Catholics viewpoint on the book of Revelation

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Luvtosew said:
It doesn’t mention the Rapture or the Second Coming once in its context. That’s a huge misconception RE: the book.

the rapture is in one of the gospels, and isn’t it Hahn that said it was about the mass, now I have never heard that from anyone else, I have heard others talk about the meaning of Revelation and I see nothing about it pertaining to Mass, have yet to find out why he feels that way. I believe in the rapture.
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Luvtosew. There is no such thing as a Rapture. That is a made up Protestant notion by a man named Darby. Please read The Rapture Trap by Paul Thigpen or Will Catholics be Left Behind by Carl Olson. Don’t get sucked in by this idea it is loaded with problems and the quotes Protestants use to try and prove a rapture actually say something completely different when taken in context.

Please read these to get you started:
catholic.com/quickquestions/do-catholics-believe-in-the-rapture
catholic.com/tracts/the-rapture

Also, you can go to Catholic Lighthouse Media and download or order Dr. Michael Barbers talk Unlocking the Book of Revelation for $3-4. It is a really good and entertaining talk that will teach you a lot.
 
DJK100 said:
Luvtosew. There is no such thing as a Rapture. That is a made up Protestant notion by a man named Darby. Please read The Rapture Trap by Paul Thigpen or Will Catholics be Left Behind by Carl Olson. Don’t get sucked in by this idea it is loaded with problems and the quotes Protestants use to try and prove a rapture actually say something completely different when taken in context.

Please read these to get you started:
catholic.com/quickquestions/do-catholics-believe-in-the-rapture
catholic.com/tracts/the-rapture

Also, you can go to Catholic Lighthouse Media and download or order Dr. Michael Barbers talk Unlocking the Book of Revelation for $3-4. It is a really good and entertaining talk that will teach you a lot.
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Most Protestants do not believe in “the rupture”, this is mostly relegated to fundamentalist evangelicals…they just seem to have a bigger megaphone! :okpeople:
 
DFWChristian said:
Howdy folks,

Greetings my fellow saints. It is great to know that we have faith in Jesus Christ and as a result we are saved.

I have a question. Why don’t Catholics believe the book of Revelation is nothing but alegory? I went to a Catholic church with a buddy of mine and there wasn’t much scripture presented which was pretty sad. Instead there were some nice stories that went a little long. So during these stories I picked up a Bible from the pew and read the introduction to Revelation and whoever wrote the summary said not to take the book literaly!

To discount scripture is a slap in the face of the alighty. That type of comment is something an athiest would say. Yes I know there are allegories in scripture, but to identify an entire book as not literal was very disappointing.

Have a blessed day in the Lord.
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My friend DFWChristian,

Please consider the following concepts:
Regarding why not to take the book literally
What if the complete literal interpretation of Revelation is only intended for one person?
Given the following verse:
[BIBLEDRB]Rev. 1: 3 Blessed is he, that readeth and heareth the words of this prophecy; and keepeth those things which are written in it; for the time is at hand.[/BIBLEDRB]
It can be interpreted that only one person will experience all of these on a literal level. Therefore all others will not experience the fullness of Revelations on a literal level. However, given that the sequence of events from the process of growing closer in union with the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ is quite constant from person to person, it is definitely allegorically applicable to all who attempt to grow in perfect union with Jesus Christ.

Regarding the discounting of God’s Word
Please note my friend, you are presented a very difficult challenge. One that I struggled on extremely deep levels and from various perspectives to overcome. Please consider the following:
Right now, God is allowing us to demonstrate our ability to freely choose obedience to earthly authority because He wants us to freely choose to love as He loves. He is giving us the opportunity to demonstrate that instead of protesting the authority, we will choose to learn and work with the authority’s perspective.
Since you are learning about Roman Catholicism, it is important to note that since Jesus Christ appointed Peter as the foundation of His Church, in doing so, He appointed the Papacy as the Head Authority of His Church.

Please consider, if you believe you are at a closer union with the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ and know and/or understand more of God’s Word than that of the Authorities of Roman Catholicism, then just as I was, you are presented with the challenges of Lucifer. The questions are: Will you strive to understand the perspective of Authority and help shed light on other interpretations?
or
Will you strive to protest the perspective of Authority by belittling their interpretations?
The consequences:
If you strive to understand the perspective and help shed light on other interpretations: recognize that you will have overcome the mindset of the fallen angel, you will have actively generated greater peace in our world, and you will be helping us come closer to doing God’s Will on earth as it is done in Heaven.
If you strive to protest the Authority and belittle the interpretation, you will only be prolonging the stress and strife in our world. You will be actively prolonging the united efforts of us as a team. And you will be discounting God’s Word on a far more grave level because you believe you are far more Truly Loving than others.

Thoughts?
 
