Catholics View of Election

[fellside]

I’m curious as to what the current Catholic view of election is. I know that there have been Catholics, like Augustine, who affirmed election, but there are also many who have denied it.

In my most recent discussions with Catholics, it seems that they think Chrisitans can lose their salvation. But this runs right in the face of God’s sovereign election. If God chose us before the foundation of the world, then how would it be possible to lose that salvation?

Colossians 3:12
“Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassion, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience.”

Romans 8:29-30
“For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.”

Matthew 11:27
“All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”

John 6:44
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.”

Romans 9:22-23
“What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory.”

Also: Eph. 1:11, Eph. 2, 1 Peter 1:1-3

These verses all seem to show that God has chosen his elect, before the foundation of the world. So what do you guys think?

 

[sara888]

---

I’m curious as to what the current Catholic view of election is. I know that there have been Catholics, like Augustine, who affirmed election, but there are also many who have denied it.

In my most recent discussions with Catholics, it seems that they think Chrisitans can lose their salvation. But this runs right in the face of God’s sovereign election. If God chose us before the foundation of the world, then how would it be possible to lose that salvation?

Colossians 3:12
"Put on then, as God’s chosen ones

**, holy and beloved, compassion, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience."

Romans 8:29-30
“For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.”

Matthew 11:27
“All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”

John 6:44
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.”

Romans 9:22-23
“What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory.”

Also: Eph. 1:11, Eph. 2, 1 Peter 1:1-3

These verses all seem to show that God has chosen his elect, before the foundation of the world. So what do you guys think?

God indeed offers salvation to all men, and not just a particular group that He has previously selected (John 3:16; 1 Timothy 2:4 “who desires all men to be saved”; 2:6 “who gave Himself as a ransom for all”; Titus 2:11 “For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men”).

Why would Jesus have the gospel preached to all creation (Mark 16:16; Matthew 28:19), if God has already decided who will be saved and this has nothing to do with their response to God or His truth?

Why would God give definite conditions for salvation, if His eternal choice of particular sinners unto salvation was not based upon any foreseen act or response on the part of those selected, but was based solely on His own good pleasure and sovereign will. Why then all the commands to “believe” (John 3:16; Mark 16:16; Hebrews 11:6); repent (Luke 13:1-3; Acts 17:30; 2:38; 2 Corinthians 7:10-11); confess (Romans 10:9-10); be baptized (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; 1 Peter 3:21), and live a life of faithfulness (Hebrews 5:9

Why is God waiting for men to come to repentance, if repentance has nothing to do with one’s salvation? (2 Peter 3:9). Remember, this is not the repentance of the predestined, for God saves people without any consideration of their future response. ???

AngelJan**

 

[sara888]

**King Saul was chosen by God Himself to be king over Israel (1 Samuel 10:1; 24), in fact the Holy Spirit even came upon him (10:10), a situation in which Calvinists would be forced to concede proves that God elected him for salvation.

Yet Saul is rejected and cast off, not because God had eternally determined that he would be lost, but rather because he rejected the Word of the Lord (1 Samuel 15:23). Here is an elect man, whom the Holy Spirit comes upon, whom God ends up rejecting…

AngelJan**

 

[fellside]

God indeed offers salvation to all men, and not just a particular group that He has previously selected (John 3:16; 1 Timothy 2:4 “who desires all men to be saved”; 2:6 “who gave Himself as a ransom for all”; Titus 2:11 “For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men”)
You jumped to an unnecessary conclusion. While it is true that five point calvinists affirm limited atonement, I do not. I do not beleive limited atonement is a necessary conclusion of election.

I too think that Christ has died for the world and that his gift of salvation is offered to all, but only those whom God convicts will come to him. Only those whom he draws (John 6:44). And those whom he draws, he will raise on the last day.

Yes God desires salvation for all men, but not all men are saved. Unless you are a universalist, you must agree with that. So there are two possible conclusions:

1. God desires his purpose more than the salvation of all men.
2. God desires to see men choose him first, more than the salvation of all men.

****Why would Jesus have the gospel preached to all creation (Mark 16:16; Matthew 28:19), if God has already decided who will be saved and this has nothing to do with their response to God or His truth? ****

In the same way, why would an all-knowing, foreknowing God tell us to preach to people that he knows will not accept him? The answer is, that we do not know who will accept, but it is our job to proclaim the gospel to all men.

