Catholics that dont like Catholic teaching

[Damascus]

If someone decides they dont like something for instance, like accepting the IC dogma, and choses to not believe it and stays in the CHurch since they agree with everything else, have they excommunicated themselves?

If they state it publically or disagree with it publically can they still call themselves Catholic?

I dont think you can. Am I right?

 

[Della]

What each of us believes in the secret recesses of our hearts is between each of us and God. But, publicly stating disbelief in a dogma is quite another matter because it causes public scandal.

As I understand it, there are very few actions that make for an automatic excommunication. One would be helping someone get an abortion or getting an abortion oneself.

I don’t believe your example qualifies, although it would be scandalous. Hopefully one of our clergy board members could help you with this one, or you can “Ask an Apologist.”

 

[exoflare]

If they state it publically or disagree with it publically can they still call themselves Catholic?

I dont think you can. Am I right?

Let me put it to you this way. They have about as much right to call themselves “Catholic” as I have to call myself a giraffe.

 

[tamccrackine]

Wow do I feel totally stupid… but what’s the IC Dogma? (I’ll probably figure it out as soon as I hit “post”)

I struggle with this idea all the time. I’ve got alot of family that call themselves Catholic yet they practice anything but. I’ve resigned myself to praying for them as intellectual discussions don’t work. (probably because it’s family and we’ve got too much emotion invested in each other)

 

[exoflare]

Wow do I feel totally stupid… but what’s the IC Dogma? (I’ll probably figure it out as soon as I hit “post”)

Immaculate conception

 

[exoflare]

Important little detail that I left out before… I don’t think you should actually go around TELLING people they aren’t Catholic. That usually just makes things worse, so there’s not point.

 

[tamccrackine]

Important little detail that I left out before… I don’t think you should actually go around TELLING people they aren’t Catholic. That usually just makes things worse, so there’s not point.

Good point, but how would you do that in the first place? I know I can only speak for myself when I say I don’t point that out using those words… but when you’re talking to a person that claims they are Catholic and trying to convince you their opinions on what the Church teaches (ie, ABC and abortion) is ok, how can you not come across as telling them they aren’t Catholics? I don’t use those words, but I think the idea is conveyed enough for them to fully understand that I don’t think they’re Catholic when they hold those opinions.

I’m so sorry… I hope I’m charitable in those words… I am struggling so hard with this right now. My mother is pro-abortion and part of me wants to scream. yes it’s because of my past and her involvement in my abortion (which, in a nutshell was “You’re getting an abortion and you have no say”) but because I’m not 19 anymore, and I have studied and grown so much since, I try to share with her but she shuts me out. I have forgiven her (I truly have) but she’s the type of person that if you show her she’s wrong, she will take it as an attack and give off the “everyone hates me, nobody loves me” mentality. It’s so hard for me ot listen to her talk to her womens’ group that abortion is ok because she had a friend that committed adultery and got pregnant yet if her husband found out, he’d beat her up because he was abusive and that lead to the adultery in the first place. Circular thinking with no end in sigjt… but still… me telling her that two wrongs don’t make a right made her flip out. She’s an EME, goes to CWOC, teaches with RCIA… very involved with the community of the Church. But her core beliefs aren’t in line with Rome. (does that makes sense?)

So I’m sorry… I really am struggling and just searching and praying so hard to find something that might work.

ETA: wow, you can tell I’ve had a glass of wine… my spelling stinks!

 

[I_A]

Its ususally not a good idea to talk on internet forums about family while drinking.

Humor aside you may want to ask her priest to give a sermon about it and explain why it is the church teaches something. Pride really gets in the way of things, especially if your own child is trying to tell you your wrong with something, whereas a priest is someone with authority and who is educated (or should be) with the myriad of reasons why the truths are, well, true.

Try not to tell the priest, talk one on one to her, or something because she could see it as a personal attack on her and become defensive of her position but rather have a sermon on the reasons why we believe the in the imaculate conception or just why abortion is as horrendous as it is, and if she approaches him afterwards shes opening up the door herself.

The reasons behind the Immaculate Conception she should have heard every year seeing as how it is a holy day of obligation here in the US due to her unique intercession for us. You might want to especially invite her to celeberate it with you that day, and if she asks about it refer her to a solid priest you know, that way its not you two headbutting rather its her seeking out wisdom.

Edit: By the way, the Immaculate Conception isn’t just a doctrine or a title, she is a person, our mother. Entrust your earthly mother to Jesus through your heavenly mother. She will ensure Christ moves in her heart.

