Catholics View of Election

[sara888]

Some things were assumed of me in this thread that simply are not true.

1. I believe that Christ died for the whole world.
2. I believe that man has free will according to his nature. In the same way that a man doesn’t have the free will to turn into a pig, sinners do not have a desire for Christ. But we still have free will. When a sinner murders someone, it isn’t because God made him do it.
3. I do not believe that everyone who claims to be a Christian, or everyone that prayed some prayer and walked down an aisle, is truely saved. I too believe that if someone does not follow Christ with their life, that they are lost. But I still believe “Once saved always saved” because those who fall away were never really His. They aren’t the elect.

Edit: Thanks for the information on the Catholic church’s view’s of election. It’s encouraging to see sound doctrine in other places.

**Fellside, No where in the bible does it suggest that a Christian CANNOT fall away or walk away from their faith… People have in the bible and still do fall from grace. To suggest they never were saved to begin with lacks logic and is unbiblical.

Lets see what Jesus says about his followers.

Matthew 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

Matthew 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended…which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

John 8:34-35 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin(not a son). [35] And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

John 14:21-23 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. [22] Judas saith unto him, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? [23] Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

So, one can have faith yet fall away.!!! it is quite clear according to Christ**.

Jan

 

[Catholic_Dude]

The problem with that is that Hebrews specifically says they came to the truth. They were Christians in the full sense of the word, but they fell back into sin.

You remind me of one of my favorites:
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. 2nd Peter 2

 

[bibleapologist]

So far in this thread I havn’t read anything more than the age old arguments regarding election, predestination, limited atonement, and irresistable grace. The truth of the matter is, by our own intellecualism our finite minds cannot understand an infinite God with infinte attributes, Who abides in eternity (Romans 11:33).

So anything we do understand about God or His motives will have to come through a divine revelation… otherwise it is just philosophy. Each individual saved person who is indwelled with the Holy Spirit can recieve revelation from God (Acts 13:9).

A revelation from God is not some spooky (name removed by moderator)ut of knowledge that we recieve… but a glimpse of reality from God’s perspective. Therefore, if we are to understand God’s motives along the lines of God inspired scripture… it is also going to take a revelation of God’s perspective inspired by His Holy Spirit. Just like Moses when He went to the Mountain of God (Horeb) in Exodus 3:1 to recieve a glimpse of God’s perspective on the captivity of Israel in Egypt.

The author of Ecclesiastes had a unique insight (revelation) pertaining to the perspective of God. And he (probably Solomon) had some specific insight pertaining to this particular subject.

I have written an article on the subject of predestination which can be viewed at my website here…

www.gideonsword.net

 

[havemercy]

That article provides some sober (name removed by moderator)ut, I think. However, I was disappointed to read this. Nonetheless, I think we can agree to…Agree! On this point at least.

Peace be with you,

 

[petra]

I do not believe that everyone who claims to be a Christian, or everyone that prayed some prayer and walked down an aisle, is truely saved. I too believe that if someone does not follow Christ with their life, that they are lost. But I still believe “Once saved always saved” because those who fall away were never really His. They aren’t the elect.

Fellside, do you believe that you can know if you have eternal life (1 John 5:13)? If so, how do you know?

Consider the following scenario:
Bill responds to an invitation to receive Christ. He goes forward during an altar call and prays the sinner’s prayer with the pastor. Afterward, the pastor shares 1 John 5:13 with Bill and tells him that he is saved for all eternity and he can know that because God tells us we can have that assurance. He warns Bill not to let doubts creep in and to stand firm in that assurance. So Bill feels assured and believes that he is saved for all eternity. Some years later, Bill drifted away from God. He entered a lifestyle of immorality, got hooked on drugs, and cheated people in business. There didn’t seem to be any indication that he was being convicted by the Holy Spirit. He loved his lifestyle and didn’t have any intention of turning from it.

I’m guessing you would say that such a person was never really saved and is not among the elect. A real Christian could never do those things—or at least for very long without being tormented by conviction. So given that none of us know the future, how can anyone have assurance of eternal life? In the once-saved, always-saved paradigm, assurance can only be retrospective, looking back at one’s life at the moment of death. I don’t think that is what John intended when he said we can have assurance.

Catholic theology allows true assurance of salvation. Granted, because we do not know the future, we cannot presume to say definitively that we will persevere to the end and die in a state of grace. We pray for the grace to always follow Christ. However, we can have full assurance that we are PRESENTLY in a state of grace—that eternal life presently dwells in us. Catholics can KNOW they are saved right now.

However, Calvinists can only have a retrospective assurance at the moment of death. Tragic and unbiblical.