Why would God give definite conditions for salvation, if His eternal choice of particular sinners unto salvation was not based upon any foreseen act or response on the part of those selected, but was based solely on His own good pleasure and sovereign will. Why then all the commands to “believe” (John 3:16; Mark 16:16; Hebrews 11:6); repent (Luke 13:1-3; Acts 17:30; 2:38; 2 Corinthians 7:10-11); confess (Romans 10:9-10); be baptized (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38; 1 Peter 3:21), and live a life of faithfulness (Hebrews 5:9

Faith is still the means by which we accpet his gift of salvation. You are looking at election as though it is fatalism.

Why is God waiting for men to come to repentance, if repentance has nothing to do with one’s salvation? (2 Peter 3:9). Remember, this is not the repentance of the predestined, for God saves people without any consideration of their future response. ???

AngelJan

I have no idea who taught you about election… but they were seriously on something. Where did you get the idea that Calvinists don’t believe that repentence is necessary for salvation? You’ve just thrown about four strawman at an argument without addressing the scripture provided.

 

[fellside]

**King Saul was chosen by God Himself to be king over Israel (1 Samuel 10:1; 24), in fact the Holy Spirit even came upon him (10:10), a situation in which Calvinists would be forced to concede proves that God elected him for salvation.

Yet Saul is rejected and cast off, not because God had eternally determined that he would be lost, but rather because he rejected the Word of the Lord (1 Samuel 15:23). Here is an elect man, whom the Holy Spirit comes upon, whom God ends up rejecting…

AngelJan**

John 6:37
“All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.”

Saul was chosen in a different way. He was chosen in the same way that Pharoah was chosen. It was not an election to salvation. Read again the verse in Romans 8:29-30, and notice how it contradicts your view.

 

[sara888]

**

John 6:37
“All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.”

Saul was chosen in a different way. He was chosen in the same way that Pharoah was chosen. It was not an election to salvation. Read again the verse in Romans 8:29-30, and notice how it contradicts your view.

You must read all of the gospels to understand Gods word.

If grace is defined as something given to us that we do not deserve, then what could possibly make us worthy of this grace while the rest of humanity goes to hell, with no chance at receiving it?

But it is because of His grace that all men might have the opportunity to get saved, as God is “not willing that any should perish, but that all might come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9). And why “go into all the world and preach the gospel” and “compel them to come in”, if they are all predestined to heaven or hell. If that is the case we can just leave it all up to God to draw in the elect, and all others don’t matter since they are going to hell any, which cannot be changed. ???

If man truly does NOT have a freewill and God ordered everything that comes to pass, then God becomes the author of all the evil in the world, an idea that we must reject (1 John 1:5; James 1:13-15; 17).

There are a number of places in Scripture, where God commanded something, gave a decree, and what was decreed (because of human repentance) did not come to pass (Jonah 3:4,10; 2 Kings 20:1, 5-6; especially note 1 Samuel 23:11-12). Had David remained at Keilah, Saul would have gone there and the men of the city would have betrayed David, but none of this happened because David left. Hence circumstances (human free will), and not immutable decrees or Fate, controlled this event. Rather than ordaining everything that happens, God reminds us that the future is flexible and that our choices today, whether good or bad, can alter our future (Jeremiah 18:7-10).**

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I’m curious as to what the current Catholic view of election is. I know that there have been Catholics, like Augustine, who affirmed election, but there are also many who have denied it.

In my most recent discussions with Catholics, it seems that they think Chrisitans can lose their salvation. But this runs right in the face of God’s sovereign election. If God chose us before the foundation of the world, then how would it be possible to lose that salvation?

Colossians 3:12
“Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassion, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience.”

Romans 8:29-30
“For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.”

Matthew 11:27
“All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”

John 6:44
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.”

Romans 9:22-23
“What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory.”

Also: Eph. 1:11, Eph. 2, 1 Peter 1:1-3

These verses all seem to show that God has chosen his elect, before the foundation of the world. So what do you guys think?

The RCC does not really emphasise it - a great pity, IMO; especially as election is explicitly taught in both Testaments. It is a very important reality, both because it throws a flood of light upon the character of God, & because it is closely related to the doctrines of Creation & Providence.​

Though connected with predestination and final perseverance, it isn’t the same as either of them.

As for MO - I am pretty much a Calvinist. in a Catholic framework. At least on those issues, Calvinism is very close to the Augustinian & Thomist schools of thought on the subject. The one thing I don’t accept (yet) is reprobation in the Calvinist sense, because ISTM that it owes more to logic than revelation.

OTOH, ISTM Calvin was absolutely right to insist that election is unconditional. There is a school of thought in the CC which maintains that election is conditioned by God’s foreknowledge of our merits - this STM entirely unChristian.

