Catholics Trapped by Feminism

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Yeah, but it’s not like it used to be. Male chauvinist pig was a common term on TV in the '70s when I was a kid. No one uses it anymore. Radical feminists have been pushed to the margins.
That’s not 100% true - RadFems are often found in leadership roles in the Catholic Church - like as DRE’s and Directors of Faith Formation in parish settings and they still spew out a lot of garbage. You’ll also find them in “Catholic” universities. IMHO, they do as much to undermine the status of women as the article mentioned by OP
 
Hello, 57thDimension.
And you are mistaken. Gender as a social construct is still in vogue (what the feminists you are interacting with are likely confused by is the common misuse of the word “gender” to describe biological sex, a frequent mistake). (Don’t forget that feminism doesn’t issue membership cards.)
You are correct in stating that feminism doesn’t issue membership cards; the only thing that unites the movement is the belief that men and women should be treated equally, and the desire to push society toward that ideal. Even then, there are many who identify as feminists without actually holding this view- for that reason, I imagine it’d be pretty hard to get any very reliable evidence about the beliefs of feminists in general.

We’re left with anecdotal evidence, then. It’s possible that you have met many feminists who believe that gender is a social construct. I don’t doubt your experiences, but they are very different from my own. The feminists I interact with are mostly young women, and they by and large accept the idea that gender identity (which is distinct from sex) is innate. Many of them believe a lot of things that don’t line up with a Catholic moral perspective, but gender as a social construct is not one of them. Perhaps I can’t speak for the movement as a whole, but I know that there are large groups of feminists who do believe that gender is innate.
 
facepalm

Some of the people on here: your “logic” undermines your views.* Please, do yourselves a favor and learn about logic. It’ll make debating a point that much easier (and maybe even enjoyable) for all involved.**



This thread is an excellent argument against college education (and that’s regardless of gender - and not directed in specific to the matter at hand, though it undoubtedly undermines a certain side of the debate). It’s funny to the point of tragedy.

The future belongs to those who show up (careerism does what to fertility…). Benedict XVI was right: we are in for a much smaller Church.
  • I was quite interested to see what is most likely the “backfire effect” in action in people who opposed the linked articles in the OP (very closely related to “poisoning the well,” too).
** Who knows, maybe there can be a sane debate on the matter without having people with third grade level reading comprehension (and an aversion to logic) playing quote-mining games.
 
With that out of the way, we might as well talk articles. I’ll start with the “6 reasons” article, since you seem eager to discuss it. The article lists six arguments:

1. She will attract the wrong types of men.

According to the article, young men are “very attracted to this responsible, organized, smart woman who has it all together along with a steady paying job with benefits.” The crux of this argument is that men won’t take care of women who can take care of themselves. The implication seems to be that women are better off being relatively helpless so that they attract strong providers.

There are several problems with this argument. One, it assumes that a given woman is called to marriage, which may not be the case. Two, it assumes that all the men she will meet at college are lazy do-nothings, which is certainly not the case. Three, it assumes that women cannot differentiate between men who will support and care for them (whether financially or otherwise) and men who will not. Since we know that it’s perfectly possible for a Christian woman to meet a hardworking Christian man at a college and work together with him to forge a successful marriage, this argument doesn’t hold water.

Another question is whether the presumption that male college students are going to be financial failures is even accurate; after all, college-educated men have access to higher-paying careers than men without higher education. Since many college-educated men are going to fall for women they meet at university, you could just as easily argue that you’re more likely to find a man on the road to financial stability at college than you are at home.

And, to reiterate, some women don’t marry, and they had better have a “steady paying job with benefits” if they want to live in this world with any degree of comfort.

2. She will be in a near occasion of sin.

This argument applies equally to males and females; nothing else really needs to be said. It’s not an argument for why women, specifically, shouldn’t go to college, while men should.

3. She will not learn to be a wife and mother.

I beg to differ. Since we know from other articles that the author values homeschooling, and we know that he expects a man to work a full-time job as household provider, we must assume that part of being “a wife and mother” is homeschooling your children. More knowledge makes you better suited to teaching your children (both sons and daughters) all about the awesome world they live in. Since you get a lot more knowledge at college (both from the coursework and the new environment), it stands to reason that the extra life experience will make you a better teacher.