 

[petra]

So anything we do understand about God or His motives will have to come through a divine revelation… otherwise it is just philosophy. Each individual saved person who is indwelled with the Holy Spirit can recieve revelation from God (Acts 13:9).

Acts 13:9 is your proof text for the assertion that we can receive personal revelation from God?

No, what we understand about God comes to us through the Word, who is Jesus Christ.

 

[bibleapologist]

Acts 13:9 is your proof text for the assertion that we can receive personal revelation from God?

First, Acts 13:9 is (a) proof verse that we can recieve personal revelation from God. Here are a few others…

Luke 1:67 Zecherias propheied; Acts 4:8 Peter spoke according to what was revealed to him by the Holy Ghost; Acts 4:20-31 The Apostles spoke boldly according to the revelation of truth they were given; Acts 9:17-20 Paul (Saul) preached the gospel after he had received the Holy Ghost;

And apart from those examples, the apostle Paul had this to say on the subject…

1Co 2:9-13 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

As for your second statement

No, what we understand about God comes to us through the Word, who is Jesus Christ

Your right… and if you believe that Jesus is the third person of the Trinity, you also cannot argue that the Holy Spirit and Jesus are one (Col. 3:16; John 10:30).

We, according to Peter, have a more sure word of prophecy than the early church writers. That more sure word of prophecy is the Holy Ghost which dwells within each born-again believer. (2 Peter 1:19-21). NOT that we each are to take the liberty to interpret scripture individually… But these truths are revealed to us by God.

According to the previously cited texts, all those who are considered children of God should be indwelt with the Holy Spirit, Who reveals spiritual truths “comparing spiritual things with spiritual”. If you truly are a child of God, you WILL have the Holy Spirit… which is Jesus according the doctrine of the trinity (2 Cor. 1:22; Eph 1:13; Eph 4:30).

If you don’t have that Holy Spirit of promise referenced in Eph. 1:13. You can find out how to obtain it HERE.

Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be **strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what [is] the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; **
Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

John
www.gideonsword.net

 

[bibleapologist]

Sorry, in my previous post I said “We, according to Peter, have a more sure word of prophecy than the early church writers.” I should have wrote…

We, according to Peter, have a more sure word of prophecy than the “old testament prophets”.

John
www.gideonsword.net

 

[Catholic_Dude]

John
www.gideonsword.net

I read your article on “predestination” and to be honest it didnt say anything nor refute anything.
gideonsword.net/articles/BibleDoctrineandTheology/BDTarticles/Side_stepping_predestination.htm

p.s. your page talks about “eternal security”, just so you know I was protestant for about 15 years and believed that but now Im Catholic and I encourage others to become Catholic…according to you I must be saved regardless of what I do from now on…

 

[bibleapologist]

I read your article on “predestination” and to be honest it didnt say anything nor refute anything.
gideonsword.net/articles/BibleDoctrineandTheology/BDTarticles/Side_stepping_predestination.htm

p.s. your page talks about “eternal security”, just so you know I was protestant for about 15 years and believed that but now Im Catholic and I encourage others to become Catholic…according to you I must be saved regardless of what I do from now on…

My article on predestination has been posted on and linked to from many Baptist websites… so it must say “something”. But I don’t expect everyone to be helped by it. And that article is not inteded to refute anything… but to expose an apostate view of predestination, and compare it to Biblical “foreknowledge” by God.

I am a little confused about the last portion of your post But, I will say this, I am not doubting your soul’s condition. If you once believed the gospel, and you have been saved, it doesn’t matter what you believe now you can NEVER lose or negate your salvation, neither by accident or ignorance (John 10:29) . So, to say you have changed your stance concerning salvation does not mean you are not saved… it only means you are no longer an effective witness for Christ.

This article explains what is wrong with the Catholic view of Salvation… if you are not saved you won’t find the truth in Catholic teaching. If you are saved, you have been led away with the error of the wicked.

2Pe 3:16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him [be] glory both now and for ever. Amen.

 

[John_Henry]

This article explains what is wrong with the Catholic view of Salvation

From that article:

The “transformation” that this author is referring to is understood by Catholic teachers to be a metaphorical transformation, this is not a true transformation.

Uh, no it’s not. It is a real transformation. It is justification and sanctification. It is the renewal of the inward man. You may disagree that these things happen in baptism, but it is false to claim that Catholics believe the tranformation to be “metaphorical”, which is to say, “not a true” one. We believe it to be very true.

Me thinks you should hang around these forums to pick up on the Catholic faith before you attempt to refute it.

