the groups invading the US.

I checked our towns website and I can find only a brief reference to the resolution being passed last month but it didn’t go in to details about the laws. Like they didn’t want anyone other than the foreigners to know about this.

Here it is:

Cicero** Safe Space Resolution**
On November 12, 2008, President Dominick and the Cicero Town Council enacted the Safe Space Resolution for Cicero. The resolution developed from the efforts of the Interfaith Leadership Project and the Latino Union of Chicago to increase protections and counter the fear rippling through immigrant communities.The main provisions of the resolution state:

• City agents shall not enforce federal immigration laws.
• No City agents, including Police, shall use monies, resources, or staff to detect or apprehend people for civil immigration violations.
• Cicero will not lend space, vehicles, or resources to federal immigration agents for enforcement of federal immigration laws.
• City agents will not identify individuals for legal scrutiny based on their country of origin, religion, ethnicity or immigration status.
• No Town of Cicero employee will inquire into the citizenship, residency, or immigration status of any person.
• Information about an individual’s residency status shall not be maintained or recorded, except as required by law.
• No city services or public safety services will be denied on the basis of citizenship, except as required by federal or state law.
• The presentation of a foreign passport or matricula consular will be accepted as proof of identity.
• Complaints of violation of this resolution will be investigated by the Cicero Police Office of Internal Affairs and/or the Inspector General.
• The Town of Cicero will meet annually with the Interfaith Leadership Project and the Latino Union of Chicago to discuss complaints filed and actions taken by the Town to investigate and address the complaints.
  If you want further information or have a concern, please contact the Interfaith Leadership Project at 708-652-7711.

That effectively protects the invading “immigrant” within the town limits. It is interesting to note that this town receives tremendous amounts of federal aid and the town has used part of that aid to build a huge town complex among other things.

The schools also receive most of their funding (74.5%) from the US taxpayer and not from local taxes.

Here is the website of the organization in question:

interfaithleadership.net/accomplishments.html

Here is the website to show you the CCHD 2008 report that lists that organization:

archchicago.org/departments/peace_and_justice/pdf/cchd/2008/CCHD_AnnualReport_2008.pdf

If this doesn’t stop, we won’t have an American legal system and American justice will just be a memory for senoir citizens.

 

[Bullfighter]

this article reports how a local catholic church is providing humanitarian aid to illegal immigrants:
svherald.com/articles/2008/12/17/news/doc4948943c054a4552104129.txt

My primary concern is the priest not calling ICE or Border Patrol after, or during the humanitarian aid giving. Its our duty as Catholic Christians to aid the needy, but it also our duty as citizens of the United States of America to report violations of our laws.

I am also concerned about having potential carriers fo infectious disease in close proximity to children.

query this forums comments.

Here’s an example of the Church being an accessory to the US invasion by “immigrants”.

pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/episodes/may-9-2008/eagle-pass-border-wall/69/

Here’s an example of the our Catholic Church being used to protect illegals. One of the poor unfortunates said he has been here for 15 years, has a home, his own business and a family. But the amasing thing was that during that 15 year period, he never learned a word of English. The interview was conducted through an interpreter.

Now if you have your own business, how do you talk to customers? Unless they all speak Spanish. And if he can do that for 15 years, why would any immigrant need to learn English except to con the American people that they will blend in to OUR society.

Here’s the story:

pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week1042/feature.html

 

[redhen]

Interview excerpt from the PBS article talking about a statue;

“Father LOIACONO: I gave it the name **The Undocumented Christ **because we don’t know where this Christ figure came from, and so it’s undocumented. But it also came wet, because it came in the river. It came homeless to us, and to me it’s Christ identifying as undocumented.”

Wow, I think I’ve heard everything now.

I guess I’m just a sucker, waiting for years for a green card. I should have stayed in Arizona after my work visa expired and went to a safe haven town, instead of freezing back in Canada. Oh wait, maybe that’s why that wouldn’t be feasible, I don’t speak Spanish and I’m not Latino.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

the groups invading the US.

The U.S. has been invading other countries for centuries. Did you know that there isn’t a single country in the Western Hemisphere that the U.S. hasn’t invaded at least once?

Even our presence on this continent is the result of an invasion, the French invaded the north, the English and Dutch invaded the east, the Spanish and Portugese invaded the south and the asians invaded the west by way of the Bering Straits.

Yesterday we celebrated the Feast of the Holy Family, who by the way probably qualify as illegal aliens since they invaded Egypt.

The United States has merely 5% of the world’s population, but we use 30% of the world’s natural resources and we create 30% of the world’s waste and 99% of the “goods” we buy end up in the trash after a mere 6 months. But we have the bald faced nerve to say to people coming here hoping and praying for a better life that they can’t because we don’t have room, because they cost us too much, because they effect our economy badly? What is wrong with this picture?

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Oh wait, maybe that’s why that wouldn’t be feasible, I don’t speak Spanish and I’m not Latino.

That comment is nothing less than racist. You might want to check your statistics on numbers of undocumented aliens by origin, I think you would be surprised.

 

[redhen]

That comment is nothing less than racist. You might want to check your statistics on numbers of undocumented aliens by origin, I think you would be surprised.

You’re the one making that claim, the onus is on you to provide the supporting numbers.

 

[b_ulmen]

so, if I read the replies correctly, catholics are under no obligation, moral or civic, to support the laws of this country, America is bad because we are invaders, and those supporting the illegal invasions are morally equivalent to those helping Jews and christians escaping real death sentences in nazi germany. It’s no wonder the Catholic church garners so much animosity.

there is room for compromise on this issue if we take a deeper intellectual and realistic approach. but I seem to be on the minority end of this argument.