Catholics that don't believe in miracles?

[misstherese]

I know you didn’t reply to me but I feel I should give this a response

Mass hysteria is a powerful thing. If God worked a specific miracle then why

Hysteria doesn’t explain their clothes becoming completely dry within seconds after it had rained.

Again you have no problem dismissing other religions followers who are sure they saw great miracles?

Of course other religions have miracles too. Maybe the miracles in other religions happen and maybe they don’t. (even Catholics have their fair share of false seers). Of course the devils can make things seems as though they come from God too in order to cause confusion. It isn’t this religions vs. this religion. It’s more of, “which religion’s teachings are creating good people amidst the evils of the world?” And, “are these miracles a sign of truth?”
That’s when I’d take a look at the Catholic saints and agree that the Catholic Church’s teachings, when taken to heart, can change people and make them good. And their whole lives are miraculous.

 

[Eddie18]

The testimonials include those from people miles away from where the miracle took place. It was seen for something like 200 mi.² That rules out mass hysteria.

You will also notice that in many of the testimonials in the book, they all agreed that they know of no one that claimed they didn’t see anything . There are no testimonials from people who were there that said they were nothing happened.

And what are your thoughts on the 3 children predicting the miracle to the exact place and time?

 

[Eddie18]

Good point on the clothes drying immediately.

And just to clarify, God can obviously perform miracles anywhere with anyone, though historically God has reserved the major miracles (evident to the senses) to the Catholic Church. Miracles of the magnitude of Fatima, healings at Lourdes, incorruptibles, Eucharistic miracles, the stigmata etc are not found in other religions.

As Pope St. Pius X wrote in his, “Oath against Modernism”:

“To be sworn to by all clergy, pastors, confessors, preachers, religious superiors, and professors in philosophical-theological seminaries:
….I accept and acknowledge the external proofs of revelation, that is, divine acts and especially miracles and prophecies as the surest signs of the divine origin of the Christian religion and I hold that these same proofs are well adapted to the understanding of all eras and all men, even of this time.”

There are no other religions of divine origin - others are started by men and that is why they lack major miracles.

 

[wkj_123]

No problem friend I always enjoy a good discussion. You seem intelligent so I’m sure you know the effects that would insue if the sun came close enough to dry people’s clothes. Now I know that statement triggers the well it’s God he can suspend physics that’s what miracles are argument. If anything is possible is on the table then clearly there is no point in debate. Yours and a bunch of other God’s can do whatever they want and you can’t rule it out cause anything is possible.i think it is religion vs religion because religions use these things to show “see my God is the real one.” All religions have them, some more impressive than this one. Again I fail to see why an omnipetent god would work a miracle like this? Should be no problem for him to show the whole world at once. And since knowledge doesn’t negate free will, then why not?

 

[joseie]

You say that Fatima miracle was’to make the people believe’ as informed 3 month before.What did the people believe due to this miracle? This was sufficient and necessary for such people to believe?Such type of miracles claimed as happened in other religions are all fraud ?

 

[wkj_123]

The testimonials include those from people miles away from where the miracle took place. It was seen for something like 200 mi.² That rules out mass hysteria.

You will also notice that in many of the testimonials in the book, they all agreed that they know of no one that claimed they didn’t see anything . There are no testimonials from people who were there that said they were nothing happened.

Well the first one I came accross was Alphonso Vieira who stated that he witnessed the miracle without remembering the predictions of the children. First off I don’t believe he didn’t remember, but it clearly sets up suggested influence.( The book you linked didn’t mention that part, or if it did I couldn’t find it). You have heard a miracle is coming and you say you saw it. Nothing new people make false claims all day long. See you have introduced distance as an argument by saying he was far away so he wasn’t in on the crowd frenzy. If your going to use it, then you need to defend why millions of others saw nothing? Why did absolutely zero observatories notice anything? Now obviously the whole “God only showed those that came thing” has been shot down by the distance argument.

 

[Eddie18]

The 3 children at Fatima claimed to have met with this “lady from heaven” three times prior to them predicting the miracle. During those 3 meetings, the lady gave the children a series of Catholic messages to give to the people of the area. Of course no one believed the children. I believe it was the 4th visit where the lady promised a miracle to make the people believe the messages the children had been relaying. When the miracle occurred at the time and location predicted, it confirmed it was authentic, along with the Catholic message that went with it.

There are multiple movies that have been created on the miracle, the most recent being “The 13th Day”.

 

[Eddie18]

Remember this was in 1917 in a remote location. The fact remains, the miracle was predicted to the exact time and location - something no human being could possibly do. You cannot explain this. The supernatural has to be involved for someone to make such a prediction.

Something huge obviously happened enough to make thousands of people immediately fall to the ground and beg for their lives. Even if you want to try and pick apart every little sentence of the eyewitnesses, the fact that anything happened at that exact time in such a remote location in the pouring rain, says it all. There was supposedly 70,000 people that gathered there that day, and thousands of them submitted testimonials to the Catholic Church, which investigated each one of them. In 1930, after 13 years, the Church confirmed their investigation showed the miracle was worthy of belief.