 

[Damascus]

Good point, but how would you do that in the first place? I know I can only speak for myself when I say I don’t point that out using those words… but when you’re talking to a person that claims they are Catholic and trying to convince you their opinions on what the Church teaches (ie, ABC and abortion) is ok, how can you not come across as telling them they aren’t Catholics? I don’t use those words, but I think the idea is conveyed enough for them to fully understand that I don’t think they’re Catholic when they hold those opinions.

I’m so sorry… I hope I’m charitable in those words… I am struggling so hard with this right now. My mother is pro-abortion and part of me wants to scream. yes it’s because of my past and her involvement in my abortion (which, in a nutshell was “You’re getting an abortion and you have no say”) but because I’m not 19 anymore, and I have studied and grown so much since, I try to share with her but she shuts me out. I have forgiven her (I truly have) but she’s the type of person that if you show her she’s wrong, she will take it as an attack and give off the “everyone hates me, nobody loves me” mentality. It’s so hard for me ot listen to her talk to her womens’ group that abortion is ok because she had a friend that committed adultery and got pregnant yet if her husband found out, he’d beat her up because he was abusive and that lead to the adultery in the first place. Circular thinking with no end in sigjt… but still… me telling her that two wrongs don’t make a right made her flip out. She’s an EME, goes to CWOC, teaches with RCIA… very involved with the community of the Church. But her core beliefs aren’t in line with Rome. (does that makes sense?)
So I’m sorry… I really am struggling and just searching and praying so hard to find something that might work.

ETA: wow, you can tell I’ve had a glass of wine… my spelling stinks!

I will pray for your mother as it sounds she is in dire need of help.

I think you have done all you can do with trying to help her. Maybe leave some Catholic books on the subject out lying around for her to see, subscribe her to a Catholic magazine and maybe that will help too. What a situation!

You are a very forgiving and kind person.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Good point, but how would you do that in the first place? I know I can only speak for myself when I say I don’t point that out using those words… but when you’re talking to a person that claims they are Catholic and trying to convince you their opinions on what the Church teaches (ie, ABC and abortion) is ok, how can you not come across as telling them they aren’t Catholics? I don’t use those words, but I think the idea is conveyed enough for them to fully understand that I don’t think they’re Catholic when they hold those opinions.

I’m so sorry… I hope I’m charitable in those words… I am struggling so hard with this right now. My mother is pro-abortion and part of me wants to scream. yes it’s because of my past and her involvement in my abortion (which, in a nutshell was “You’re getting an abortion and you have no say”) but because I’m not 19 anymore, and I have studied and grown so much since, I try to share with her but she shuts me out. I have forgiven her (I truly have) but she’s the type of person that if you show her she’s wrong, she will take it as an attack and give off the “everyone hates me, nobody loves me” mentality. It’s so hard for me ot listen to her talk to her womens’ group that abortion is ok because she had a friend that committed adultery and got pregnant yet if her husband found out, he’d beat her up because he was abusive and that lead to the adultery in the first place. Circular thinking with no end in sigjt… but still… me telling her that two wrongs don’t make a right made her flip out. She’s an EME, goes to CWOC, teaches with RCIA… very involved with the community of the Church. But her core beliefs aren’t in line with Rome. (does that makes sense?)

So I’m sorry… I really am struggling and just searching and praying so hard to find something that might work.

ETA: wow, you can tell I’ve had a glass of wine… my spelling stinks!

tamccrackine:

No, you’re not being uncharitable, and none of that makes sense. You’re just like the rest of us who are horrified at what some are teaching and worried that people are being led astray even while they are being led in the doors of the Catholic Church.

On top of that, she’s committing sacrilege every time she touches the Body and Blood of the Lord, and the Priest and those in charge most certainly need to know about her position on Abortion and ABC.

Regarding this woman’s responsibilities, have you tried talking to her pastor or to the people who are supervising her? Have you told them about these exchanges? I know I would want to know if someone supported positions contrary to Church Teaching.

If she wants to hold these heretical positions, let her hold them as a “Cafeteria Catholic” in the pews where she’s not responsible for the spiritual formation of new Catholics or for distributing our Lord’s Holy Body and Blood, committing sacrilege and scandalizing all those who know what she says about Abortion and the Church Teachings on Human Sexuality.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael

 

[setter]

I have forgiven her (I truly have) but she’s the type of person that if you show her she’s wrong, she will take it as an attack and give off the “everyone hates me, nobody loves me” mentality.

