Catholics VS Health Care in America: Morally Embarrassing

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MindOverMatter2 said:
Assuming the public vote is always a valid regulator of secular law.

I am against it, but i think its naive to thing that such a monstrosity can be change through voting. It seems to me that public vote has very little to do with the right to abortion so long as it is presented as a human right.

However i think people should certainly march against the killing of a born baby since a baby is a visible object that everyone can see, and perhaps you would have a more reasonable chance of success. Although, i must say that, a secular society has no natural reason to view any difference between a born baby and one that is growing in a womb.

These horrors seem to me to be the natural and inevitable result of the philosophy on which American society is based. Like i said you are not a theocracy.
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Are you twisting or not understanding what I said? This was NOT voted on but forced down everyone’s throat by Obama. It was NOT voted on.
 
dmelosi said:
Are you twisting or not understanding what I said? This was NOT voted on but forced down everyone’s throat by Obama. It was NOT voted on.
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In the first place, why do you look at Obama as anything but a puppet. He is not running the show; and your votes evidently have no relevance in terms secular moral definitions. Your whole life you have been taking it down the throat, and yet you still think America is good and should give a dame about anything other than what makes money and profit.
 
dmelosi said:
Are you twisting or not understanding what I said? This was NOT voted on but forced down everyone’s throat by Obama. It was NOT voted on.
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Did Obama declare his plans before being elected?
 
MindOverMatter2 said:
In the first place, why do you look at Obama as anything but a puppet. He is not running the show; and your votes evidently have no relevance in terms secular moral definitions. Your whole life you have been taking it down the throat, and yet you still think America is good and should give a dame about anything other than what makes money and profit.
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It is very clear through your posts that you really have no idea about America other than what someone has been ramming down your throat.
 
dmelosi said:
It is very clear through your posts that you really have no idea about America other than what someone has been ramming down your throat.
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What ever you think i know, you cannot deny that I at the very least know what you are telling me; and you just told me that the killing of babies was not publicly voted on; therefore commonsense should tell you that these matters have nothing to do with the public vote.

Its not difficult.
 
MindOverMatter2 said:
What ever you think i know, you cannot deny that I at the very least know what you are telling me; and you just told me that the killing of babies was not publicly voted on; therefore commonsense should tell you that these matters have nothing to do with the public vote.

Its not difficult.
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I am having trouble following your double talk.

First, I am talking about how anti Catholic Obama is proving to be.

Second, public voting has everything to do with abortion or as you call abortion, “these matters”.

Third, I am saying that this health care law as it stands is morally embarrassing to all those that follow Christ’s teaching, or if not it should be.
 
cargau said:
Yes, there is a time and a place for acknowledging our collective misdeeds. I struggle with the thinking that America is the cause of all the world’s ills. And, America is virtually always wrong. In February, 2008, Michelle Obama claimed that “For the first time in my adult lifetime, I am proud of America”, when referring to her husband’s run for the presidency.

Really??? Not once have you been proud, Michelle??? In spite of JPII’s apology, I suspect that in his adult life he was frequently proud of the Church.

As I said before, America is not perfect. She has (and continuesto sin) sinned. Still, there is much that America has done on behalf of the world that is admirable.
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Perhaps you are not black, and if you are perhaps you are very young. I’m an old white guy, but I remember the days, growing up in the south, when black people went to the back of the bus. Even then, if there was no seat for a white person, a black was expect to give up their seat to a white person. There were public drinking fountains. one marked for blacks and one for whites. Public restrooms were marked women, men and blacks. If there were no third restroom signed for blacks, they had to go somewhere else. A black person didn’t come through the front door of a restaurant. They had to come in through the back and eat in the kitchen. This was a social reality, if not for Michelle, for her parents or grandparents, but there can be no doubt that she was and is very much aware of this historical fact. It wasn’t so long ago. I can only imagine how she must have felt, when she realized that a life time of hope was coming true. Perhaps in her mind, the massive outpouring of support for Barack Obama was not only a call for political change in America, but rather it was perceived as change in America’s perception of a black person. No longer just an athlete, but an intellectual, capable of becoming president of the United States. Perhaps, from the perspective of a white person, her choice of words could have been better. Perhaps, at that time she was also unaware, if not naive that political adversaries would dissect her every utterance, to be construed as something negative.

American is not the cause of the words “ills”, nor are we completely blameless.
 
cyrusthegreat said:
Perhaps you are not black, and if you are perhaps you are very young. I’m an old white guy, but I remember the days, growing up in the south, when black people went to the back of the bus. Even then, if there was no seat for a white person, a black was expect to give up their seat to a white person. There were public drinking fountains. one marked for blacks and one for whites. Public restrooms were marked women, men and blacks. If there were no third restroom signed for blacks, they had to go somewhere else. A black person didn’t come through the front door of a restaurant. They had to come in through the back and eat in the kitchen. This was a social reality, if not for Michelle, for her parents or grandparents, but there can be no doubt that she was and is very much aware of this historical fact. It wasn’t so long ago. I can only imagine how she must have felt, when she realized that a life time of hope was coming true. Perhaps in her mind, the massive outpouring of support for Barack Obama was not only a call for political change in America, but rather it was perceived as change in America’s perception of a black person. No longer just an athlete, but an intellectual, capable of becoming president of the United States. Perhaps, from the perspective of a white person, her choice of words could have been better. Perhaps, at that time she was also unaware, if not naive that political adversaries would dissect her every utterance, to be construed as something negative.