Even if you don’t end up homeschooling your children, it’s still helpful to know a lot when teaching them. To use a personal example- my mother had a liberal arts education as well as a lot of training in fine arts, and she made good use of it even as a SAHM- she helped out with church sets and scenery for plays, made beautiful banners and paintings, and taught me a lot more about science, literature, art, history, and other topics than my elementary education ever did. Her education made her a better mother, and she was able to use it to enrich the whole parish on a pretty regular basis.

And of course, lest we forget: not all women are called to be wives and mothers.

4. The cost of a degree is becoming more difficult to recoup.

This is another argument that applies equally to males and females. There’s nothing female-specific here.

**5. You don’t have to prove anything to the world. **

No, women shouldn’t be pressured into believing that they must go to college to have worth. College isn’t the best path for some people, both men and women. But for someone who says women don’t have anything to prove, the author is being really patronizing here, and is belittling women’s goals and callings. He really doesn’t sound sincere.

6. It could be a near occasion of sin for the parents.

This applies equally to both men and women, again.

7. She will regret it.

The author is awfully certain of this point. No “could” or “might”- no, a woman’s regret is a statistical certainty. Of course, since I know several counter-examples personally, I don’t believe him.

I’ve met women who were very happy that they went to college- married women, whose children are leaving home now. Some of them used their college educations to have careers and earn money to provide for their families. Some of them used their college educations to homeschool their children. Others used their college educations to teach their children outside of school, as well as enrich their faith communities. Others were glad that their college educations gave them the chance to work part-time, doing what they love while also spending time with their children. Others still were downright grateful for their college educations when their husbands were no longer able to provide for them, either due to sickness or death. Life insurance isn’t enough to raise a family on.

So no, in my experience, regret is not certainty. It’s a chance, and I don’t think we should avoid opportunities or callings just because there’s a chance we might regret them in the future.

8. It could interfere with a religious vocation.

True. But since it’s likely to be very helpful to someone whose vocation is the single life, and could also be very helpful to a married woman for reasons detailed above, I really don’t think this is a good reason for those who don’t feel called to the religious life to avoid college on the off-chance that it turns out to be their vocation. Even if they needed to spend more time discerning, they’ll have to have some way of supporting themselves during the early stages of the discernment process.

In conclusion… These really aren’t very good arguments.
 
facepalm

Some of the people on here: your “logic” undermines your views.* Please, do yourselves a favor and learn about logic. It’ll make debating a point that much easier (and maybe even enjoyable) for all involved.**
I will be sure to study it more in the future, perhaps when I leave for college next year.
This thread is an excellent argument against college education (and that’s regardless of gender - and not directed in specific to the matter at hand, though it undoubtedly undermines a certain side of the debate). It’s funny to the point of tragedy.
Welp, if nothing else, that can’t be directed at me. Hooray for high-school-level education and understanding. :whistle:
The future belongs to those who show up (careerism does what to fertility…). Benedict XVI was right: we are in for a much smaller Church.
Fertility is honestly not my #1 priority right now. Nor should it be.
  • I was quite interested to see what is most likely the “backfire effect” in action in people who opposed the linked articles in the OP (very closely related to “poisoning the well,” too).
** Who knows, maybe there can be a sane debate on the matter without having people with third grade level reading comprehension (and an aversion to logic) playing quote-mining games.
I’m looking forward to understanding remarks like this as I continue in my education. But if I’m not supposed to get it from institutions of higher learning, I am left wondering where you think girls like me are supposed to learn debate skills. :ehh:

I suppose I could crack open the internet, but I’ve already done that, and I don’t see how the “backfire effect” is relevant (mostly because I’m not sure what evidence you’ve presented). Perhaps if I were to, say, receive instruction from a fellow human being in an organized environment, rather than attempting to become an expert by reading articles on the internet, I might have more success at this whole logic thing.
 
This thread is an excellent argument against college education (and that’s regardless of gender - and not directed in specific to the matter at hand, though it undoubtedly undermines a certain side of the debate). It’s funny to the point of tragedy.
Well, we finally agree on something. Certain posts on this thread definitely do suggest that some do not benefit from a college education. It’s ironic to the point of being funny.:rolleyes:
 
I will be sure to study it more in the future, perhaps when I leave for college next year.

Welp, if nothing else, that can’t be directed at me. Hooray for high-school-level education and understanding. :whistle:

Fertility is honestly not my #1 priority right now. Nor should it be.