 

[misstherese]

No problem friend I always enjoy a good discussion. You seem intelligent so I’m sure you know the effects that would insue if the sun came close enough to dry people’s clothes.

Of course, they’d die.

Now I know that statement triggers the well it’s God he can suspend physics that’s what miracles are argument.

Beat me to it

If anything is possible is on the table then clearly there is no point in debate.

But isn’t that what makes it a miracle? The seemingly impossible becoming possible in real time?

A lot of saints had visions. Sometimes Jesus would appear to them beaten and on the cross, bleeding and sad. Was He actually in that state? Probably not, but He portrayed Himself that way in order to teach something to that saint. I think a similar thing happened that day when the sun danced.

 

[Roguish]

Now I know that statement triggers the well it’s God he can suspend physics that’s what miracles are argument.

You sound like a scientifically oriented guy, so I’d like to offer this: the suspension of the laws of physics is not in contradiction with physics.

If anything is possible is on the table then clearly there is no point in debate.

Precisely

Yours and a bunch of other God’s can do whatever they want

Well, yes, except that you’re making it sound as if God’s Will is something whimsical, erratic. It isn’t, of course. God’s Will is orderly.

Anyway, I stand by my point that only innocent folk will ever witness a miracle. As for the alleged atheists that witnessed Fatima: there’s many a self-proclaimed atheist who in his heart wishes to believe, and therefore is in fact capable of witnessing a miracle. Can you think of anyone like that, @wkj_123 ?

 

[PrisonerOfChrist]

I hope I don’t offend our Lord or anybody here but some alleged miracles I’ve read seem to shake my faith rather than strengthen it. This one in particular taken from St Louis de Montfort’s book “The Secret of the Rosary”. I quote:

Our Lady also protected Alan de l’Anvallay, a Breton knight, from great perils. He too was fighting for the faith against the Albigensians. One day, when he found himself surrounded by enemies on all sides, our Lady let fall a hundred and fifty rocks upon his enemies and he was delivered from their hands. Another day, when his ship had foundered and was about to sink, this good Mother caused a hundred and fifty small hills to appear miraculously above the water and by means of them they reached Brittany in safety.

I know we are not obligated to believe in miracles if they are not approved by the Church Magisterium. Still we I read stories like these, it does not strengthen my faith; quite the opposite.

 

[joseie]

Even if the miracles are approved by church,one need not believe it.No sin is committed by that.As you said,many miracles have just the opposite effect on the faith.Also many take it that if we believe in these type of miracles (which they know are really fraud), the same could be the the level of the fundamental miracles also mentioned in the Bible.

 

[Eddie18]

I don’t understand. Why exactly does the quote you provided weaken your faith?

 

[Eddie18]

The entire reason the Catholic Church bothers to spend years researching major miracles is to help boost the faith of the faithful. Miracles, by their nature, are astounding. Never in my life have I ever heard someone say that a miracle negatively affected their faith. Never. That is just bizarre.

 

[joseie]

You have now heard at least two saying that these type of miracles do more harm than strengthening the faith…

 

[Eddie18]

How though??? I don’t get it.

 

[AndrewAxland]

How though??? I don’t get it.

Because they can be counterfeited by unscrupulous frauds and charlatans, who can mislead the faithful. There have been many occurrences of that. Even today, that is a problem.

The Church does not have enough time or people to investigate every “miraculous” appearance of Our Lord on a piece of toast, or of the Holy Virgin on the wall of someone’s shower stall. There is a point where private devotion can slip over into common superstition.

 

[Eddie18]

There are frauds in every aspect of life - that’s life! Just because there are frauds out there doesn’t affect the certainty of the major miracles the Church has investigated and approved.

 

[clarkgamble1]

but HOW on earth can a Catholic not believe, or even doubt for one second, that miracles exist?

Consider this scenario. A group of 21st century explorers discovers a remote tribe of Amazon natives that have never seen another human being. The explorers arrive with high powered flashlights, weapons, cameras, video recorders, movie projectors, knives, and axes, and even simple butane lighter fire starters. The ignorant natives would see miracles performed on a daily basis. They might even think these explorers were their divine gods and goddesses. Go back now to 1917. We have a bunch of ignorant humans, true, they are much more advanced than the Amazon natives, but still very ignorant. Now imagine an advanced race of extraterrestrials, say 10,000 years more evolved than us earthlings, shows up with unimaginable technologies way ahead of 1917. They could with probably little effort create all the Fatima phenomena and more if they wanted to. The visited might even think these visitors were their divine Gods and Goddesses. If their “magic” was good, thousands of people would attest to their miracles.

Are you brave enough to consider this second scenario as maybe might have happened in 1917? Are you brave enough to consider that in this vast universe there just might be a civilization that could visit us as in 1917 and perform these miracles?

 

[Eddie18]

You are not considering a critical fact of the miracle at Fatima. It was publicly predicted to the exact time and location 3 months in advance by the 3 children. This is the only reason why a crowd of 70,000 showed up in that remote field on that rainy day. The fact that every witness confirms something MAJOR happened at that exact time and place confirms the supernatural had to be involved in the miracle. There is no other explanation.