American is not the cause of the words “ills”, nor are we completely blameless.
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The hard fact of the matter is that this president, white or black is adamantly pro abortion. There is no hope, zero…for the unborn he. And if Obama had his way, as he has argued the infants born alive act, he wants many of those born killed. This is not an issue of white or black, it is the blatant pro death policies he is cramming down everyones’ throat.
 
cyrusthegreat said:
Perhaps you are not black, and if you are perhaps you are very young. I’m an old white guy, but I remember the days, growing up in the south, when black people went to the back of the bus. Even then, if there was no seat for a white person, a black was expect to give up their seat to a white person. There were public drinking fountains. one marked for blacks and one for whites. Public restrooms were marked women, men and blacks. If there were no third restroom signed for blacks, they had to go somewhere else. A black person didn’t come through the front door of a restaurant. They had to come in through the back and eat in the kitchen. This was a social reality, if not for Michelle, for her parents or grandparents, but there can be no doubt that she was and is very much aware of this historical fact. It wasn’t so long ago. I can only imagine how she must have felt, when she realized that a life time of hope was coming true. Perhaps in her mind, the massive outpouring of support for Barack Obama was not only a call for political change in America, but rather it was perceived as change in America’s perception of a black person. No longer just an athlete, but an intellectual, capable of becoming president of the United States. Perhaps, from the perspective of a white person, her choice of words could have been better. Perhaps, at that time she was also unaware, if not naive that political adversaries would dissect her every utterance, to be construed as something negative.

American is not the cause of the words “ills”, nor are we completely blameless.
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normally i hate conservatives, however this is the one issue i agree with them on. look we cant keep looking at the civil rights era and using that to instill guilt in americans. yes, racism is bad and we americans are guilty of it no doubt. but just look at other races and their racist crimes. look at the chinese, they are not exactly the loving tolerant multiculturalists either, look at the arabic history of racism and slavery. look at the japanese extermination of the indigenous Ainu people. the list goes on. so america is not the only racist country in the world.
 
dmelosi said:
The hard fact of the matter is that this president, white or black is adamantly pro abortion. There is no hope, zero…for the unborn he. And if Obama had his way, as he has argued the infants born alive act, he wants many of those born killed. This is not an issue of white or black, it is the blatant pro death policies he is cramming down everyones’ throat.
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that is one absurd association fallacy. first of all, how is it that you think that obama is in support of free healthcare? he is NOT. he is a hyper capitalist just like your beloved george bush. second, just because someone supports national healthcare doesnt mean they also support abortion. and third, why are you crying that obama is pro-death? its not like abortion is illegal now, you can get an abortion at anytime, no questions asked. so theres NO POINT in opposing the bill because its “pro abortion”, since abortion is already legal in the USA.
 
What happened to the post?

No point in opposing it because of abortion? Do you understand the Catholic teaching on it?
 
MindOverMatter2 said:
Why would any Catholic be Against Free Health Care?

Am i the only Catholic that finds this idea Morally Embarrassing?
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Go to any other developed country in the world and ask Catholics if they prefer free health care. It will be a resounding yes
 
Gift_from_God said:
Go to any other developed country in the world and ask Catholics if they prefer free health care. It will be a resounding yes
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I don’t know of 1 person that is against free health care. It’s too bad there isn’t such a thing.
 
This whole thread hinges upon the fact that only in America Catholics are divided about health care. Just saying. :cool:
 
Swiss_Guy said:
This whole thread hinges upon the fact that only in America Catholics are divided about health care. Just saying. :cool:
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We also went from zero to hero in 200 years. Maybe there is something to our way of thinking 😉 We also are one of the most religious countries still by far.

ur.umich.edu/0304/Nov24_03/15.shtml
About 46 percent of American adults attend church at least once a week, not counting weddings, funerals and christenings, compared with 14 percent of adults in Great Britain, 8 percent in France, 7 percent in Sweden and 4 percent in Japan.
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Moreover, 58 percent of Americans say they often think about the meaning and purpose of life, compared with 25 percent of British, 26 percent of Japanese and 31 percent of West Germans, the study says.
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And yes, I did just equivocate states sponsored health care and how religious a country is 😃
 
Nate13 said:
We also went from zero to hero in 200 years. Maybe there is something to our way of thinking 😉 We also are one of the most religious countries still by far.

ur.umich.edu/0304/Nov24_03/15.shtml

And yes, I did just equivocate states sponsored health care and how religious a country is 😃
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Doesn’t prove causality. 🤷 On that basis, religion = bad healthcare if you take the entire middle east into account.

I wouldn’t say you started from 0. Britain spent an awful lot of money in giving you lot a good start in life, an like a unthanked parent we sit back waiting for money back, while teenage US keeps coming back asking for money, weapons, etc. Sigh.
 
MindOverMatter2 said:
Obama has no choice. You do not live in a theocracy, therefore you necessarily live in a society that has a plurality of moral values and religious beliefs. Therefore Christian theology and the Christian conscience does not come first in defining the definition of legal right and wrong, and has no relevance when determining secular law.

What the individual Catholic employer should fight for is the right not to provide those things which conflict with his conscience.
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👍 Irrefutable!
 
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