I’m looking forward to understanding remarks like this as I continue in my education. But if I’m not supposed to get it from institutions of higher learning, I am left wondering where you think girls like me are supposed to learn debate skills. :ehh:
**
I suppose I could crack open the internet, **but I’ve already done that, and I don’t see how the “backfire effect” is relevant (mostly because I’m not sure what evidence you’ve presented). Perhaps if I were to, say, receive instruction from a fellow human being in an organized environment, rather than attempting to become an expert by reading articles on the internet, I might have more success at this whole logic thing.
You shouldn’t, it’s a hot bed of sin and orgies waiting to suck in innocent young women who don’t know any better
 
You shouldn’t, it’s a hot bed of sin and orgies waiting to suck in innocent young women who don’t know any better
True. I should probably go to my local public library; the books will be much less scandalous.

Sarcasm aside, I actually was told to avoid the internet when I had more contact with Evangelical Protestants. We were also frequently told to avoid any arguments that disagreed with our current viewpoints (at the time, this meant not watching documentaries that spoke of evolution- I was encouraged by some to avoid documentaries altogether to avoid the “bad” ones), lest they convince us with their “deception”. Given that the articles on the Fix the Family site remind me very much of my experiences with Evangelical Protestantism, it adds a whole other layer of troubling implications.

That’s not a direct response to the article’s points, of course. I’m just wondering how much of this attitude is anti-college education specifically, and how much is actually against knowledge and critical thinking in general.
 
You don’t need to take a course to know something about logic. The irony of college-educated people utilizing logical fallacies to defend the usefulness/benefit/etc of college education is quite apparent.

They are “patronizing” only insofar as the fact that you aren’t able or willing to identify the fallacies that you’ve used. I’ll give you a hint: most of the fallacies you use are ‘fallacies of relevance.’ How can I respond to fallacious arguments? Why spend time on it?

Yes, it is clear that you disagree.

I’m not, and you know it. I haven’t stated that that should be the case, and you know it (and if you somehow don’t, you have issues with reading comprehension). You’ve tried to suck me into your own pet example more than once - why are continuing? Why are you so obsessed with pushing me into a position that I’ve never stated that I oppose or support?

They aren’t my fallacies. If anything, they are yours (regardless of whether you recognize them or not).

I haven’t. (I’d be interested in seeing your basis for making your above statement…)

Okay. You seem to think that I’ve said otherwise, no?

… Then again, perhaps you’ve just misread what I’ve written. No, it’s almost as if you’re responding to something else (not what I’ve written).

Again, the pet example (and a very narrow one at that). If you are suggesting that I’m actually saying those things (e.g. not the generic “you”), then you are actively and deliberately misrepresenting what I’ve said.

Seemingly.

My arguments in that thread backed up some of the points in the article which you are interested in writing a reply to. It would likely be a good idea to see further evidence before writing in opposition, no?

That seems like a fair summary.

Are you familiar with the “nihil obstat”?

Well, let’s see the benefits of a college education. Let’s see you identify the plainly visible fallacies that you used in your comments. (Try to resist the cognitive biases opposing such a goal.)

Did you not read my reply to you? Why not respond to my points there? Is it easier to say the above to deflect from having to respond to those points? Do I have to demonstrate the value of a college education by explaining basic logic to a graduate?
Can you please do us a favor and show us what logical fallacies are.committed? I for one would.really like.to know. This is a serious request.

Maybe those who are committing these fallacies in their argument would benefit in learning basic logic.

It does.not do any good to say that a poster is committing logical fallacies and refuse to elaborate. I mean this in a humble non-sarcastic manner.
 
I’m not really sure what’s made Catholic fertility so pathetic in the west. The more I think about it, I’m persuaded to say that it’s contraception rather than careerism.

I would be against going to college (for men and women) based on two factors: one, it’s often not worth the money and time expended, and two, most colleges, even putatively catholic ones, are full to the brim with dogmatic professors preaching atheism and scientism and a whole bunch of other modern heresies who are bent on disabusing their naive students of their faith. Now granted I would be hopeful that with reason such dogmatic and totalitarian professors could be replaced by a new generation of rational Catholic students who rise up to take their spot, but what happens much more often is instead the student loses their faith, so I would think about avoiding sending my kids there because of that.
 
Can you please do us a favor and show us what logical fallacies are.committed? I for one would.really like.to know. This is a serious request.

Maybe those who are committing these fallacies in their argument would benefit in learning basic logic.