Luvtosew said:
It doesn’t mention the Rapture or the Second Coming once in its context. That’s a huge misconception RE: the book.

the rapture is in one of the gospels, and isn’t it Hahn that said it was about the mass, now I have never heard that from anyone else, I have heard others talk about the meaning of Revelation and I see nothing about it pertaining to Mass, have yet to find out why he feels that way. I believe in the rapture.
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Scott Hahn is of the persuasion that the book of Revelation must first be looked at from the preterist view point before any part of the book of Revelation can be used to look into the future. The preterist view point basically contends that the prophesies in the book of Revelation all came to pass by the year 70A.D when Jerusalem fell. Scott believes you have to first look at the book from this perspective before you can see applications of the book in the future so he is not a true preterist in that the book only applies to around the time of 70A.D. It is all about multiple levels of meaning, but it makes sense that you have to understand the lower levels or most literal levels before you can understand the deeper meanings.

The theme of the mass in the book of Revelation is another thing he contends is a part of it. Starting from the beginning you have lots of imagery that resembles what you find at the mass and the prophesy in the book is similar to the mass. You the introduction, petitions, reading of the Word (the book with seven seals), that all lead up to the climax; the supper of the lamb (the Eucharist). If you listen to his tapes or read his book you can see all the tie ins which really are incredible.

There is also an element of sacramental language in the book. The book of Revelation is what convinced Hahn that there are 7 sacraments. This happened also because of an understanding of the idea of a covenant (which means to “seven” one’s self). Jesus came and formed a New Covenant with us and God literally “sevens” himself with the 7 sacraments that are avenues to his grace.
I have a question. Why don’t Catholics believe the book of Revelation is nothing but alegory?
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They don’t believe that. There is nothing that says it cannot be taken literally in Catholicism. I would bet Hahn reads it more literally than you even do to a point.
 
I don’t want to start anything here and I have no intent,

but when one reads the the bible and interprets it, isn’t it a fact that a person can see it to mean something that he wants it to mean, isn’t that why there are different interpretations of the same verses, so no offense to anyone at all, but what makes Dr. Hahn right and everyone else wrong about Revelation. I mean it can mean whatever one wants it to mean.
 
Luvtosew said:
I don’t want to start anything here and I have no intent,

but when one reads the the bible and interprets it, isn’t it a fact that a person can see it to mean something that he wants it to mean, isn’t that why there are different interpretations of the same verses, so no offense to anyone at all, but what makes Dr. Hahn right and everyone else wrong about Revelation. I mean it can mean whatever one wants it to mean.
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That is precisely why we have a Magisterium to guide us. There is an extreme danger to interpret scripture in light of our own personal prejudice. Based on our life experience, knowledge, understanding of scripture (great or small), we tend to read into it what we ‘believe’. In the end, it cannot mean ‘whatever one wants it to mean.’ It has to mean what God wanted it to mean.

So we have to trust in the Holy Spirit to guide us into that. All of us have to let God interpret scripture to us, which is why Lectio Divina is being pushed as such an important prayer tool.
 
I see so are you trying to tell me that Dr. Hahn is right because he is Catholic and everyone else is wrong? 🙂

I mean isn’t that what Dr. Hahn is doing, isn’t that what everyone is doing?

Also I have the 1970 NAB Bible and have read the prologue and I read it that the chruch feels it means that the chruch should remain true in the faith regardless of the prosecution it was facing from Rome and pagans and that Christ would come in his glory one day.🙂
 
Luvtosew said:
I see so are you trying to tell me that Dr. Hahn is right because he is Catholic and everyone else is wrong? 🙂

I mean isn’t that what Dr. Hahn is doing, isn’t that what everyone is doing?
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Is that what I said? No I don’t think Dr. Hahn is right just because he is Catholic. I think he’s right because he’s done his research. I have read his book “The Lamb’s Supper” on the topic, and can only say that it resonates with me personally. 🤷

As to if he is doing what ‘everyone else is doing’, do you mean is he interpreting it the same way the protestants are? Hardly. Dr. Hahn is using the church fathers and sacred Tradition to help guide his interpretation. That’s hardly the same as coming to a personal revelation on your own thoughts.
 
Luvtosew said:
He is asking about the book of Revelation which was Apostles Pauls revelation. He is right, the Church seldom discusses it, why it is not important is beyound me. Now I do see Scott Hahn had said it has to do with the Mass and host, don’t know how he came up with that. I don’t even think I know the Churchs posistion on end times, I don’t think the CC believes in the rapture, do they, I know they believe in the Final Judgement.
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The book of Revolation was written by St. John of Patmos. The would be St John, the Evangelist, the youngest of the 12 apostles. In his old age, he wrote Revolation when he was exiled to the island of Patmos.
 
Lots of ignorance here that I do not have the energy or time to respond to. It’s a shame so many of you are blinded by what a church tells you to think instead of using your brain to evaluate scripture. It’s not an allegory, it’s not Paul’s writings, it’s Johns.
 
Yes I see they feel its Johns writing just read the prologue again from my 1970 Nab bible and posted what it says in my last post. It made no reference to the mass.🙂
 
DFWChristian said:
Lots of ignorance here that I do not have the energy or time to respond to. It’s a shame so many of you are blinded by what a church tells you to think instead of using your brain to evaluate scripture. It’s not an allegory, it’s not Paul’s writings, it’s Johns.
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And you are not blinded by what your pastor tells you also? By his and your private interpretation, which forms and informs your tradition?