(And sorry, I don’t have time to read the whole thing. I will say, though, that on a brief scanning, it is nothing more than the same old arguments about how 1500 years of people misunderstood the scriptures, and all of a sudden some guy who didn’t like someone else’ authority decided he had got it right, mixed with that ever-present attitude of imputing evil motives to one’s Catholic opponents (e.g., intentional deception, lying))

 

[bibleapologist]

Uh, no it’s not. It is a real transformation. It is justification and sanctification. It is the renewal of the inward man. You may disagree that these things happen in baptism, but it is false to claim that Catholics believe the tranformation to be “metaphorical”, which is to say, “not a true” one.

Justifictation and Sanctification are both actions by God, and those actions represent God’s attitude toward man, they do not necessarily indicate “transformation”.

We become “justified” by God when we apply “faith” in Him, and His plan of atonement for sin (Acts 13:9; Romans 5:1).

We become “sanctified” or “set apart” when we are saved, and recieve the Holy Spirit (Romans 15:16).

Your statement quoted above indicates that you are trusting your state of “transformation”… not on a “real” identifiable new life that you personally have… but that because you were baptized according to the tenets of the Catholic Church… You must be transformed. The Catholic Church has told you that if you are baptized, you have persuaded God to view you as sanctified and justified rather than included in the world and condemned. Transformation cannot be equated with sanctification or justification.

You said…

We believe it to be very true.

That may very well be so… but it doesn’t make it true. If you had read the rest of the article, I made some statements at the end that are very pertinent to this point.

The anonymous author of that article at catholic.com, seemed to be trying to convince Catholics that they were “born-again”, by convincing them that the “transformation” is “from above”… insinuating that the transformation occurs “above”… in the mind of God and His intentions. The author seems to have sanctification and justification confused with transformation… which is a common mistake with the unskilled in the Word of God.

(By the way, my article points out the many mistakes that author made concerning the Bible and the Greek text; he/she earned the right to be called “unskilled in the Word of God”.)

John
www.gideonsword.net

 

[bibleapologist]

I have started a new thread since this conversation is going off topic.

The new thread is entitled “Are Catholics Born Again?”

 

[John_Henry]

I have started a new thread since this conversation is going off topic.

The new thread is entitled “Are Catholics Born Again?”

And I have answered you there.

 

[petra]

John, I’m going to go back to your original quote:

So anything we do understand about God or His motives will have to come through a divine revelation… otherwise it is just philosophy. Each individual saved person who is indwelled with the Holy Spirit can recieve revelation from God (Acts 13:9).

I believe in the gift of prophecy, and all of the spiritual gifts are a result of the Holy Spirit moving within us. But that is not what I see you saying above. You are incorrect that that which we know about God and His motives can only come through personal revelation and that anything other than that is just philosophy. That is heresy. We know about God and His motives through Jesus Christ, who passed the legacy of revelation to his apostles and has been preserved by the Church through the centuries.

 

[bibleapologist]

Petra,

You have quoted me out of context, although I did say…

“anything we understand about God or His motives can only come through personal revelation… otherwise it is just philosophy”

I did not say that the revelation I was referring to was a “special revelation” as you stated… or “prophecy” as is so falsely practiced among Charismatics today. But only that we cannot understand God or anything eternal except that it be revealed (the root of revelation) to us by God through the Holy Spirit.

I agree with you that

“never does the Holy Spirit reveal new information about God and His motives.”

God’s attributes have already been revealed in the Old and New Testament, God’s intentions have already been revealed in the scripture… God does not reveal new information about Himself or His motives today, but the Holy Spirit was given for man to understand those things which are “spiritual”… those things which are already revealed in the scripture, but, we can only see darkly now (1 Cor. 13:12), but soon we will see clearly.

You also said…

Some of the scriptures you cite have nothing to do with the point you are trying to make. Allegedy receiving special revelation from the Holy Spirit, you are merely espousing your own opinion.

Are you really prepared to claim that my previously quoted scripture has nothing to do with my arguement?..

1Co 2:9-13 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

You also said…

The Holy Spirit illuminates our heart and allows us to understand that which has been revealed by Christ. He leads and guides us personally.

This no different than what I have been saying… why has there been so much argument over that? Since you disagree with me so adamantly, the only conclusion I can make is that there is some difference of between our understanding of how Christ has revealed truth.

Maybe you could illuminate me… or give me some revelation as to your point of view in the exact method that Christ has revealed truth.

John

 

[bibleapologist]

I need to clarify myself. I said…

God’s intentions have already been revealed in the scripture… God does not reveal new information about Himself or His motives today

That is… God has already revealed His intentions pertaining to mankind as a whole, the fate of the world, and other particlular prophecied incidents. But God does guide and direct man by inspiration and revelation (revealing) in the life of that particular man.

John