God is of course absolutely sovereign - if there is any created thing, God is its Sovereign Lord and Master in all respects always. There are not, nor can be, nor will be, any exceptions to this of any kind whatever; not even in principle or theory

As for losing salvation - I think there are two truths which both need to be affirmed:

1. God will not and could not allow His elect to be lost
2. Man is free to resist God.

I think we are in the presence of a paradox. It does not follow that because we may not be able to reconcile the preservation of all the elect with the freedom of the human will, God can’t - God is not limited. but is infinite in Wisdom, Goodness, Power, & Love.

I think we need to be most careful in dealing with these matters; “Thy judgements are a great deep” - as St. Paul says at the close of Romans 11, they are “unsearchable”. ##

 

[Hello_Operator]

I believe the Lutheran position (at least LCMS) is something like this:

We have no free will regarding God. We can’t “choose” Him or “accept” Him. We are completely dead and powerless in our trespasses. So God chooses us. BUT He does not condemn anyone, because 1 Timothy tells us that God desires all men to be saved. How does that work, you ask? Paradox, I suppose. We can’t see how it works out, but we’ll understand in Paradise. Maybe that seems like a cop-out, but it’s just taking the Bible and what it says and laying it out on the table without trying to explain it away.

So how can one be assured of their salvation? By looking at Jesus on the cross and realizing He is your salvation, that He died and rose so you could be clothed in His righteousness. This casts out all doubt the devil throws your way, because there is no greater love than that. And that’s how I’m sure.

 

[jimmy]

I too think that Christ has died for the world and that his gift of salvation is offered to all, but only those whom God convicts will come to him. Only those whom he draws (John 6:44). And those whom he draws, he will raise on the last day.

You canceled out your first part with your second part. If Christ died for all then you can’t restrict it by saying He only died for those He cinvicted. He convicted all

 

[Helper]

I have a suggestion; quit trying to figure out God and just follow him.

(Matthew 7:21) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I have a suggestion; quit trying to figure out God and just follow him.

(Matthew 7:21) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”

Hi,
This is what upsets me is that are so many people out there that call themselves christian because they belong to a denom that believes in Christ, but how many of them are truly missing the boat. There are so so many church goers in every denom that just dont have a clue about what it truly means to be saved and go to heaven. I blame our preachers/priests/ministers–etc. they are teaching their congregations a waterd down gospel. I think they are afraid to offend the people. Our society is so politically correct that God is all the way at the bottom. I say tough–if you cant handle God’s word you better get on your knees and pray
Sorry for the rant I think I might even be off topic. Sorry Im done

Peace
ALLFORHIM

 

[El_Catolico]

There is allowed a divergence of opinion on this topic. Catholic theologians (especially the Thomists) have a very high view of election.

In my most recent discussions with Catholics, it seems that they think Chrisitans can lose their salvation. But this runs right in the face of God’s sovereign election. If God chose us before the foundation of the world, then how would it be possible to lose that salvation?

The question is not how is it possible for us to lose our salvation, but why God allows some of us to persevere and others to fall away.

 

[Helper]

Hi,
This is what upsets me is that are so many people out there that call themselves christian because they belong to a denom that believes in Christ, but how many of them are truly missing the boat. There are so so many church goers in every denom that just dont have a clue about what it truly means to be saved and go to heaven. I blame our preachers/priests/ministers–etc. they are teaching their congregations a waterd down gospel. I think they are afraid to offend the people. Our society is so politically correct that God is all the way at the bottom. I say tough–if you cant handle God’s word you better get on your knees and pray
Sorry for the rant I think I might even be off topic. Sorry Im done

Peace
ALLFORHIM

Amen!!!

 

[Mathetes007]

I’m curious as to what the current Catholic view of election is. I know that there have been Catholics, like Augustine, who affirmed election, but there are also many who have denied it.

In my most recent discussions with Catholics, it seems that they think Chrisitans can lose their salvation. But this runs right in the face of God’s sovereign election. If God chose us before the foundation of the world, then how would it be possible to lose that salvation?

Colossians 3:12
“Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassion, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience.”

Romans 8:29-30
“For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.”

Matthew 11:27
“All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”

John 6:44
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.”

Romans 9:22-23
“What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory.”

Also: Eph. 1:11, Eph. 2, 1 Peter 1:1-3

These verses all seem to show that God has chosen his elect, before the foundation of the world. So what do you guys think?

I think you might find this article on predestination helpful concerning your question on election.

cin.org/users/james/files/loss.htm

 

[jimmy]

In my most recent discussions with Catholics, it seems that they think Chrisitans can lose their salvation. But this runs right in the face of God’s sovereign election. If God chose us before the foundation of the world, then how would it be possible to lose that salvation?