So I’m sorry… I really am struggling and just searching and praying so hard to find something that might work.

I would add that the most power tool and weapon for conversion of heart and mind is prayer …and prayer buttressed with fasting especially. You may not be the person to whom your mother will listen to. All you (or anyone) can do is present the truth of the Church’s teaching and have your mother consider how her personal views differ and why is that? I would not give into her emotional tactics to deflect from the facts and issue at hand – her views do not line up with Church teaching. That is her problem, and ultimately God’s problem to extend the grace of conversion to her.

 

[RichP]

If someone decides they dont like something for instance, like accepting the IC dogma, and choses to not believe it and stays in the CHurch since they agree with everything else, have they excommunicated themselves?

If they state it publically or disagree with it publically can they still call themselves Catholic?

I dont think you can. Am I right?

Once a person is baptized, they remain baptized forever. Baptism is one of the sacraments that puts an indelible mark on our soul that cannot be removed by excommunication or any other actions we may do.

If a person is excommunicated, they do not receive Baptism again to remove the excommunication.

There are many people who have been baptized Catholic who don’t believe one or more of Catholic dogmas. There are many Catholics who do not believe that the Eucharist is not the body and blood of Jesue. Many of these attend Mass and receive the Eucharist.

These people certainly can call themselves Catholic since they are baptized. However, they should not present their *opinions *as valid Catholic teaching. They *SHOULD *say that it is only their opinion and it is in conflict with the Church.

People who reject Catholic teaching are heretics, pure and simple. With the assistance of Holy Spirit, we should help guide these people towards the Truth where we can and we should always pray for them.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

…

…People who reject Catholic teaching are heretics, pure and simple. With the assistance of Holy Spirit, we should help guide these people towards the Truth where we can and we should always pray for them.

**A little footnote: **​

**1. The sin of heresy is not committed - & so, no personal guilt is contracted - where there is no obstinacy; which means that the person must know he is wrong, and persevere in his self-admitted wrongness. Obstinacy is so essential to the sin of heresy, that without it no sin of heresy is committed (as Cardinal Cajetan pointed out as long ago as 1517; see Philip Hughes, S.J., The Reformation in England, vol. 1) **

**- IOW: heresy is a sin because to commit it one is saying that, though one is well aware that God says so-and-so, one is going to say the contrary of that. It strikes at the very root of the submission of intellect to God which rational creatures ought to show Him; **
**that is why it is so serious - because it destroys the relation we have as redeemed creatures to their Creator & Redeemer. **

2. A materially heretical assertion - e.g., “Jesus is no more than a mere man” - is not formally heretical without the same conditions as for any other mortal sin; IOW, merely to say something that is opposed to a revealed truth, is not of itself to commit heresy. People can say things that are opposed to revealed truths while believing what they say is a revealed truth - for example, they can say “Salvation is by works alone” - but that does not make them as persons heretics; it means no more than that their utterance is heretical. So no amount or degree of doctrinal wrongness can qualify as heresy, unless certain conditions are fulfi****lled.

3. To say that “heresy is unorthodox” is true; it does not follow that all unorthodox statements are heretical; a further reason to be slow to accuse anyone of heresy.

**4. “Not liking” a teaching is not heresy - it is so far from heresy, that it is entirely compatible with whole-hearted obedience; as with the doctrine that forbids the use of ****artificial birth control. Someone who complies with that teaching may be acting obediently at great personal cost, even while not much liking what that particular doctrine requires of her. **

---

**5. One cannot be a heretic if one’s quarrel is with something that is not divinely revealed. Where there is a quarrel is with something that requires obedience, but not the obedience due to something that is an object of Divine or Ecclesiastical faith, there may be scandal or rashness or disobedience - but not heresy **

 

[ricko]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that “heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth that must be believed with divine and Catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same” (CCC 2089).

To commit heresy, one must refuse to be corrected. A person who is ready to be corrected or who is unaware that what he has been saying is against Church teaching is not a heretic.

A person must be baptized to commit heresy. Movements that have split off from or been influenced by Christianity but do not practice baptism (or do not practice valid baptism) are not heresies but separate religions.

Finally, the doubt or denial involved in heresy must concern a matter that has been revealed by God and solemnly defined by the Church (for example, the Trinity, the Incarnation, the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the sacrifice of the Mass, the pope’s infallibility, or the Immaculate Conception and Assumption of Mary).