It does.not do any good to say that a poster is committing logical fallacies and refuse to elaborate. I mean this in a humble non-sarcastic manner.
Believe it or not, when pursuing my B.A. in Philosophy, I actually majored in Logic, Aristotelian logic, no less.😊 (While I was not taught by Aristotle himself, it seems so long ago that my professor probably was.:D)

Anyway, one of the “isms” I rememeber is contarianism, which can be a philosphy of life or sometimes just a technique in debating.

Here’s just a snippet from a more recent magazine article:

‘Sometimes you argue back, thinking you’re defending your rights and leading to a good outcome for yourself, but all the other person wants is attention for their position. Even if you resolve issue A, issue B will follow and then C and D. You have to ask yourself if it is more about the process than about resolving an issue. The way to extinguish their behaviour, if you can’t live with it, is by ignoring it rather than reinforcing it.

www.psychologies.co.uk/self/three-cheers-for-contrarians.html

.
 
57thDimension,

I am trying to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are actually interested in an honest debate but you are making that a very difficult position to hold. You have blasted many people for presenting strawman arguments, yet, when I asked you about the argument in question to make sure I am not constructing a strawman and am correctly understanding the argument (which is necessary for a profitable discussion) you proceeded to ignore my question and instead write a scathing post about how nobody on here understands logic or how to argue.

On to the argument. As you have agreed, it essentially goes like this:

Premise 1: College leads women to take up a career
Premise 2: Women who have careers work while married
Premise 3: Women who work while married will sin through having too few children
Conclusion: Attending College leads women to sin through having too few children.

Now, if you believe this is an incorrect summary of the bloggers argument I would very much appreciate you giving me your breakdown of the argument instead. I have tried not only to understand the blogger’s arguments, but to make sure that you agree with me that these are in fact the arguments in question which I have agreed to write against. I have done all that I can no my end to ensure I am not creating any strawmen, so, even if you believe the above is not correct, please do not accuse me of constructing a strawman.

As for the above argument (assuming this is a correct representation of the blogger’s argument)

Premise 1: In this instance I believe the blogger has his cause and effect reversed. It is not college that creates a desire for a career (ie a way of taking care of yourself) but a desire for a career that often leads women to go to college. (I say “pften” because it is by no means the only thing that leads women to attend college. I attended college for the sake of further developing myself, intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually, and found my own college experience to be extremely beneficial to me in all of these ways even though it was lacking in the career developing aspect). Therefore the term “college is not really applicable in this argument, and, assuming the rest of the argument holds up, the conclusion must end up being " a desire for a career leads women to sin through having too few children”.

Premise 2: This is certainly not universally true, I have heard of many people who have left their jobs to be SAHM’s and take care of their kids. However, the blogger in question does not give us any information by which we can judge just how likely this is to occur, so, at present, this is just an unsubstantiated claim the value of which is unknown. Not really the best premise to rely upon in an argument.

Premise 3: This seems to be the crux of the issue at hand. I will again submit that it is clear that this is not universally true. I know women of whom this is not true, therefore, by definition, it is not universally true. I will even go further, to posit a distinction which will, in part, explain why this is so. Despite the blogger’s assumption that all women who work will place their career above their family and having kids (which is simply an unsubstantiated claim, again, not really of much value in a logical argument) this is just not the case. It also seems to be true that whether or not this is the case depends on the reason a woman desires a career. If she desires a career for the sake of the career itself she is more likely to fall into the trap of using contraception or unreasonably denying relations to her husband (abusing NFP). If, however, she sees a career as a means to an end, the end being the good of her family, she is not likely going to put the career above her children, current or future. The blogger, however, not only presents us with an unsubstantiated assumption, he lumps all women who desire a career together and treats them as though they were the same, and, in the process fails to make this very important distinction. Again, really not the way to make a good, logically sound, argument.

Conclusion: well, from having followed the various premises and examining their flaws I would say the more correct conclusion to draw is in fact “Some women who desire a career for their own sake will go to college, get married, and put their career before their family, sinning in the process either by using contraception or abusing NFP”

This conclusion hardly supports the bloggers claim that women ought not to go to college. Honestly, is it really any wonder that people have been dismissing him and his arguments as silly (and so causing you to accuse them of strawmen and ad hominems) when his argument rests so much on failed logic itself that there is not one premise of it which holds up under scrutiny?
 
facepalm

Some of the people on here: your “logic” undermines your views.* Please, do yourselves a favor and learn about logic. It’ll make debating a point that much easier (and maybe even enjoyable) for all involved.**
I’m quite familiar with logic and rhetoric, thank you. I’m not too sure that you are. You do seem to know the names of some more common logical fallacies, but beyond that?