You say we are blinded by our church…but it is Christ’s church, led by the Pope.

Your church is led by your own pope…it is either your self or your pastor.
 
DFWChristian said:
It’s a shame so many of you are blinded by what a church tells you to think instead of using your brain to evaluate scripture…
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I try to let the Holy Spirit rather guide me in my understanding, instead of trying to rely on my own brain. I’ve found that we men often get things wrong on our own. Or do you believe the Holy Spirit cannot show you the truth through other people? That when God gives someone the right understanding and commands them to teach it, that others should not listen but go and try to figure it out themselves?
 
Luvtosew said:
Yes I see they feel its Johns writing just read the prologue again from my 1970 Nab bible and posted what it says in my last post. It made no reference to the mass.🙂
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Notice I described the view that Hahn had. You could probably find multiple other Catholic theologians that had other viewpoints. Hahn’s viewpoint is rather convincing however and he makes a lot of valid observations. Hahn also claims to have extensively used insights from the Early Church Fathers in his analysis and provides those sources. The Church does not subscribe to one particular view, but I believe it has declared the idea of the “rapture” as fundamentalists see it to be a heresy.
 
You shouldn’t take Revelation literally. It wasn’t written to give a specific play by play of the Apocalypse. It was written to A) note how Christ will be victiorious at the end of ages. Not specifically how it will happen, and B) to give the people whom John was writing to hope that Catholics would over come the Roman Emperor Nero. To write a book saying “Christ will defeat Nero” would mean instant death to the writer. But to use rich imagery such as a 7 headed dragon to refer to Nero, you sent your message to your followers, and passed it over the Roman’s heads.
 
DFWChristian said:
Howdy folks,

Let me clarify something. I don’t believe I said there was no scripture reading. There was one verse read and a nice story to elaborate but that was it. The scripture and story was about 5 minutes.

My point of contention is not the interpretation of Revelation because great scholars all differ on some verses. My problem was when someone providing a summary of the book tries to pursuade the reader that it is an allegory. Im not saying there are not allegories in the Bible, but when one tries to paint entire books as allegory then yes I have a problem.
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You must not have been paying much attention because there are at least 3 passages of scripture read at every Mass. At least 4 on Sunday. For example Today’s Reading.

I’m sorry, but one does not “read a memorized prayer”, and there are a lot of prayers in the Mass. If you had been paying attention, you would have heard the priest say several times, “Let us pray.” and what they read are some of the most beautiful and accurate Christian prayers anyone will ever find. I was n-C for about 35 years and so I am well familiar with the prayers at n-C services…which usually begin with “Father God…” and were only very rarely anywhere near the reverence and adoration that I find in the Mass.

The homily, which you mockingly refer to as “a nice story” is not meant to be like your “sermons” which are often more of a non infallible Bible study which takes up the bulk of your service time and which almost always ends in a “an altar call” (which is odd since you have no altars and no concept of sacrifice in your liturgy, unlike the early church. (See What Was Authentic Early Christian Worship Really Like?) That is when your preachers generally spend a while exhorting the people present to ask for prayer (“With every head bowed and every eye closed If you’ll just raise your hand right there where you are…”) and then to come forward and “accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior”, which is a concept nowhere found in the Bible.

The Catholic Church does not teach that all of Revelation is allegory. It does say, as it should, that it is apocalyptic literature and some parts are allegorical, some can been taken literally, and some are visionary which needs careful and prayerful consideration and interpretation, though those parts are very much like things “seen in a glass darkly” and may not become clear until they are fulfilled.

Let me suggest that you be less critical and biased in your exploration of the Catholic faith and much more attentive to what is going on and what is actually said. I assure you that you’ll learn a lot more.
 
DFWChristian said:
Lots of ignorance here that I do not have the energy or time to respond to. It’s a shame so many of you are blinded by what a church tells you to think instead of using your brain to evaluate scripture. It’s not an allegory, it’s not Paul’s writings, it’s Johns.
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Boy, you really are a model of Christian patience and charity aren’t you?

Blinded by the church? Yet we can support our beliefs from the Bible and you can only tell us that we must read our Bibles and make up our own interpretations along the way, like you and your preacher do. Yet that belief is not itself in the Bible, and I know this because I have researched it (by reading all 73 books in the Word of God for myself several times over and which I continue to do to this day.)

See “If anyone teaches/preaches something that is not in scripture” & It’s NOT in the Bible, okay? & It’s NOT in the Bible, okay? (Part II)

Win many souls with that attitude do ya? I doubt it, but I bet you satisfy yourself with many a “crushing argument” that you consider yourself to have won, having “witnessed” to us Catholics and presented the Gospel so that we might “come out of her” and be "saved’.

But is this what Our Lord commissioned His followers to do in the Gospels? Let’s take a look at what it actually says, okay?

Matthew 28: [18] And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. [19] Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.
 
Fragile said:
Most Protestants do not believe in “the rupture”, this is mostly relegated to fundamentalist evangelicals…they just seem to have a bigger megaphone! :okpeople:
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True, I apologize for lumping all Protestants together, it was late and I was typing fast. Please accept my apology if I offended.
 
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