The Lord bought them but they still can deny Him.

1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there shall be among you lying teachers, who shall bring in sects of perdition, and deny the Lord who bought them: bringing upon themselves swift destruction. [2Peter2]

You place too high of an emphasis on election and you ignore free will. Here is what Hebrews says,

26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries. [Hebrews10]

Reading this you can see that a man can lose his salvation. He came to the truth but then there was no salvation left for him when he continued in his sins after his conversion.

 

[petra]

I’m curious as to what the current Catholic view of election is. I know that there have been Catholics, like Augustine, who affirmed election, but there are also many who have denied it.

In my most recent discussions with Catholics, it seems that they think Chrisitans can lose their salvation. But this runs right in the face of God’s sovereign election. If God chose us before the foundation of the world, then how would it be possible to lose that salvation?

Colossians 3:12
“Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassion, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience.”

Romans 8:29-30
“For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.”

Matthew 11:27
“All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”

John 6:44
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.”

Romans 9:22-23
“What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory.”

Also: Eph. 1:11, Eph. 2, 1 Peter 1:1-3

These verses all seem to show that God has chosen his elect, before the foundation of the world. So what do you guys think?

Those whom God predestined will persevere to the end and die in a state of grace. There is no difficulty with this in Catholic doctrine. It seems the real issue you wish to address is eternal security (once saved always saved).

It is risky to cite isolated verses to prove doctrine because context is lost. John 6:44 does not imply that all who are drawn will be raised on the last day. Rather, in that discourse, Jesus is explaining to the crowd what the role of the Holy Trinity is in the salvation of men. In other words, in verse 44 He was explaining that the Father does the drawing and He will do the raising. (In verse 63, He says that it is the Spirit who gives life.)

Ideally, those who are drawn will also be raised, but since this verse is not intended to be a comprehensive treatise on the doctrine of salvation, the reality that some who are drawn will fall away is not discussed. Again, this is because the emphasis of the section is the role of the persons of the Trinity, with special emphasis on Jesus’ role because He was perceived as being a mere man—the son of Joseph.

The whole of scripture makes this very clear that it is possible to lose one’s salvation.

 

[fellside]

Some things were assumed of me in this thread that simply are not true.

1. I believe that Christ died for the whole world.
2. I believe that man has free will according to his nature. In the same way that a man doesn’t have the free will to turn into a pig, sinners do not have a desire for Christ. But we still have free will. When a sinner murders someone, it isn’t because God made him do it.
3. I do not believe that everyone who claims to be a Christian, or everyone that prayed some prayer and walked down an aisle, is truely saved. I too believe that if someone does not follow Christ with their life, that they are lost. But I still believe “Once saved always saved” because those who fall away were never really His. They aren’t the elect.

Edit: Thanks for the information on the Catholic church’s view’s of election. It’s encouraging to see sound doctrine in other places.

 

[fellside]

I have a suggestion; quit trying to figure out God and just follow him.

So you would like me to commit idolatry? You would rather I worship a God that I know nothing about?

One of the greatest problems with Christians today is the lack of good theology. God didn’t give us his word so we could whipe our butts with it. We are to take it very seriously and meditate on it.

Do I think I have God figured out? Absolutely not. But it is every believers duty to grow closer to God and know him better.

 

[John_Henry]

I’m curious as to what the current Catholic view of election is. I know that there have been Catholics, like Augustine, who affirmed election, but there are also many who have denied it.

In my most recent discussions with Catholics, it seems that they think Chrisitans can lose their salvation. But this runs right in the face of God’s sovereign election. If God chose us before the foundation of the world, then how would it be possible to lose that salvation?

Colossians 3:12
“Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassion, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience.”

Romans 8:29-30
“For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.”

Matthew 11:27
“All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”

John 6:44
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.”

Romans 9:22-23
“What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory.”

Also: Eph. 1:11, Eph. 2, 1 Peter 1:1-3

These verses all seem to show that God has chosen his elect, before the foundation of the world. So what do you guys think?

The thing about this is, St. Augustine, while believing in election, also believed Christians could lose their state of grace. So, the two, at least according to him, were not in opposition.

Try this on for size:

catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9309fea1.asp

 

[jimmy]

1. I do not believe that everyone who claims to be a Christian, or everyone that prayed some prayer and walked down an aisle, is truely saved. I too believe that if someone does not follow Christ with their life, that they are lost. But I still believe “Once saved always saved” because those who fall away were never really His. They aren’t the elect.

The problem with that is that Hebrews specifically says they came to the truth. They were Christians in the full sense of the word, but they fell back into sin.