Whether on the high school level, the college level or beyond, I have never witnessed a debate in which one participant repeatedly asserted that his opponent was committing a long list of logical fallacies and never explained why something was fallacious. And I have certainly never seen this rather bizarre tactic that you have employed so often: the assertion that an opponent is committing a logical fallacy and a subsequent demand that he name the fallacy and describe it to you as if you were his grade school teacher. If I had ever witnessed such a thing, it would be tough to take that person seriously.

You continue to frame my requests for elucidation about your assertions as admissions to my ignorance in regards to the name and nature of common logical fallacies. That is not what I have been asking. I’m confident that you know that.

I have focused on your assertion that I have been building strawmen for the following reason: if we don’t even agree about the thesis of the article, then further discussion is meaningless. Further, we’re definitely not going to come to any agreement on the matter and that is **solely **because you obstinately refuse to explain why you think that such-and-such is a strawman. I would expect an expert on logic and rhetroic to understand that very simple, very basic point.

For the reasons stated above, I am now through with you. I urge everyone else here to stop wasting their time with you as well.
 
You are considering leaving a religion that is thousands of years old because of one website that you don’t like?
Classic sign of looking for excuses to do something selfish. :doh2:
 
I

I would be against going to college (for men and women) based on two factors: one, it’s often not worth the money and time expended
I absolutely agree with this. There are way too many college graduates working as cashiers and not nearly enough young people learning skilled trades.
 
The lesson here is that what is discussed in the classroom is often not applicable outside the classroom.

Logic and economics are two disciplines that are of questionable value in the real world. You can define your parameters, follow all sorts of principled constructs, etc. and it doesn’t amount to much when the rubber hits the road. Whether you’re an elite Vatican theologian, or chairman of the Federal Reserve, real life has a way of gumming up the best of intentions.

A group of social scientists is walking through a forest. Suddenly, a sinkhole opens up right in front of them and they all tumble in. The walls are too steep and too high for them to climb out. As they sit in a circle to ponder their fate, the Economist stands up and says, “Assume a ladder…”

It’s the same with Logic. It works fine when you’re programming a computer. But it has little application when you’re talking about human life. People aren’t rational. We don’t live our lives based on what logic tells us. That’s how it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be.

So Logic can be entertaining, and a lot of people have fun with it. But that’s about as far as it goes unless you’re using it for something useful, like creating bitcoins or Angry Birds apps.
 
I’m quite familiar with logic and rhetoric, thank you. I’m not too sure that you are. You do seem to know the names of some more common logical fallacies, but beyond that?

Whether on the high school level, the college level or beyond, I have never witnessed a debate in which one participant repeatedly asserted that his opponent was committing a long list of logical fallacies and never explained why something was fallacious. And I have certainly never seen this rather bizarre tactic that you have employed so often: the assertion that an opponent is committing a logical fallacy and a subsequent demand that he name the fallacy and describe it to you as if you were his grade school teacher. If I had ever witnessed such a thing, it would be tough to take that person seriously.

You continue to frame my requests for elucidation about your assertions as admissions to my ignorance in regards to the name and nature of common logical fallacies. That is not what I have been asking. I’m confident that you know that.

I have focused on your assertion that I have been building strawmen for the following reason: if we don’t even agree about the thesis of the article, then further discussion is meaningless. Further, we’re definitely not going to come to any agreement on the matter and that is **solely **because you obstinately refuse to explain why you think that such-and-such is a strawman. I would expect an expert on logic and rhetroic to understand that very simple, very basic point.

For the reasons stated above, I am now through with you. I urge everyone else here to stop wasting their time with you as well.
👍

I’ve judged debates at my college for the past 3 years, and I agree completely with this post.

“If you were blind, you would have no guilt, but since you say “I see”, your guilt remains.”

Over and out, 57D. I’m praying for you. 🙂
 
It’s the same with Logic. It works fine when you’re programming a computer. But it has little application when you’re talking about human life. People aren’t rational. We don’t live our lives based on what logic tells us. That’s how it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be.

So Logic can be entertaining, and a lot of people have fun with it. But that’s about as far as it goes unless you’re using it for something useful, like creating bitcoins or Angry Birds apps.
I’m thinking Dr. Spock would disagree.
 
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