—Catholic Answers staff

Also, someone said that the Immaculate Conception is not a doctrine that Mary is called the Immaculate Conception. This is not completely true. The IC is a doctrine of the Church and identifies how Mary was conceived. At the same time she is also identified as “The Immaculate Conception”.

 

[Cranch]

There are many people who have been baptized Catholic who don’t believe one or more of Catholic dogmas. There are many Catholics who do not believe that the Eucharist is not the body and blood of Jesue. Many of these attend Mass and receive the Eucharist.

Just to clarify: did you mean instead “There are many Catholics who do not believe that the Eucharist is the body and blood…”?

 

[CRW]

If someone decides they dont like something for instance, like accepting the IC dogma, and choses to not believe it and stays in the CHurch since they agree with everything else, have they excommunicated themselves?

If they state it publically or disagree with it publically can they still call themselves Catholic?

I dont think you can. Am I right?

Canon 751: Hersey is the obstinate denial or doubt, after baptism, of a truth which must be believed by divine and catholic faith. Canon 1364: An apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic incurs a late sententiae excommunication, without prejudice to the provisions of can. 194, sections 1 & 2.

Automatic excommunication follows on certain offenses: apostasy, hersey, or schism…Encyclopedia of Catholic Doctrine

 

[Polaris]

Canon 751: Hersey is the obstinate denial or doubt, after baptism, of a truth which must be believed by divine and catholic faith. Canon 1364: An apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic incurs a late sententiae excommunication, without prejudice to the provisions of can. 194, sections 1 & 2.

Automatic excommunication follows on certain offenses: apostasy, hersey, or schism…Encyclopedia of Catholic Doctrine

What exactly is meant by Obstinate doubt? There are a lot of things I doubt in the Catholic church and I try to educate myself but sometimes even after that a huge doubt remains. Does this mean Im a heretic and excommunicated?

 

[CRW]

What exactly is meant by Obstinate doubt? There are a lot of things I doubt in the Catholic church and I try to educate myself but sometimes even after that a huge doubt remains. Does this mean Im a heretic and excommunicated?

Obstinate - perversely adhering to an opinion, or course in spite of reason, arguments, or persuasion. Your original post, as I recall, concerned Catholic Dogma. As baptized Catholic’s, we must believe, no opinion or doubts. We trust the teachings of the Church.

I would never suggest that you or anyone would be or is excommunicated. I would however, suggest that you discussed this with your priest. My post was information provided by the referenced material in response to your post.

“If someone decides they don’t like something for instance, like accepting the IC dogma, and choses to not believe it” was your first post. Your post now indicates a different view - doubt. If you chose not to believe Catholic Dogma, then that is a totally different position. I think many individuals may have some limited reason or doubts, but they accept the teachings because they are Catholic.

 

[Polaris]

Obstinate - perversely adhering to an opinion, or course in spite of reason, arguments, or persuasion. Your original post, as I recall, concerned Catholic Dogma. As baptized Catholic’s, we must believe, no opinion or doubts. We trust the teachings of the Church.

I would never suggest that you or anyone would be or is excommunicated. I would however, suggest that you discussed this with your priest. My post was information provided by the referenced material in response to your post.

“If someone decides they don’t like something for instance, like accepting the IC dogma, and choses to not believe it” was your first post. Your post now indicates a different view - doubt. If you chose not to believe Catholic Dogma, then that is a totally different position. I think many individuals may have some limited reason or doubts, but they accept the teachings because they are Catholic.

No, I dont think I had a change of view. That was my first question or comment in this thread. I think you have me confused me with the OP. Thanks though. I was just curious to know if I was now kicked out of the church. I already never recieve the Holy Eucharist because I do not think it would be right for me because of my doubts. Gosh the longer I live the longer Im sure I have a zero percent chance of making it to God.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

What exactly is meant by Obstinate doubt? There are a lot of things I doubt in the Catholic church and I try to educate myself but sometimes even after that a huge doubt remains. Does this mean Im a heretic and excommunicated?

Polaris:

This may not be the proper place for you to figure this out, because it seems that you’ve misunderstood something that someone quoted from the Catholic Encyclopedia, which is a Teaching Resource and not the infallible Teaching Authority of the Church.

Obstinate Doubt is a doubt which one chooses to hold instead of (Please pardon me if I don’t say this correctly) praying for the grace to accept the Doctrine even if we can’t understand it. As long as you are willing to say/pray, “Lord, I believe, help my lack of faith,” and to remain open to the Gift of Faith, You can’t possibly be in Obstinate Doubt.

I hope this clarifies the situation and helps to releave any difficulties.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael