Catholics VS Health Care in America: Morally Embarrassing

[Nate13]

But everyone has a right to receive healthcare. It is a fundamental human right that is denied throughout the world, especially in third world countries. No, we don’t deserve healthcare. We don’t deserve anything. It is all from the grace of God that we receive what we have. But why should we deny people a fundamental human right just because some people don’t want to help others and pay for their healthcare when they can’t pay for it themselves? That’s what I don’t understand, but ya know, .

First off please explain why you believe its a right for me to pay for your healthcare. Saying something is a right implies you deserve it lol. I have a right to receive a just wage for the work I do for example = I deserve to receive a just wage for the work I do…

 

[MindOverMatter2]

you can believe whatever you want, but without evidence and documentation it is as real as a fairy tale.

You can’t solve problems based on fairy tales.

But you are a hypocrite since you haven’t provided any evidence at all that society and the economy doesn’t have an influence on people sense of worth, which can lead to drug taking and insanity. People don’t just go insane for no reason. Its just common-sense. I am not saying anything unreasonable. Your refusal to acknowledge this even as a possibility only reveals to me that you are biased, and that you refuse to acknowledge anything that would mean the rich and the wealthy and the business owner taking responsibility for other people needs.

 

[anthony022071]

They are already in a position where the market does not respect their right to health and dignity. By taxing the rich and the well-off, they will get what they need.

Government taxation does not guarantee that the poor and needy will get what they need. They get shabby treatment at shabby government run hospitals. They are put on long waiting lists. They are not paying for their own health care and so they have no control over the services they get or when they get them. Patients are lined up in beds in the hallways and there is a foul smell. The hospitals do not feel obliged to treat them with respect and concern and to maintain an orderly,clean environment. Are you more interested in taxing the rich than helping the poor and needy?

 

[MindOverMatter2]

We may not be directly responsible for government corruption,but we should not foster the expansion of government power that intrudes into the lives of the people. If there is some social need that should be taken care of,it is proper for the Church and community organizations and families and individuals to take care of it,not a government bureaucracy. Whether or not we let people die for lack of care is a separate thing from government health care. It is not an either-or choice. The Church can indeed provide for everything if Catholics are motivated by faith and mercy to help the needy. The Church is not just a bureaucratic institution,it is also the laity,and the laypersons who have money to spare or who are doctors and nurses can provide for their needy neighbors.

The government is as indifferent to the welfare of people as the capitalist market. Government health care is not about social justice,it is about improper government power over people. If you are wholly dependent upon the government for your personal needs,then the government can mistreat you,and you will not be able to escape from it or hold it accountable,as you could with a private business that you are paying.

What sense does it make to want the government to take money from people to provide services that they could pay for themselves?

Its evident now that you have completely ignored everything that has been said. When the market cannot provide for human need the state has an obligation to provide through taxes. This idea that such a tax would be an improper use of government power is an unsubstantiated myth often shared by those who do not want to part with their money.

You can ignore this all you want, its not going to change reality.

 

[someperson555]

The American healthcare system is great if you’re healthy. If you’re not healthy, well, better be rich. Medical debt is the #1 cause of bankruptcy in this country. Incidentally, there are 0 bankruptcies due to medical debt in the EU.

“And lo, Jesus asked the leper, hast thou met thine deductible? hast thine paid the HMO premiums? Is thee aware payment must be rendered at time of service? And at this, the leper went away for the Lord was out of network.”

How the Gospels would look if the Republican party wrote it.

spot on

 

[Nate13]

Its evident now that you have completely ignored everything that has been said. When the market cannot provide for human need the state has an obligation to provide through taxes. This idea that such a tax would be an improper use of government power is an unsubstantiated myth often shared by those who do not want to part with their money.

You can ignore this all you want, its not going to change reality.

Sounds like the U.S.S.R. They had lots of rights to if you have ever looked. They had a great right to work law.

Great right to health care law too.

Article 121
Citizens of the U.S.S.R have the right to maintenance in old age and also in case of sickness or loss of capacity to work. This right is ensured by the extensive development of social insurance of workers and employees at state expense, free medical service for the working people and the provision of a wide network of health resorts for the use of the working people.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

Government taxation does not guarantee that the poor and needy will get what they need. They get shabby treatment at shabby government run hospitals. They are put on long waiting lists. They are not paying for their own health care and so they have no control over the services they get or when they get them. Are you more interested in taxing the rich than helping the poor and needy?

Excuses excuses. More unsubstantiated myths. Well let me tell you this; its evident to anybody [Moderator Edited uncharitable comment] that taxation is more of a guarantee for the poor than leaving it in the hands of the market place, a market that evidently cannot provide for everybody.

Are you more concerned with keeping your money than being taxed so that the poor can get genuine healthcare? The reality is, compared to what they have now, they are better of if the government provides healthcare through tax. You have provided no facts that necessitates other wise other than a spook story about how the government will not provide good health care.

I can’t wait to hear another lame excuse for why you shouldn’t be taxed

 

[davidv]

Excuses excuses. More unsubstantiated myths. Well let me tell you this; its evident to anybody who actually uses their brain for something more than counting dollars and hoarding, that taxation is more of a guarantee for the poor than leaving it in the hands of the market place, a market that evidently cannot provide for everybody.

Are you more concerned with keeping your money than being taxed so that the poor can get genuine healthcare?

I can’t wait to hear another lame excuse for why you shouldn’t be taxed

It is clear from the lack evidence provided in this thread that one unsubstantiated myth is that a government run health care system is the best solution to improving the care for those least able to afford it.

 

[tonyrey]

We already have access to health care for all citizens. Even illegal aliens can get health care.

At a price… in direct contradiction of Pope Benedict XVI’s statement that it is the moral responsibility of nations to guarantee access to health care for all of their citizens,** regardless of **social and economic status or their ability to pay."

 

[Nate13]

At a price… in direct contradiction of Pope Benedict XVI’s statement that it is the moral responsibility of nations to guarantee access to health care for all of their citizens, regardless of social and economic status or their ability to pay."

An idea that I have heard thrown around is that you allow all doctors to write off tax wise a certain amount of charitable care they give in taxes. Thus you can give doctors incentive to be charitable and help all those in need.

Please link the entirety of the quote. Also note access to healthcare is what he says. It does not say all countries are required to give healthcare to all citizens for free.

 

[cyrusthegreat]

I said that America is not perfect. Every generation of every society has sinned all the way back to the garden of Eden. Still. America’s generosity and the generosity of it’s people is unprecedented.

History will help us understand the nature of the “needless” wars. I do know that having been attacked on Sept 11th, a response was warranted and appropriate.

As for materialism and greed…I do acknowledge that there are individuals who possess and utilize power for personal gain. When people talk about oil being the source of greed, one should take into account the fact that oil is the lifeblood of the world’s economy. Imagine what would happen if all of the world’s oil were shut off tomorrow. It would drive nations into chaos, yes, maybe even wars.

Perhaps, one should consider giving world leaders a little bit of the benefit of the doubt. Maybe, just maybe they had insights in stabilizing a region, that if left unchecked, may have plunged the world into economic ruin.

Oh, and Hiroshima…You sit here as an armchair quarterback and take shots for hard decisions that had to be made for which there was no perceived positive outcome. Right or wrong, these leaders had the courage and skill to make the choices they felt best served their people knowing that one day they would be picked apart by someone who has nothing at stake. Just like Obama, apologizing to the world…

I was with you, cheering you on, right the way up until your last sentence, and then I sensed animosity in your comment, as do so many Catholics seem to express towards Obama. I know that some even in our clergy have all but given permission to feel this way, but this is wrong.

Believe it if you can, but opposition to the Iraq war had run high in Europe. When Obama took office, there was some mending in order. You should also know that Obama never used a word even similar to “apologize” in what Karl Rove called “Obama’s Apology Tour”. This was conservative propaganda. A ploy designed to drive a wedge between Obama and the public. It was extremely successful even though it was not true. Tell a lie often enough and it will be believed. Refer to Fact Checker, Obama’s Apology Tour.

… and if you can’t believe it, know that Pope John Paul II made an unprecedented apology for sins of the Catholic Church on March 12, 2000. John Paul was seeking repentance for sins that may have been committed over the past 2,000 years in the name of the Church.

It is titled “Memory and Reconciliation: The church and faults of the past.” It was approved by Pope John Paul II, and was written by Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI.

Many leaders of the Vatican Curia opposed his action, being concerned that a confession of past errors might cause many Catholics to wonder whether the church is currently engaged in sinful behavior that will require some future pope to apologize for present-day sins. However, John Paul believed that repentance would transform the church and enable it to lead the world into a “new springtime of Christianity.” He was able to overrule the Vatican Curia.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

It is clear from the lack evidence provided in this thread that one unsubstantiated myth is that a government run health care system is the best solution to improving the care for those least able to afford it.

