Catholics that dont like Catholic teaching

[Damascus]

Well, so what starlight is saying is the Church is capricious and has rules that can not be followed.
The only way one (in starlights mind) can do it is to lie and not really do it, therefore making all hypocrites in some degree or another.

Not the Catholic Church you are describing to me starlight.

There is not one rule in the Church that Can Not be followed, and I dont care who is or isnt - I do care about My following them, and yes -

It can be done.

I wish everyone remembered weather its something you Can do or is it something you Choose not to do.

 

[fix]

If I had wanted a church in which I was free to disagree with the hierarchy, I would’ve remained Protestant, and if I had anything but full assent to the authority of the Catholic Church on the day I made my confirmation (3 months ago), I would’ve been a bigger hypocrite, and under even harsher judgment from God by calling him down as a witness to something I didn’t truly believe. So please, be careful when tossing about the term hypocrite.

Thank you for pointing out a critical distinction.

I read this recently and it reminded me of your point today:

…A man is not a hypocrite because he violates a moral norm in which he sincerely believes… Violating norms we sincerely accept does not make us hypocrites. If it did, hypocrisy would not be a peculiar kind of wrongdoing but a concomitant of all wrongdoing.

Wrongdoing like that in my examples is not hypocrisy because it flows from weakness, not malice. Contrary to our sincere intentions and wishes, we sometimes do things we know to be wrong. Immediately after doing them, we acknowledge, at least to ourselves, that we have done wrong. We wish we had not done wrong, and we intend to do better next time…

Hypocrisy is a much worse form of moral wrongdoing. It’s a certain kind of lying, and so can be done only consciously and intentionally. In particular, a man’s moral character comes from what he takes as his final end in life, his understanding of the human good, and the hypocrite is a man who dissembles about what he thinks this good is. The hypocrite pretends to accept and live by one set of values when, in fact, he accepts and lives by quite different ones…

firstthings.com/onthesquare/?p=526

 

[netmilsmom]

So when do you guys begin the inquisition? Who do you burn first? There are so many “heretics” in your eyes, so much hate. It’s very sad. It’s people like you that should be excommunicated. The Church doesn’t need it’s own version of the Taliban.

You know what? I don’t even think for a minute that a single of one you really, truly believes every single dogma of the Church. You just convince yourselves that you do. It gives you a feeling of superiority over others. You can tell yourselves that you are better than someone else - and if you need to do that, you very probably aren’t.

As a cafeteria Catholic, at least in your eyes, I think heresy hunters are the antithesis to the message we derive from Christ.

Personally, at the risk of sounding superior myself, I think you’re all a bunch of hypocrites. Worry about yourselves, and not about whether anyone else is enough of a Catholic or not. Who the heck are you to judge? Remember what Jesus says about the log in your eye. Ii is precisely for these kinds of things that we have those sayings in the Bible. Do you really hold yourselves to the impossibly high standards you hold others to? I doubt it. The sanctimonious never do.

Who even needs the Church if everyone is perfect? That’s what forgiveness and “agape” are for. Where’s the compassion?

Ok, I’m checking out now. The hate is overwhelming these forums. It’s like an anti-Church, a Church from the dark side, not the beautiful, wondrous, truly spiritual Church that Catholicism has blessed us with.

Rules are rules. If you want to be Catholic, follow them, if not there are many other churches you can go to. I’m not trying to be mean. I’m just stating that if you don’t agree with the dogma, trying to change the church is not going to get you anywhere.

I can’t say that I agree with some of the things the higher ups say in our church. (especially some Cardinals) BUT I try to live according to the dogma of the church. If you don’t live it, whether you believe it or not, why would you want to be Catholic?
Perhaps a bit of research as to WHY the dogma is the way it is, will help with that you disagree with.
Djrakowski can help you. He found the truth that brought him to the Catholic Church.

 

[djrakowski]

Thank you for pointing out a critical distinction.

You’re welcome, and I appreciate the illustration you included with your response. When I disobey a teaching of the Church, I do so either out of weakness or ignorance. If I do so out of weakness, I pray for the grace to overcome this particular weakness, and if I do so out of ignorance, I study to fill the gaps in my knowledge of what the Church teaches.

By starling’s standard, anybody who holds certain principles as true and then violates them out of weakness is a hypocrite. So, that pretty much includes every last one of us, doesn’t it?

 

[Cranch]

…the Church proper (if not the posters in this thread) actually WANTS people to be saved.

Nice to meet you, too.

 

[mikew262]

While I’m not as aggressive as Starling in my feelings, I do understand where he/she is coming from. I feel the majority of mainstream Catholics do not agree with 100% of Catholic teachings, but still very much consider themselves Catholic. I’ve heard that from priests and seen it in polls.

I don’t personally fault devout Catholics who say they adhere to all teachings. I agree with Starling that person I think is very rare indeed and many may profess it, but in reality do not, proven by word or deed. Modern day Pharisees I like to call them.

Perhaps the ones on here who do profess 100% adherence to Catholic doctrine are telling the truth, I can’t judge otherwise, nor is it my place to judge.

However what is frustrating to most of us “mainstreamers” who post here is the judging and condescension that goes on from the ones who actively promote their own devoutness. It gets old. If you want to educate us on what the Church says about a subject, thats one thing, but to come out actively judging somebody and say they don’t belong in the Catholic Church is just plain wrong and un-Christianlike IMO.

Hope this helps.

 

[fix]

You’re welcome, and I appreciate the illustration you included with your response. When I disobey a teaching of the Church, I do so either out of weakness or ignorance. If I do so out of weakness, I pray for the grace to overcome this particular weakness, and if I do so out of ignorance, I study to fill the gaps in my knowledge of what the Church teaches.

By starling’s standard, anybody who holds certain principles as true and then violates them out of weakness is a hypocrite. So, that pretty much includes every last one of us, doesn’t it?

Yes, I believe the term is mostly misused.

My other point is that in today’s intellectual climate we often hear folks are encouraged to seek the truth.

The problem is if one finds the truth and tries to live it one is termed a hypocrite, or intolerant, or judgmental, or a pharisee.

Christ’s teaching are seen as an ideal, not be be attained or lived, just sought after.

 

[fix]

I agree with Starling that person I think is very rare indeed and many may profess it, but in reality do not, proven by word or deed. Modern day Pharisees I like to call them.

Christ said of the pharisees to do exactly as they tell you to do, but do not live as they do. The point is they had the seat of authority and the law was to be followed. The Pharisees did not hold themselves to the same standard. They were authentic hypocrites.

Can you see the distinction?

 

[mikew262]

Christ said of the pharisees to do exactly as they tell you to do, but do not live as they do. The point is they had the seat of authority and the law was to be followed. The Pharisees did not hold themselves to the same standard. They were authentic hypocrites.

Can you see the distinction?

I suppose there is a fine line of distinction, but I believe most folks know what I’m talking about.

 

[tequilamac]

Hi,

What if you publicly disagree with any of the dogmas/doctrine. What if you disagree with birth control, homosexual marriage, celibacy of priests publicly. Would this be a cause to be considered not a catholic anymore?

Or would it be bigger doctrines like the Mary or purgatory etc. You guys get my point.

If a person disagrees with certain faith and morals but keeps it private then that is different cause no one knows except God of course.

Im just wondering because I dont personally know a single catholic(not even by devout in-laws) who believe in everything the CC stands for.:nope:

Well now you have two ALLFORHIM. I can honestly say I am one of those horrible hypocritical pharisees mentioned above because I believe in everything the catechism says. But I’ll tell you a secret. Before we had this new fangled catechism sometime after Vatican II, many of us oldsters had the Baltimore. And we were taught that which is still true today and is the loophole that I spoke of above. That if we find a point we disagree on in the catechism, then the problem is ours not the catechism’s and we had better set about post haste to fix it. Preferably before the next Holy Day of Obligation where our friends and neighbors would see us refraining from communion because we were in sin. A fate worse than death. So many prayers went up, candles lit and rosaries and alms giving in order to bring one’s will into conformity with God’s in the catechism.
And most of us ultimately did. That was what was meant by a perfectly formed conscience. But what is derived unfortunately from the poor wording of the latter catechisms is that conscience means one must understand and agree. No. A good conscience is one that KNOWS the catechism is correct whether one understands it or not. Because it is infallible. That has always been the definition in action of a properly formed conscience. But, it is not the fault of the people that the catechism we have now does not stress that anymore. I personally think the Church jumped the gun in thinking all members were mature enough to continue on with somethings unspoken. For instance, properly formed conscience. Another is like the Friday fasts. For some reason, once the Church stopped making it obligatory to fast on Fridays or abstain from meat, people thought no more penance was due on Fridays. Wrong. It is just the Church in her hopefulness hoped we were mature enough spiritually to do the right thing without being hit over the head with it anymore. The New Catechism reverses some of this problem- the new one from August. It returns just a bit to understanding that not all it’s members are particularly mature spiritually and even includes little stories of the Saints to illustrate it’s points. A real sweet catechism that might help people out. We’ll see. We got a lot of freedom after Vatican II because the Church had a lot of confidence in us. But in her holy wisdom now she sees we are not quite as adult as she thought and has realized that while we are not quite children we are adolescent. I think we will see more of a gentle but firm return to the truths of the faith.

 

[mikew262]

Well now you have two ALLFORHIM. I can honestly say I am one of those horrible hypocritical pharisees mentioned above because I believe in everything the catechism says.

Only if you profess it, but truly don’t or you don’t live it.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Kariane, I was taught by the nuns (starting in 1962) and I don’t recall hearing that non-Catholics were going to hell. Neither did my 5 years’ older sister have that teaching. Maybe it was our location (Philadelphia)? I was told by one forum poster that he was taught in St. Louis in the 60s that non Catholics went to hell, Catholics really worship the Virgin Mary, etc. so maybe you were just in an area of bad catechesis?

And BTW I used my mind (I still do )even at 50, and I didn’t just ‘glom’ onto the teachings and accept them ‘unthinkingingly’. I find it rather presumptious that you assume that those of us who obey do so out of sloth, or stupidity, rather than that we have utilized our reason and, especially BECAUSE we use our reason, obey Church teachings.