1. The market is not doing it, since it cannot guarantee a good affordable service for the poor. Only the rich.
2. Charity is not doing. Since while charity can help in part, it cannot guarantee that the physical dignity of all human beings will be fulfilled consistently.
3. The government has an obligation to tax in-order to provide services that are needed. A free health service is needed. Systematic taxation evidently and clearly has a better chance of providing that service, when compared to the other two options. And its not like people can’t still give to charity on top of the fact of being taxed. You can still feel holy.

That’s not unsubstantiated, that’s just logic and common-sense.

 

[vsedriver]

But you are a hypocrite since you haven’t provided any evidence at all that society and the economy doesn’t have an influence on people sense of worth, which can lead to drug taking and insanity.

 

[davidv]

At a price… in direct contradiction of Pope Benedict XVI’s statement that it is the moral responsibility of nations to guarantee access to health care for all of their citizens,** regardless of **social and economic status or their ability to pay."

How will a historically inefficient bureaucratic goverment provide a better product at a lower price? The evidence seems to indicate that a government run program delivers an inferior product with a higher price.

 

[anthony022071]

Its evident now that you have completely ignored everything that has been said. When the market cannot provide for human need the state has an obligation to provide through taxes. This idea that such a tax would be an improper use of government power is an unsubstantiated myth often shared by those who do not want to part with their money.

You can ignore this all you want, its not going to change reality.

I never said that the market system is adequate to provide health care for all people. But the government does not have a natural obligation to provide health care. It is the natural obligation of individuals,families,hospitals and the Church. Taxation has nothing to do with it. There is no need for the government to tax citizens for services that that they can provide themselves. And by the way,the government does not have a special reserve of tax money that goes to health care. The same is true of Social Security. Funds are fungible. We have no control over how the government uses tax money. And I did not say that such a tax would be an improper use of government power,I said that it is improper for the government to be providing for people’s personal needs.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

I never said that people go insane for no reason. In fact, I said mental illness is caused by a number of things such as genetic disorder, birth defect, accident etc. Yet none of those causes have anything to do with society or the nature of the system.

None of them at all? How convenient. To bad my own experiences tell me otherwise. But I guess some people are born to suffer in silence while their oppressor pats himself on the back for making the poor poorer and the rich richer. But hey, its just business.

 

[Nate13]

I never said that the market system is adequate to provide health care for all people. But the government does not have a natural obligation to provide health care. It is the obligation of individuals,families,hospitals and the Church. Taxation has nothing to do with it. There is no need for the government to tax citizens for services that that they can provide themselves. And by the way,the government does not have a special reserve of tax money that goes to health care. The same is true of Social Security. Funds are fungible. We have no control over how the government uses tax money.

Exactly. The problem is the mistaken notion that a lot of people have as to what the responsibility of the government is as it was created to be in this country.

 

[davidv]

1. The market is not doing it, since it cannot guarantee a good affordable service for the poor. Only the rich.
2. Charity is not doing. Since while charity can help in part, it cannot guarantee that the physical dignity of all human beings will be fulfilled consistently.
3. The government has an obligation to tax in-order to provide services that are needed. A free health service is needed. Systematic taxation evidently and clearly has a better chance of providing that service, when compared to the other two options. And its not like people can’t still give to charity on top of the fact of being taxed. You can still feel holy.

That’s not unsubstantiated, that’s just logic and common-sense.

Bad logic.

1. Neither the market, nor charity, are complete failures at providing care.
2. It does not follow that because there are flaws in the current system that the proposed system solves them.
3. The new system has to be evaluated on its own merits. (I have not a see rational rebuttal of legitimate criticisms of the proposed system.)

 

[MindOverMatter2]

Exactly. The problem is the mistaken notion that a lot of people have as to what the responsibility of the government is as it was created to be in this country.

A state has a responsibility to the needs of people no-matter who they are.

 

[MindOverMatter2]

Bad logic.

bad assertion.

1. Neither the market, nor charity, are complete failures at providing care.

This is strawman. I didn’t say they don’t help. I said that they are insufficient and cannot by themselves provide for every-bodies needs consistently. Which is evident to any honest person.

1. It does not follow that because there are flaws in the current system that the proposed system solves them.

The rich get sufficient health care; the poor don’t. Only a taxing system can solve that.

1. The new system has to be evaluated on its own merits. (I have not a see rational rebuttal of legitimate criticisms of the proposed system.)

They are not legitimate rebuttals. The state or any state for that matter has an obligation to provide sufficient health care for those who need it. Its not a question. Its a fact.