 

[boppaid]

ALL for Him,

You are aware that the Catholic Church does not teach that non catholics are damned to hell right? You did know that I hope.

Would you like the documents on that? I know you asked for My view on it, but its the Church view on it that matters.

I didn’t realize that. Thank you for pointing that out. What does the Catholic church teach on people who have falled away from the Catholic faith? (Like converts to protestantism?)

 

[boppaid]

Originally Posted by Karianne
Damascus, I was taught by nuns that non catholics were in fact going to Hell,

This is what I was taught as well.

 

[Damascus]

I didn’t realize that. Thank you for pointing that out. What does the Catholic church teach on people who have falled away from the Catholic faith? (Like converts to protestantism?)

What specifically do you want to know?

Salvation is not an obstacle for a Protestant if that helps?

I am not sure what you ask?

 

[Damascus]

This is what I was taught as well.

Listen boppaid, I have seen some of what you were taught, and guess what?

I did not get taught by my priests and if I had relied on them, I’d likely be in deep doo doo.

We need to get you into formation classes somehow, or someway.

Dont expect being a Catholic is going to be easy.

Expect it to be WORTH it!

 

[tequilamac]

I didn’t realize that. Thank you for pointing that out. What does the Catholic church teach on people who have falled away from the Catholic faith? (Like converts to protestantism?)

Much of what you are hearing is nonsense. The Church in her holy and infallible wisdom has determined the following:

Since in reality only those reach heaven who die in the state of justification or sanctifying grace, all these and only these are numbered among the predestined, strictly so called. From this it follows that we must reckon among them also all children who die in baptismal grace, as well as those adults who, after a life stained with sin, are converted on their death-beds. The same is true of the numerous predestined who, though outside the pale of the true Church of Christ, yet depart from this life in the state of grace as catechumens, Protestants in good faith, schismatics, Jews, Mahommedans, and pagans. Those fortunate Catholics who at the close of a long life are still clothed in their baptismal innocence, or who after many relapses into mortal sin persevere till the end, are not indeed predestined more firmly, but are more signally favoured than the last-named categories of persons.
newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

So do not be afraid-ever.
The reason people who argue about who can and cannot go to heaven is purely born of selfishness and hatred of their neighbor. For instance those who scream that Muslims should not be allowed into Heaven because well, it is just sooooo unfair. And we know the words of scorn the Lord had for people who thought it was unfair that non jews could go to heaven, don’t we?

 

[Damascus]

Its really this: its a mystery how some may enter heaven.

But- no matter how mysterious it is, it will be somehow or way through Christ and like it or not, through the Church —

So dont worry over it. Its a mystery.

Once one has knowledge of the true gospel and denies it - that is another topic.

Most dont so its not a concern for many.

You are actually better off not having a clue IMHO.

 

[boppaid]

What specifically do you want to know?

Salvation is not an obstacle for a Protestant if that helps?

I am not sure what you ask?

Ugh, where to start. I am seriously having a difficult time with my Catholic faith. I have been attending a protestant church as well, (although still going to mass). I truly seem to have more Protestant views.

I guess I was asking because I’m scared. I’m scared of making the wrong decision. What if I leave and I’m wrong? What if I leave the CC and truly believe I’m doing the right thing, and I’m wrong? Will I be damning myself and my children to Hell?

But what if I’m right?

Listen boppaid, I have seen some of what you were taught, and guess what?

I did not get taught by my priests and if I had relied on them, I’d likely be in deep doo doo.

We need to get you into formation classes somehow, or someway.

Dont expect being a Catholic is going to be easy.

Expect it to be WORTH it!

I am meeting with my Catholic pastor about this. I have also been online trying to research Catholic teaching, because I am starting to see that you are right about what I’ve been taught.

And, truly, I don’t expect Catholicism to be easy. I don’t expect my walk with the Lord to ever be easy, no matter which denomination I decide on. It’s not about me trying to make it easier…honestly.

 

[jamannor]

If someone decides they dont like something for instance, like accepting the IC dogma, and choses to not believe it and stays in the CHurch since they agree with everything else, have they excommunicated themselves?

If they state it publically or disagree with it publically can they still call themselves Catholic?

I dont think you can. Am I right?

Tough question, and I agree with everyone who says they probably shouldn’t be calling themselves Catholic, but Catholics are also cultural. Meaning that being Catholic is much more then just growing up in church and learning all the dogma that goes behind it. I went to church in a Methodist church but my mother grew up Catholic and my grandparents and aunts and uncles were all Catholic. Because my mother left the church before she even had me, I knew very little of Catholic doctrine, but it was all around me. Pictures of Mary, pictures of Saints, my mothers rosary, crucifixions. And then their was my Hispanic roots, the food we ate on Fridays (cheese enchiladas, fish). For all sake and purposes I was Catholic. Luckily, once I went to college and met my lovely finance I found out that what I was missing from going to my methodist church was the true church. And I became a true Catholic a couple of Easters ago. I guess to answer your question I think it just depends on what they mean by being Catholic.